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Discussion Starter #1
I have a few TS 424E Trace inverters that are the export version (230V 50Hz) and
was wondering if anyone on the list had ever taken one of these apart and
converted it to output 120v 60Hz? I know I can use them as is for lighting and
stuff that has brushes but I would like to be able to use one or two for a
portable power project including charging an e-bike but also able to run
synchronous motors and computers without too much monkey motion. I probably
should just sell them on E-bay and buy the correct one but figured I would query
the list first. David Chapman.




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Discussion Starter #2
David Chapman wrote:
> I have a few TS 424E Trace inverters that are the export version (230V 50Hz) and
> was wondering if anyone on the list had ever taken one of these apart and
> converted it to output 120v 60Hz? I know I can use them as is for lighting and
> stuff that has brushes but I would like to be able to use one or two for a
> portable power project including charging an e-bike but also able to run
> synchronous motors and computers without too much monkey motion. I probably
> should just sell them on E-bay and buy the correct one but figured I would query
> the list first. David Chapman.
>
Computers and most chargers are universal input, so you could still use
it with those.

Cory

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Discussion Starter #3
Except for an old alarm clock with a synchronus motor in the clock,
everything I owned worked "Fine' in northern Japan at 120 v. 50 Hz on my
last visit.
Regards,
Dennis Miles. PS I Liked Dr.Asimov and I met him once at St.Petersburg
University where I was a student in the 70's, He lived on St.Pete
Beach...("I Robot") iasimovian..
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Chapman <[email protected]> wrote:

> I have a few TS 424E Trace inverters that are the export version (230V
> 50Hz) and
> was wondering if anyone on the list had ever taken one of these apart and
> converted it to output 120v 60Hz? I know I can use them as is for lighting
> and
> stuff that has brushes but I would like to be able to use one or two for a
> portable power project including charging an e-bike but also able to run
> synchronous motors and computers without too much monkey motion. I
> probably
> should just sell them on E-bay and buy the correct one but figured I would
> query
> the list first. David Chapman.
>
>
>
>
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>



--
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I or (813) 434 - 3884 (I think word phone
numbers can be fun and good mnemonics aid memory.)
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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks for the "input" Dennis. I know I am probably over thinking this but I am
building a fairly ambitious portable PV charger / power supply and want to "do
it right" upfront rather than start out compromising too much. Hate to be 100
miles from anywhere and find something I counted on would not work correctly or
got damaged by wrong voltage. + my table saw and similar tools all like 120V.
Dennis Berube suggested about the same thing.


I envy you meeting Dr. Asimov. Never got to myself although he and a few others
(Heinlein, Smith, Clark, Burroughs, Verne etc) greatly influenced my life. Kinda
chagrined too as I was born in St. Pete and lived in Seminole until `74.


I am kinda curious about what is inside one of these, I think I will open one up
and see what makes it "tick". Xantrex does not offer schematics or even
replacement parts and the warrantee is long over so no great loss. I was
thinking of using two of these for my project so I should probably just target
looking for a bigger more modern unit with better features anyway. They have
come waaaaayyyy down in price since I acquired these. David Chapman.





________________________________
From: Dennis Miles <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, November 1, 2010 9:15:04 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone ever hacked a trace inverter?

Except for an old alarm clock with a synchronus motor in the clock,
everything I owned worked "Fine' in northern Japan at 120 v. 50 Hz on my
last visit.
Regards,
Dennis Miles. PS I Liked Dr.Asimov and I met him once at St.Petersburg
University where I was a student in the 70's, He lived on St.Pete
Beach...("I Robot") iasimovian..
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

David Chapman <[email protected]> wrote:

> I have a few TS 424E Trace inverters that are the export version (230V
> 50Hz) and
> was wondering if anyone on the list had ever taken one of these apart and
> converted it to output 120v 60Hz? I know I can use them as is for lighting
> and
> stuff that has brushes but I would like to be able to use one or two for a
> portable power project including charging an e-bike but also able to run
> synchronous motors and computers without too much monkey motion. I
> probably
> should just sell them on E-bay and buy the correct one but figured I would
> query
> the list first. David Chapman.
>
>
>
>
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>f
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>



--
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I or (813) 434 - 3884 (I think word phone
numbers can be fun and good mnemonics aid memory.)
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Discussion Starter #5
Hi David,
Yes they influenced me to a career in electricity/electronics. We used
to put in the school brochure that Loving Science Fiction was an indication
of the ability to succeed in electronics.
You may need a transformer to drop the voltage to 120VAC For that AC
motor but the 50Hz only lowers the RPM by 16% and lessened Inductive
reactance results in somewhat increased motor current and increased IR drop
(Resistive heating)but not an excessive amount. In the saw motor.
I moved from Pennsylvania in 1959, went to Madeira middle school the we
moved to old NorthEast and in 62-63 I was at St.Pete High, and in 63-64 and
64-65 I attended Dixie M. Hollins , studying Electronics. Eventually my life
led me to P-Tec in Clearwater in 1981 and I taught Electronics,
Electromechanical for 18 years, retiring in 1998.
Regards,
Dennis Miles
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Chapman <[email protected]> wrote:

