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[EVDL] Batteries, which one would you choose? Drag Racing!!!

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E
Hey all,

I am working with a battery supplier and it turns out to be:

http://www.fullriver.com/

If you were looking for a AGM to use for drag racing, which one would you
choose?

http://www.fullriver.com/products/hclist.asp

Comments?

Casey

http://www.dssev.ca
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Hey Casey,

I sell Full River Cells but they then to be a bit heavy. Drag racing cars
need to keep the cars light and lead acid isn't the preferred way to go.

Might want to look into the Higher C Rating that some LiFePo4 cells offer.
This will benefit you a great deal.


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
VP www.ECEDRA.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS





-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Casey Mynott
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 7:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] Batteries, which one would you choose? Drag Racing!!!


Hey all,

I am working with a battery supplier and it turns out to be:

http://www.fullriver.com/

If you were looking for a AGM to use for drag racing, which one would you
choose?

http://www.fullriver.com/products/hclist.asp

Comments?

Casey

http://www.dssev.ca
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-one-would-you-choose-Drag-Racing-tp3077512p3077512.html
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Nabble.com.

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In a message dated 12/7/2010 5:48:59 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
> Subj: [EVDL] Batteries, which one would you choose? Drag Racing!!!
> Date:12/7/2010 5:48:59 PM US Mountain Standard Time
> From:[email protected]
> Reply-to:[email protected]
> To:[email protected]
> Received from Internet:
>

Hi Casey,

I have used Hawker batteries for over 20 years of EV Drag racing.(4000+ 1/4
mile passes) At least 3000 on Hawkers. I perfer the 16AH Genis.

Dennis Berube

>
>
>
> Hey all,
>
> I am working with a battery supplier and it turns out to be:
>
> http://www.fullriver.com/
>
> If you were looking for a AGM to use for drag racing, which one would you
> choose?
>
> http://www.fullriver.com/products/hclist.asp
>
> Comments?
>
> Casey
>
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Hey guys,

Thanks for the replies! Since we may have full river as a sponsor product I
am trying to find a battery that they can provide that will meet our
requirements. I have been recommended by the engineer at full river that we
should be using this battery:

http://www.fullriver.com/products/admin/upfile/HC65ST.pdf

It should provide what we need in terms of all out racing amps in regards to
the balance with weight. What do you think? Would you go with this one? ;)

Casey
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That looks good. You may also want to look at two strings of the HC30 in
parallel; two HC30 in parallel weigh the same as a HC65 but are rated for
slightly more HCA (1270 vs 1200) and significantly more PHCA (1900 vs 1500).
I expect that drag racing currents should be lower than PHCA, but possibly
higher than HCA.

On the other hand, Full River may prefer to give you one string of HC65
instead of twice as many HC30, and the performance difference isn't that
big.

In any case, you'll have to be careful of your Zilla settings to avoid
blowing up batteries; read through White Zombie's page to see some of the
AGMs they've blown up in the past.

-Morgan LaMoore

Casey Mynott <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> Hey guys,
>
> Thanks for the replies! Since we may have full river as a sponsor product I
> am trying to find a battery that they can provide that will meet our
> requirements. I have been recommended by the engineer at full river that we
> should be using this battery:
>
> http://www.fullriver.com/products/admin/upfile/HC65ST.pdf
>
> It should provide what we need in terms of all out racing amps in regards
> to
> the balance with weight. What do you think? Would you go with this one? ;)
>
> Casey
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Batteries-which-one-would-you-choose-Drag-Racing-tp3077512p3079605.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
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Hey Morgan,

Thanks for the reply. Hmmmmmm......I am thinking that the HC30 might be the
better way to go. I am going to contact the supplier and see what we can do!
I will report back soon! ;)

