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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi,

I'm looking for batteries for my first EV. Normally I'd go with
floodies for my first, but it's a motorcycle, so I think I should go
with sealed to avoid huge mess problems. I'm thinking 6x 12V AGM
batteries in series, for higher voltage/lower currents. I will be
using a BMS (possibly homebrew, microcontroller-based).

I'd like some advice on good/bad AGM's. Most of the battery stuff I've
looked at is flooded. I looked at the Optima's, and they're expensive!
$230 for a 12V 75Ah battery! Are all good AGM's that expensive?

Also, I notice that even the "deep cycle" Optima's have huge CCA. Is
this just because of the difference between AGM and floodie, or is it
really a dual-purpose battery that isn't as good for deep cycle?

Thanks for the help!
-Morgan LaMoore

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Morgan LaMoore wrote:

> I looked at the Optima's, and they're expensive!
> $230 for a 12V 75Ah battery! Are all good AGM's that expensive?

Yep, pretty much; if you want to play, you've got to pay!

What you are paying for with the Optimas (or Orbitals or Hawker/Odyssey)
is proven ability to shrug off high discharge rates. If your
application isn't going to subject the batteries to high currents, then
you have the option of considering some of the other AGMs out there.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
<<< "Also, I notice that even the "deep cycle" Optima's have huge CCA. Is
this just because of the difference between AGM and floodie, or is it
really a dual-purpose battery that isn't as good for deep cycle?"

They say that you should never, ever, discharge an AGM more than 50%,
unlike a flooded golf cart battery that can safely go down to 80%.
AGMs have alot of power, but make a sacrifice for range, and cost
alot. >>>

Hawkers are rated for 400 cycles at *100% DOD* (can't get any deeper
than that) and 500 cycles at 80%. The starved electrolyte means you
get a little less energy per pound and pay more per pound of lead, but
with proper management, they're great.

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
AGMS are a little more expensive at the wholesale cost, but because they
are used in lower quantities and are considered a specialty, I have
witnessed huge markups on the retail side.

When I bought my orbitals the going retail was $149.00 but I got them
for 10% over wholesale or *98 each. (now they list around $170)

I was lucky to find an exide distributer who ran the purchase through a
dealer in bakersfield who deals with golf carts and NEV's. I was able to
pick them up at the warehouse here in town. Find a warehouse near you
and go talk to them. (of course, i was buying 25 batteries, which helps)

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
With AGMs, to extend life, it is a good idea to get a BMS (Battery
Management System) as well. Mr. Rudman makes them
(Manzanitamicro.com), Lee Hart has published plans for a system (check
the archive for link), and Belktronix sells them as part of his kit.

--T

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
while we are talking about AGMs i have a few
questions: i'm currently planning on using three 12
volt 55 amphour [20hr] in parallel effectively making
one 12 volt 165 amphour battery and i will have four
of these in series making a 48 volt system.

my question is will an individual 12 volt 5 amp
charger be sufficient to charge the battery? i was
thinking of a soneil charger?

also if i have four of these batteries each will their
own charger will the individual chargers keep the pack
balanced?

--- Timothy Balcer <[email protected]> wrote:

> With AGMs, to extend life, it is a good idea to get
> a BMS (Battery
> Management System) as well. Mr. Rudman makes them
> (Manzanitamicro.com), Lee Hart has published plans
> for a system (check
> the archive for link), and Belktronix sells them as
> part of his kit.
>
> --T
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
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Albuquerque, NM
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1221
http://geocities.com/solarcookingman



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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks for all the advice, guys! The Hawkers look pretty nice; I'm
going to see if I can get some for a good price.

Also, I definitely will be using a BMS with them.

-Morgan LaMoore

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
> Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 11:36:55 -0500
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Advice on AGM batteries?
>
> Thanks for all the advice, guys! The Hawkers look pretty nice; I'm
> going to see if I can get some for a good price.
>
> Also, I definitely will be using a BMS with them.
>
If nothing else you should look into making some of Lee Hart's Zener regs. =
They are simple, inexpensive, and can really help you get the batteries ch=
arged correctly.

damon
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
If I followed your description correctly then you are planning on using 12 batteries total configured for 48 volts. If this is correct you could try just 4 5 amp soneils but it will charge verrrrry slow, like 32 hours for a full recharge and some AGM batteries seem to need a high amp charge to keep them happy which this would not provide. You could also use 12 Soneils which would give take 1/3 of the time to charge, but is still not the kind of amps that some AGMs seem to prefer.