> Thanks for the "input" Dennis. I know I am probably over thinking this but
> I am
> building a fairly ambitious portable PV charger / power supply and want to
> "do
> it right" upfront rather than start out compromising too much. Hate to be
> 100
> miles from anywhere and find something I counted on would not work
> correctly or
> got damaged by wrong voltage. + my table saw and similar tools all like
> 120V.
> Dennis Berube suggested about the same thing.
>
>
> I envy you meeting Dr. Asimov. Never got to myself although he and a few
> others
> (Heinlein, Smith, Clark, Burroughs, Verne etc) greatly influenced my life.
> Kinda
> chagrined too as I was born in St. Pete and lived in Seminole until `74.
>
>
> I am kinda curious about what is inside one of these, I think I will open
> one up
> and see what makes it "tick". Xantrex does not offer schematics or even
> replacement parts and the warrantee is long over so no great loss. I was
> thinking of using two of these for my project so I should probably just
> target
> looking for a bigger more modern unit with better features anyway. They
> have
> come waaaaayyyy down in price since I acquired these. David Chapman.
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Dennis Miles <[email protected]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> Sent: Mon, November 1, 2010 9:15:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone ever hacked a trace inverter?
>
> Except for an old alarm clock with a synchronus motor in the clock,
> everything I owned worked "Fine' in northern Japan at 120 v. 50 Hz on my
> last visit.
> Regards,
> Dennis Miles. PS I Liked Dr.Asimov and I met him once at St.Petersburg
> University where I was a student in the 70's, He lived on St.Pete
> Beach...("I Robot") iasimovian..
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 10:25 PM, David Chapman <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > I have a few TS 424E Trace inverters that are the export version (230V
> > 50Hz) and
> > was wondering if anyone on the list had ever taken one of these apart and
> > converted it to output 120v 60Hz? I know I can use them as is for
> lighting
> > and
> > stuff that has brushes but I would like to be able to use one or two for
> a
> > portable power project including charging an e-bike but also able to run
> > synchronous motors and computers without too much monkey motion. I
> > probably
> > should just sell them on E-bay and buy the correct one but figured I
> would
> > query
> > the list first. David Chapman.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> >
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20101101/b6b3dc93/attachment.html
> >l
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> >f
> > _______________________________________________
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Regards,
> *Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
> *www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
> EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
> *
> Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I or (813) 434 - 3884 (I think word phone
> numbers can be fun and good mnemonics aid memory.)
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
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> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
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>
>
>
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>



--
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I or (813) 434 - 3884 (I think word phone
numbers can be fun and good mnemonics aid memory.)
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| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

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Registered
Joined
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Discussion Starter #6
Wow, how small is the world indeed. I also went to Madeira Beach Junior High and
attended Northeast High where I wrestled and took industrial arts from a great
teacher named "Ernest Holcomb". I remember his name because I bought my first
car from him for $ 50 and an old skil saw. Wow, thanks for the blast from the
past. David Chapman.

PS, did you ever meet an educator named "Vance Lackore" now Dr. Lackore? DC.





________________________________
From: Dennis Miles <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 10:22:28 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone ever hacked a trace inverter?

Hi David,
Yes they influenced me to a career in electricity/electronics. We used
to put in the school brochure that Loving Science Fiction was an indication
of the ability to succeed in electronics.
You may need a transformer to drop the voltage to 120VAC For that AC
motor but the 50Hz only lowers the RPM by 16% and lessened Inductive
reactance results in somewhat increased motor current and increased IR drop
(Resistive heating)but not an excessive amount. In the saw motor.
I moved from Pennsylvania in 1959, went to Madeira middle school the we
moved to old NorthEast and in 62-63 I was at St.Pete High, and in 63-64 and
64-65 I attended Dixie M. Hollins , studying Electronics. Eventually my life
led me to P-Tec in Clearwater in 1981 and I taught Electronics,
Electromechanical for 18 years, retiring in 1998.
Regards,
Dennis Miles
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

David Chapman <[email protected]> wrote:

> Thanks for the "input" Dennis. I know I am probably over thinking this but
> I am
> building a fairly ambitious portable PV charger / power supply and want to
> "do
> it right" upfront rather than start out compromising too much. Hate to be
> 100
> miles from anywhere and find something I counted on would not work
> correctly or
> got damaged by wrong voltage. + my table saw and similar tools all like
> 120V.
> Dennis Berube suggested about the same thing.
>
>
> I envy you meeting Dr. Asimov. Never got to myself although he and a few
> others
> (Heinlein, Smith, Clark, Burroughs, Verne etc) greatly influenced my life.
> Kinda
> chagrined too as I was born in St. Pete and lived in Seminole until `74.
>
>
> I am kinda curious about what is inside one of these, I think I will open
> one up
> and see what makes it "tick". Xantrex does not offer schematics or even
> replacement parts and the warrantee is long over so no great loss. I was
> thinking of using two of these for my project so I should probably just
> target
> looking for a bigger more modern unit with better features anyway. They
> have
> come waaaaayyyy down in price since I acquired these. David Chapman.
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Dennis Miles <[email protected]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> Sent: Mon, November 1, 2010 9:15:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone ever hacked a trace inverter?
>
> Except for an old alarm clock with a synchronus motor in the clock,
> everything I owned worked "Fine' in northern Japan at 120 v. 50 Hz on my
> last visit.
> Regards,
> Dennis Miles. PS I Liked Dr.Asimov and I met him once at St.Petersburg
> University where I was a student in the 70's, He lived on St.Pete
> Beach...("I Robot") iasimovian..
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
>
> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 10:25 PM, David Chapman <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > I have a few TS 424E Trace inverters that are the export version (230V
> > 50Hz) and
> > was wondering if anyone on the list had ever taken one of these apart and
> > converted it to output 120v 60Hz? I know I can use them as is for
> lighting
> > and
> > stuff that has brushes but I would like to be able to use one or two for
> a
> > portable power project including charging an e-bike but also able to run
> > synchronous motors and computers without too much monkey motion. I
> > probably
> > should just sell them on E-bay and buy the correct one but figured I
> would
> > query
> > the list first. David Chapman.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> >
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20101101/b6b3dc93/attachment.html
>l
> >l
> > -------------- next part --------------
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>e
> >e
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>f
> >f
> > _______________________________________________
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Regards,
> *Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
> *www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
> EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
> *
> Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I or (813) 434 - 3884 (I think word phone
> numbers can be fun and good mnemonics aid memory.)
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
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>l
>
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>
>
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> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I or (813) 434 - 3884 (I think word phone
numbers can be fun and good mnemonics aid memory.)
-------------- next part --------------
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Discussion Starter #7
David Chapman wrote:
> I know I am probably over thinking this but I am building a fairly
> ambitious portable PV charger / power supply and want to "do it
> right" upfront rather than start out compromising too much. Hate to
> be 100 miles from anywhere and find something I counted on would not
> work correctly or got damaged by wrong voltage...

My suggestion for a "bulletproof" first inverter project would be to
start with a CVT (Constant Voltage Transformer) with the desired output
voltage, frequency, and of the necessary watts/VA capacity. The output
of a CVT is voltage regulated, current limited, and has a good waveform.
If it's a "harmonically neutralized" CVT, the output is an excellent
sinewave, no matter *what* the input waveform is.

Now, rewind the primary. Cut off the original primary, counting the
turns so you can figure out how many turns per volt it needs. CVTs have
their primary separated from the rest of the windings, all by itself, so
this is easier. You usually don't have to take the core apart.

If this is to be a 12v inverter, and the original primary was for 120v,
then you'll need about 1/10th the turns of 10 times heavier wire. It's
hard to wind a single wire this thick; so use copper foil. Measure the
width available for the winding, and figure out how many layers you need
to get the desired total cross sectional area of copper.

Solder a heavy wire lead to one end of the stack of copper tapes. It
should stick out at a right angle. Wind your new primary, by "threading"
the stack of copper tape through the core. Start with a sheet of "fish
paper" (insulating sheet) around the core, then your copper. As you
wind, the fish paper will insulate the turns of copper from each other.

When it's fully wound, tape it with glass tape so it won't go "boing"
and unwind. Solder another wire lead to the end of the stack of copper
tapes.

Make a full-bridge converter using 4 MOSFETs (or 4 groups of parallelled
MOSFETs). They need to be chosen for *extremely* low on-resistance. A
120v 10a output will require 12v at 100 amps input! If you want to keep
your MOSFET losses below 5%, that's a 2.5% voltage drop per MOSFET (in a
full bridge, the current always flow through two in series). 2.5% of 12v
is 0.3v, so your MOSFETs need an on-resistance of R = 0.3v / 100a =
0.003 ohms! That ain't easy.

Don't expect a TO-220 package to work. The chip inside may be 0.003
ohms, but the leads on it aren't, and they can't carry 100a. You
typically need many MOSFETs in parallel to get the on-resistance *and*
the current carrying capacity of the leads good enough.

Use any of the dozens of dedicated PWM chips for driving a full-bridge.
You'll need a strong gate driver, due to the large capacitance of so
many large MOSFETs.