Casey


Morgan LaMoore wrote:
>
> That looks good. You may also want to look at two strings of the HC30 in
> parallel; two HC30 in parallel weigh the same as a HC65 but are rated for
> slightly more HCA (1270 vs 1200) and significantly more PHCA (1900 vs
> 1500).
> I expect that drag racing currents should be lower than PHCA, but possibly
> higher than HCA.
>
> On the other hand, Full River may prefer to give you one string of HC65
> instead of twice as many HC30, and the performance difference isn't that
> big.
>
> In any case, you'll have to be careful of your Zilla settings to avoid
> blowing up batteries; read through White Zombie's page to see some of the
> AGMs they've blown up in the past.
>
> -Morgan LaMoore
>
> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 10:59 PM, Casey Mynott <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hey guys,
>>
>> Thanks for the replies! Since we may have full river as a sponsor product
>> I
>> am trying to find a battery that they can provide that will meet our
>> requirements. I have been recommended by the engineer at full river that
>> we
>> should be using this battery:
>>
>> http://www.fullriver.com/products/admin/upfile/HC65ST.pdf
>>
>> It should provide what we need in terms of all out racing amps in regards
>> to
>> the balance with weight. What do you think? Would you go with this one?
>> ;)
>>
>> Casey
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Batteries-which-one-would-you-choose-Drag-Racing-tp3077512p3079605.html
>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
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>>
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If you go that route, three of the HC18 weigh 6-7 pounds less and have about
the same current capabilities:

(HC65 x1, HC30 x2, HC18 x3)
(46.19 lbs, 46.74 lbs, 39.69 lbs)
(1200 HCA, 1270 HCA, 1320 HCA)
(1500 PHCA, 1900 PHCA, 1875 PHCA)

-Morgan LaMoore

Casey Mynott <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> Hey Morgan,
>
> Thanks for the reply. Hmmmmmm......I am thinking that the HC30 might be the
> better way to go. I am going to contact the supplier and see what we can
> do!
> I will report back soon! ;)
>
> Casey
>
>
> Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> >
> > That looks good. You may also want to look at two strings of the HC30 in
> > parallel; two HC30 in parallel weigh the same as a HC65 but are rated for
> > slightly more HCA (1270 vs 1200) and significantly more PHCA (1900 vs
> > 1500).
> > I expect that drag racing currents should be lower than PHCA, but
> possibly
> > higher than HCA.
> >
> > On the other hand, Full River may prefer to give you one string of HC65
> > instead of twice as many HC30, and the performance difference isn't that
> > big.
> >
> > In any case, you'll have to be careful of your Zilla settings to avoid
> > blowing up batteries; read through White Zombie's page to see some of the
> > AGMs they've blown up in the past.
> >
> > -Morgan LaMoore
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 10:59 PM, Casey Mynott <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Hey guys,
> >>
> >> Thanks for the replies! Since we may have full river as a sponsor
> product
> >> I
> >> am trying to find a battery that they can provide that will meet our
> >> requirements. I have been recommended by the engineer at full river that
> >> we
> >> should be using this battery:
> >>
> >> http://www.fullriver.com/products/admin/upfile/HC65ST.pdf
> >>
> >> It should provide what we need in terms of all out racing amps in
> regards
> >> to
> >> the balance with weight. What do you think? Would you go with this one?
> >> ;)
> >>
> >> Casey
> >> --
> >> View this message in context:
> >>
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Batteries-which-one-would-you-choose-Drag-Racing-tp3077512p3079605.html
> >> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> >> Nabble.com.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
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> >>
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Hey Morgan,

Okay, I think I am getting this now. If I can get them, the HC18 looks like
the way to go in regards to the weight and amp output. We are running 240
volts so the motor will see no less than 170 volts under hard acceleration.