I'm assuming this is going to be a motorcycle, and you want to stay at 48 volts because that is what you are planning for a controller. A motorcycle with 600 pounds of AGM batteries running at only 48 volts is going to be tough to get going faster than 40 - 45 mph but it will have very good range. If you want to run at freeway speeds and you have not already bought a controller I would go with a 72 volt model. You could also get a 144 volt controller and use a real EV sized charger which would allow you to recharge in just a couple of hours.

damon


> Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 09:14:08 -0700
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Advice on AGM batteries?
>
>
> while we are talking about AGMs i have a few
> questions: i'm currently planning on using three 12
> volt 55 amphour [20hr] in parallel effectively making
> one 12 volt 165 amphour battery and i will have four
> of these in series making a 48 volt system.
>
> my question is will an individual 12 volt 5 amp
> charger be sufficient to charge the battery? i was
> thinking of a soneil charger?
>
> also if i have four of these batteries each will their
> own charger will the individual chargers keep the pack
> balanced?
>
> --- Timothy Balcer wrote:
>
>> With AGMs, to extend life, it is a good idea to get
>> a BMS (Battery
>> Management System) as well. Mr. Rudman makes them
>> (Manzanitamicro.com), Lee Hart has published plans
>> for a system (check
>> the archive for link), and Belktronix sells them as
>> part of his kit.
>>
>> --T
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
>
> Albuquerque, NM
> http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1221
> http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
> http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Morgan LaMoore
> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 12:37 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Advice on AGM batteries?
>
> Thanks for all the advice, guys! The Hawkers look pretty nice; I'm
> going to see if I can get some for a good price.
>
> Also, I definitely will be using a BMS with them.
>
> -Morgan LaMoore
>

Speaking of Hawker batteries........ I was on the Plasma Boy's site this morning and I clicked into his sponsorship section.
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/sponsors.php

>From there I made my way to Aerobatteries.
http://www.aerobatteries.com/

It is quite apparent to me that Aerobatteries are not only a proud sponsor of the White Zombie but are generally favorable towards ALL EV's. I plan to do business with them, because of their apparent level of support for EV's.

http://www.aerobatteries.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=3&zenid=7b62ca0d1ba2b84fafe722b7717957bd



--Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> Is it OK to use floodies in a motorcycle?

Most motorcycle batteries *are* flooded. But they provide a vent hose
and well-sealed caps that won't leak if the bike falls over.

You can use flooded batteries in an electric motorcycle if you take the
same precautions. You'll just need to replace or improve the seal on the
vent caps, and add a vent hose.

>> They say that you should never, ever, discharge an AGM more than 50%,
>> unlike a flooded golf cart battery that can safely go down to 80%.

No; this isn't the case. AGM deep-cycle batteries can be discharged just
as deeply as flooded deep-cycle batteries. In both cases, you shorten
their life though. The best total energy delivered over life (lowest
cost per mile) occurs somewhere between 50% and 80% depth of discharge.

--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net


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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
What is this groups opinion of the DEKA 9A31?



Thank you,

Dave Delman
1981 Electric DeLorean Project



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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
They were good in my truck, until I murdered a couple of them. I saved the rest and went to floodies until I come up with better
battery management. The PowerCheq balancers weren't quite up to the task of balancing 100AH batteries. But the Deka 9A31
Intimidators put every bit of the 1000 Cranking Amp rating in their spec sheet. They were less expensive too than similar size
AGM's. 1.5 years ago I pid $140 ea when the Optimas were peaking over $190-$200 each. Although I only got ~4K miles before a
couple petered out, I bet the rest would have pulled the truck another couple K if I put on proper charge management. I suspect
that although they state that they are dual use batteries, they are still really designed for starting batteries. Big Rigs are
their main market. Thay're advertised as "Dual Use" meaning starting and Deep Cycle. I just don't think the emphasis of their
performance is in cycling though. They will deep cycle fine, just not as many times as the flooded GC's. That may or may not be
true with the other similar size AGMs, but its a lot of money to bank on if you're looking for longevity.

Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
> Behalf Of [email protected]
> Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 3:42 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Advice on AGM batteries?
>
>
>
>
> What is this groups opinion of the DEKA 9A31?
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Dave Delman
> 1981 Electric DeLorean Project
>
>
>
> ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
> _______________________________________________
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
On 25 Aug 2007 at 23:12, Mike Willmon wrote:

> They're [Deka Intimidators] advertised as "Dual Use" meaning starting and
> Deep Cycle.

In flooded marine batteries, "dual use" means "useless for EVs." They're
barely even suitable for trolling.

I checked East Penn's data sheet for their Dominator gel (8Gnn) and
Intimidator AGM (9Ann) batteries. The cycle life chart tells the story :

Capacity Withdrawn Gel AGM
------------------ --- ---
100% 450 150
80% 600 200
50% 1000 370
25% 2100 925
10% 5700 3100

I probably wouldn't try to use Intimidators in a road EV.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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