Built with reasonable care, such an inverter is just about
indestructible. You can run it no-load, or with a shorted load, or a
load with any power factor.

> I am kinda curious about what is inside one of these, I think I will
> open one up and see what makes it "tick". Xantrex does not offer
> schematics or even replacement parts and the warrantee is long over
> so no great loss. I was thinking of using two of these for my project
> so I should probably just target looking for a bigger more modern
> unit with better features anyway. They have come waaaaayyyy down in
> price since I acquired these. David Chapman.

The old heavy Trace inverters have a big 60hz transformer, and dozens of
MOSFETs in a push-pull circuit on the primary side. It's much harder to
wind a center-tapped high current primary, but it cuts the number of
MOSFETs in half. They used generic PWM chips; no micro in the power
section (but later models had micros for bells and whistles). The output
waveform is a "modified square wave" which really means a square wave
with some dead time.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Registered
Joined
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Discussion Starter #8
Lee as usual your "tack" on this idea is fascinating and very pragmatic. And
very appreciated. I will definitely give this some thought. And thank you for
your input on the older Trace units. They might be old but just like that motor
generator discussion we had years ago still viable and might even have
advantages. I will try and remember to take photos of this project as it
progresses and post to a blog that I am learning to use. Regards, David Chapman.





________________________________
From: Lee Hart <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 6:04:41 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone ever hacked a trace inverter?

David Chapman wrote:
> I know I am probably over thinking this but I am building a fairly
> ambitious portable PV charger / power supply and want to "do it
> right" upfront rather than start out compromising too much. Hate to
> be 100 miles from anywhere and find something I counted on would not
> work correctly or got damaged by wrong voltage...

My suggestion for a "bulletproof" first inverter project would be to
start with a CVT (Constant Voltage Transformer) with the desired output
voltage, frequency, and of the necessary watts/VA capacity. The output
of a CVT is voltage regulated, current limited, and has a good waveform.
If it's a "harmonically neutralized" CVT, the output is an excellent
sinewave, no matter *what* the input waveform is.

Now, rewind the primary. Cut off the original primary, counting the
turns so you can figure out how many turns per volt it needs. CVTs have
their primary separated from the rest of the windings, all by itself, so
this is easier. You usually don't have to take the core apart.

If this is to be a 12v inverter, and the original primary was for 120v,
then you'll need about 1/10th the turns of 10 times heavier wire. It's
hard to wind a single wire this thick; so use copper foil. Measure the
width available for the winding, and figure out how many layers you need
to get the desired total cross sectional area of copper.

Solder a heavy wire lead to one end of the stack of copper tapes. It
should stick out at a right angle. Wind your new primary, by "threading"
the stack of copper tape through the core. Start with a sheet of "fish
paper" (insulating sheet) around the core, then your copper. As you
wind, the fish paper will insulate the turns of copper from each other.

When it's fully wound, tape it with glass tape so it won't go "boing"
and unwind. Solder another wire lead to the end of the stack of copper
tapes.

Make a full-bridge converter using 4 MOSFETs (or 4 groups of parallelled
MOSFETs). They need to be chosen for *extremely* low on-resistance. A
120v 10a output will require 12v at 100 amps input! If you want to keep
your MOSFET losses below 5%, that's a 2.5% voltage drop per MOSFET (in a
full bridge, the current always flow through two in series). 2.5% of 12v
is 0.3v, so your MOSFETs need an on-resistance of R = 0.3v / 100a =
0.003 ohms! That ain't easy.

Don't expect a TO-220 package to work. The chip inside may be 0.003
ohms, but the leads on it aren't, and they can't carry 100a. You
typically need many MOSFETs in parallel to get the on-resistance *and*
the current carrying capacity of the leads good enough.

Use any of the dozens of dedicated PWM chips for driving a full-bridge.
You'll need a strong gate driver, due to the large capacitance of so
many large MOSFETs.

Built with reasonable care, such an inverter is just about
indestructible. You can run it no-load, or with a shorted load, or a
load with any power factor.

> I am kinda curious about what is inside one of these, I think I will
> open one up and see what makes it "tick". Xantrex does not offer
> schematics or even replacement parts and the warrantee is long over
> so no great loss. I was thinking of using two of these for my project
> so I should probably just target looking for a bigger more modern
> unit with better features anyway. They have come waaaaayyyy down in
> price since I acquired these. David Chapman.

The old heavy Trace inverters have a big 60hz transformer, and dozens of
MOSFETs in a push-pull circuit on the primary side. It's much harder to
wind a center-tapped high current primary, but it cuts the number of
MOSFETs in half. They used generic PWM chips; no micro in the power
section (but later models had micros for bells and whistles). The output
waveform is a "modified square wave" which really means a square wave
with some dead time.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev




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