(HC65 x1, HC30 x2, HC18 x3)
(46.19 lbs, 46.74 lbs, 39.69 lbs)
(1200 HCA, 1270 HCA, 1320 HCA)
(1500 PHCA, 1900 PHCA, 1875 PHCA)
(65 amp hr, 60 amp hr, 54 amp hr)

Oh, and I found this on the full river site. It has a ton of info about the
batteries with a cross reference guide to other battery manufactures:

http://www.fullriver.com/products/admin/upfile/HCseriesbrochures.pdf

Thanks for all the info and comments. This is totally helping with the
learning process. ;)

Casey


Morgan LaMoore wrote:
>
> If you go that route, three of the HC18 weigh 6-7 pounds less and have
> about
> the same current capabilities:
>
> (HC65 x1, HC30 x2, HC18 x3)
> (46.19 lbs, 46.74 lbs, 39.69 lbs)
> (1200 HCA, 1270 HCA, 1320 HCA)
> (1500 PHCA, 1900 PHCA, 1875 PHCA)
>
> -Morgan LaMoore
>
> On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 1:14 PM, Casey Mynott <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hey Morgan,
>>
>> Thanks for the reply. Hmmmmmm......I am thinking that the HC30 might be
>> the
>> better way to go. I am going to contact the supplier and see what we can
>> do!
>> I will report back soon! ;)
>>
>> Casey
>>
>>
>>
Morgan LaMoore wrote:
>> >
>> > That looks good. You may also want to look at two strings of the HC30
>> in
>> > parallel; two HC30 in parallel weigh the same as a HC65 but are rated
>> for
>> > slightly more HCA (1270 vs 1200) and significantly more PHCA (1900 vs
>> > 1500).
>> > I expect that drag racing currents should be lower than PHCA, but
>> possibly
>> > higher than HCA.
>> >
>> > On the other hand, Full River may prefer to give you one string of HC65
>> > instead of twice as many HC30, and the performance difference isn't
>> that
>> > big.
>> >
>> > In any case, you'll have to be careful of your Zilla settings to avoid
>> > blowing up batteries; read through White Zombie's page to see some of
>> the
>> > AGMs they've blown up in the past.
>> >
>> > -Morgan LaMoore
>> >
>> > On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 10:59 PM, Casey Mynott <[email protected]>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Hey guys,
>> >>
>> >> Thanks for the replies! Since we may have full river as a sponsor
>> product
>> >> I
>> >> am trying to find a battery that they can provide that will meet our
>> >> requirements. I have been recommended by the engineer at full river
>> that
>> >> we
>> >> should be using this battery:
>> >>
>> >> http://www.fullriver.com/products/admin/upfile/HC65ST.pdf
>> >>
>> >> It should provide what we need in terms of all out racing amps in
>> regards
>> >> to
>> >> the balance with weight. What do you think? Would you go with this
>> one?
>> >> ;)
>> >>
>> >> Casey
>> >> --
>> >> View this message in context:
>> >>
>> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Batteries-which-one-would-you-choose-Drag-Racing-tp3077512p3079605.html
>> >> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>> >> Nabble.com.
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
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Hey all,

It seems like the supplier most likely will the supplying the HC65. So:

HC65 x1
46.19 lbs
1200 HCA
1500 PHCA
65 amp hr

For the time being we will have these batteries sitting in the shop with
trickle chargers on them so they are tended to.

We are going to be running 20 of these in series for a pack voltage of 240
volts. For the purpose, should we be looking at a bms of some type? From
what I have read it seems that we would like to control how much each
battery is discharged and when charging ensuring that each battery is
charged to the same voltage and not allowed to overcharge. AGM's should be
taken care in this respect.

Controlling under discharge seems to be an expensive issue to address.
Controlling while charging seems a bit more doable with the budget we have.

Most likely we will be using a manzanito mico type charger.

So, any comments on the charging / bms side of these full river AGM's?

Thanks!

Casey


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On 14 Dec 2010 at 21:34, Casey Mynott wrote:

> For the time being we will have these batteries sitting in the shop with
> trickle chargers on them so they are tended to.

If they're AGMs, I recommend NOT doing this. AGMs and most gels hold their
charge very well when stored clean, dry, and cool.

Trickle charging is always a bad idea, regardless of the battery. Float
charging is better, but still unnecessary. Even that will overcharge your
batteries and shorten their lives. When you receive them, give them a full
charge, and then store them in a cool, dry place.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Charge them back up at least every 3 months or so,
that is what the battery warehouses are doing...


Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

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Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 11:44 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Batteries, which one would you choose? Drag
Racing!!!

On 14 Dec 2010 at 21:34, Casey Mynott wrote:

> For the time being we will have these batteries sitting in the shop
> with trickle chargers on them so they are tended to.

If they're AGMs, I recommend NOT doing this. AGMs and most gels hold
their charge very well when stored clean, dry, and cool.

Trickle charging is always a bad idea, regardless of the battery. Float
charging is better, but still unnecessary. Even that will overcharge
your batteries and shorten their lives. When you receive them, give
them a full charge, and then store them in a cool, dry place.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Hey guys,

All charged up and sitting in a nice, cool, dry location! Thanks. As for the
BMS, should I be concerned about one? I see that Lee Hart, Cor van de Water
and others have contributed to this topic in some detail. Comments? ;)

Casey
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Hello Casey,

Since 1976, I have balance batteries by charging each cell or battery
separately using a 2, 6, and 12 volt chargers. My first battery pack had
links between each cell, so I could charge that cell separately to match the
highest charge cell in the pack.

At that time, I had a charger that I got from a military savage yard that
can charge 18 cells separately which had 19 leads coming out of it. These
where not common together in the charger, there were 18 separate circuits
which was normally for charging MiCad batteries.

The problem with 6,8 and 12 volt batteries, is that you can charge the
battery to the same voltage as the other batteries, but the cells voltages
may not be the same as the others.

Today the method I use, is to charge the pack with the main charger, then
charge each battery separately to match the highest battery voltage. For
normal driving, I do this about every three months after I water and initial
charge the battery with the main charger and charge them separately which in
many cases may take 1 to 5 minutes of charging each battery.

Sometimes it only took less than 15 minutes to charge 30 batteries using
this method.

The charger I am using to balance the battery, is a Schumacher WM-10000A
Smart charger for 6 and 12 volt Standard, Deep Cycle, AGM, and Gel batteries
at 40, 15, or 2 amps. Displays the voltage and State of Charge.

I am also using a Schumacher WM-6000A Smart charger for only 12 volts for
any of these type of batteries at 30, 10, or 2 volts. You can get this
charger from Wal-Mart for about $40.00.

I have this WM-6000A charger on board that comes on when I plug in the main
A/C plug. It either charges the accessory deep cycle battery or goes into a
maintain charge. This battery has now been running for 9 years, 8 months,
10 days and 45 minutes.

I got the WM-6000A charger from Wal-Mart for $40.00 back in 2000.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Casey Mynott" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Batteries, which one would you choose? Drag Racing!!!


Hey guys,

All charged up and sitting in a nice, cool, dry location! Thanks. As for the
BMS, should I be concerned about one? I see that Lee Hart, Cor van de Water
and others have contributed to this topic in some detail. Comments? ;)

Casey


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Roland Wiench wrote:

> maintain charge. This battery has now been running for 9 years, 8 months,
> 10 days and 45 minutes.

I have previously gotten the impression that Roland is not very
humorous guy. Impression revised. Bravo, Roland!

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 94 days 15 hours 09 minutes

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>> It depends on what you want. If you're going racing, the batteries
>> are free, and you don't care how long they last, then a BMS is an
>> unnecessary expense.

Steven Ciciora wrote:
> For "racing" this is bad advice.

You left off my next sentence, Steven. It was "You can manage them
yourself with a meter and 12v battery charger."

If you're going racing, you don't drive that EV very much. You want it
as light as possible. Putting a BMS in it just adds weight. You're
better off managing the batteries yourself, so you know what's going on
and can stay right on top of it. You're going to individually charge or
replace any that look weak *before* you hit the track.

Ask John Wayland, Dennis Berube, Bill Dube', Roderick Wilde, etc. what
kind of BMS they used in their racing EVs with lead-acid packs.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Hey Guys,

This is great conversation for a guy learning the ropes! Working with high
school students involves building KISS (keep in simple stupid) into the
design of the vehicle.

So, a string of 20 AGM's, there should be no need for a BMS if the traction
pack has been manually balanced before race day?

How about charging at the races? Just pump the juice in and don't worry
about balancing? I am concerned about the battery life because of the nature
of the project and sponsorship. We are going to be pushing the batteries
hard but want to ensure that we did everything we could in regards to care
and maintenance.

Thanks again for all your experience and info!

Casey




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Casey,
I'm surprised at you, We never use the word "STUPID" in my classroom or
school!
It is one of the "Politically Incorrect Words and an easy one to avoid.

The Modern (Since the 1970's ) words for K I S S - Engineering is
"KEEP IT SIMPLE STUDENTS !" in the school setting
and "...SMARTEE !" in the R. & D. Lab.

Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
It ended because they started using their Brains !
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Casey Mynott <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> Hey Guys,
>
> This is great conversation for a guy learning the ropes! Working with high
> school students involves building KISS (keep in simple stupid) into the
> design of the vehicle.
>
> So, a string of 20 AGM's, there should be no need for a BMS if the traction
> pack has been manually balanced before race day?
>
> How about charging at the races? Just pump the juice in and don't worry
> about balancing? I am concerned about the battery life because of the
> nature
> of the project and sponsorship. We are going to be pushing the batteries
> hard but want to ensure that we did everything we could in regards to care
> and maintenance.
>
> Thanks again for all your experience and info!
>
> Casey
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Batteries-which-one-would-you-choose-Drag-Racing-tp3077512p3091492.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> The Modern (Since the 1970's ) words for K I S S - Engineering is
> "KEEP IT SIMPLE STUDENTS !" in the school setting
> and "...SMARTEE !" in the R. & D. Lab.
>
> Regards,
> *Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
> *www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
> EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter

LOL, this is a bit complicated and does not seem to pass the KISS test to me :)
damon
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Damon, I know it seems humorous but using the word "stupid" on a student,
especially in the "Special Education" classes I am certified to teach as
well as the High School and Adult Vocational classes I taught for 20+ years
will cost the teacher a lot of student respect, and might affect the
student's "Self-Esteem" which reduces the ability for them to co-operate in
classes and out!

Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles*
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

damon henry <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> >
> > The Modern (Since the 1970's ) words for K I S S - Engineering is
> > "KEEP IT SIMPLE STUDENTS !" in the school setting
> > and "...SMARTEE !" in the R. & D. Lab.
> >
> > Regards,
> > *Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
> > *www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
> > EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
>
> LOL, this is a bit complicated and does not seem to pass the KISS test to
> me :)
> damon
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--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
It ended because they started using their Brains !
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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I can certainly see your point and how this would be taboo to anyone in your field of work. I personally have 4 kids, 3 of whom are very high academic achievers, while my youngest who is now 12 is already one grade behind and still barely keeping up. Her and I spend lots of time on homework together and I would hate for anyone to use the word stupid when dealing with her.
Still for a list like this which is predominantly frequented by engineers and geeks KISS is still "Keep it Simple Stupid", and the irony of having to remember to use the correct version in the correct situation just made me laugh :)
damon

> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 16:29:24 -0500
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Batteries, which one would you choose? Drag Racing!!!
>
> Damon, I know it seems humorous but using the word "stupid" on a student,
> especially in the "Special Education" classes I am certified to teach as
> well as the High School and Adult Vocational classes I taught for 20+ years
> will cost the teacher a lot of student respect, and might affect the
> student's "Self-Esteem" which reduces the ability for them to co-operate in
> classes and out!
>
> Regards,
> *Dennis Lee Miles*


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