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Discussion Starter #1
Does the PTC heater core with mounting frame that Canadian EV sells
come in more than one voltage?

Trying to get mine working, and I've wired it using every other
contact (B+ in the middle, B- on the outer two) for my 212V system
voltage. The unit gets hot, but doesn't seem to produce significant
heat when it is in the airflow. EVision says it is drawing slightly
more than an amp...seems low (200-250watts?)

CANEV's website mentions three voltages: "36-108 V, 120-168V, 208-280V
1500W" but it doesn't say if those are different elements, or just
different ways of wiring the elements.

Anyone have experience with these?

--
Mark Farver
REVOLT Custom Electric Vehicles
Austin, TX
Parts store now open: http://www.revoltevc.com/

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Discussion Starter #2
Bob Bath <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm drawing 144V x 38A at full blast of air with the middle unit you indi=
cate, so pretty close to 5kW of power. I'd go back through the manufactu=
rer (I know it's a Sunday and you probably want a faster answer), but I sus=
pect you still have it wired wrong, or that you have the wrong element. =
The only other issue is that you don't have enough airflow, and it's thrott=
ling back based on temp, and I don't think that's the case.peace,

Thanks.

I disassembled the framework that it was mounted in, and sure enough
it says 220V on the side. So I think that means I have to wire every
element to 220V, instead of wiring pairs of elements in series.

Mark

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Discussion Starter #3
The heaters at canadian EV are the same ones sold at ev source. Take a
look at the installation diagram pdf on this page. It shows how to
wire it up.

http://evsource.com/tls_heaters.php








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Discussion Starter #4
From: Kyle Dansie <[email protected]>
> The heaters at Canadian EV are the same ones sold at EV source.
> Take a look at the installation diagram pdf on this page.
> It shows how to wire it up.
> http://evsource.com/tls_heaters.php

This is an extremely basic diagram; too basic for my taste.

It shows an SW-200 250amp contactor to switch a heater that draws 20 amps at most. That is a vast overkill. The more usual choice is a Tyco / Potter & Brumfield PRD11DH0-12 (or equivalent). This relay has a 12vdc coil, and two 20amp 125vdc contacts with magnetic blowouts.

The heater connection it shows is for a 120vdc nominal (96-156vdc) pack. It has the four heater elements all in series. Above this, the four heating elements should be wired as two series pairs in parallel (positive to the center terminal, negative to both outer terminals, no connection to the 2nd and 4th terminals).

The contactor's contacts need a "snubber" across them. This is typically a series resistor (5-50 ohms) and a capacitor (0.1-1uF). It dramatically reduces contact arcing, and extends life.

They show only a single contact in series with the heater. This isn't safe; contacts typically fail *shorted* which causes a runaway heater! You need a second overtemperature cutout switch or fuse.

These heaters require airflow for proper operation. Thus, you need an interlock to insure that the fan is running before enabling the heating element.

--
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it. -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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Discussion Starter #5
Might also use two of these SPST 200VDC/40A ssr's with a PID controller to
control temperature to a setpoint:
http://www.futurlec.com/Relays/SSRDC200V40A.shtml

Still of course need fuses, and wiring through the blower switch so the
heater only operates with the blower on.
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Discussion Starter #6
"This is suspicious. The picture says 100vdc, while the description says
200vdc. The description also says "triac output" which is *AC only*. "

This is just the description given by the retailer. If you scroll down to
the data sheet, under "Description" it states these are for DC loads, and
gives more detail under the "Output" section for the different models. The
outputs are MOSFETS, so should have very low leakage current. I have two of
the HFS33 D-200D40M-L(555) relays, and they are marked 40A 200VDC on the
load (where the picture in the link says 100VDC).
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Discussion Starter #7
There is also a "CE" mark just below "SOLID STATE RELAY" on the two relays I
have. Not sure it really means much though.
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Discussion Starter #8
> "This is suspicious. The picture says 100vdc, while the description says
> 200vdc. The description also says "triac output" which is *AC only*."

tomw wrote:
> This is just the description given by the retailer. If you scroll down to
> the data sheet, under "Description" it states these are for DC loads, and
> gives more detail under the "Output" section for the different models. The
> outputs are MOSFETS, so should have very low leakage current. I have two of
> the HFS33 D-200D40M-L(555) relays, and they are marked 40A 200VDC on the
> load (where the picture in the link says 100VDC).

Trust, but test. If I'm going to use a part in a safety critical
application, I want to *know* it works.

For example, I bought a couple DC solid state relays from www.mpja.com.
They are labelled "Gold Control Tech SPD4040D DC SSR" and rated 3-32vdc
in, 12-480vdc 40a out. It has a prominent CE mark, but there's nearly
invisible print that says "with testing it's elibible".

I tested them. The performance is awful. At 480vdc, off-state leakage
current was over 1ma. At 40amps, the on-state voltage drop was over 3
volts. It got so hot (even on a large heatsink) that one failed. So I
dug it open.

The output device was actually an IGBT. The PC board is extremely crude.
They tried to carry 40a on 1/8" wide PC traces; that didn't work, so
they added a piece of bare #18 wire on top of the trace. These devices
are junk.

Before you use your relays, buy a second one and test it. Then cut it
open and see what's inside. That's the only way to know what you're getting.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Discussion Starter #9
"For example, I bought a couple DC solid state relays from www.mpja.com.
They are labelled "Gold Control Tech SPD4040D DC SSR" and rated 3-32vdc
in, 12-480vdc 40a out..."

Thanks for that info!

I may then go the extra cost and use two of these, one in each lead from the
pack after the fuses:
http://www.omron.com/ecb/products/dry/3/g9eb-1.html.

Pricey, but should be safe. I have a bit higher current, 27A max, but half
the rated voltage. They are small enough to fit in the space where I now
have a 125VDC/20A P&B relay which is arcing, and underrated for the current.
It would be nice to use the ssrs with a PID to automatically cycle the
heaters on off and control to a set point temperature. If I do, I'll mount
them downstream of the above relays, and use a separate switch for power to
the PID. Could also use one switch and a delay to the PID, but not sure how
I would implement that.
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Discussion Starter #10
For that kind of money I'd use one of the small Kilovac contactors
(LEV200A4NAA) like the ones EV Source sells for $90. Rated up to 320VDC
and 500A. Read the spec sheet carefully, as they're really only good for
~200A at 270V with reasonable life. I'm using them to switch a pair of
120VAC ceramic heater elements in a 150V pickup. Instant TOASTY!

No inductive kickback (no diodes needed across the coil terminals). Wires
up just like a relay. They do depend on the attached wiring as a heatsink,
but for a heater element it shouldn't be a problem. I can hear them click
from under the hood, but not when the vehicle is in motion.

-Adrian


Lee Hart wrote:

> On 10/19/2010 7:58 PM, tomw wrote:
>> "For example, I bought a couple DC solid state relays...
>
>> I may then go the extra cost and use two of these, one in each lead
>> from the
>> pack after the fuses:
>> http://www.omron.com/ecb/products/dry/3/g9eb-1.html.
>
> Omron is a good brand, so I would trust their specs as being more
> honest. But it is pricy!
>
>> I now have a 125VDC/20A P&B relay which is arcing, and underrated
>> for the current.
>
> Do you have a snubber across the contacts? Something like a 47 ohm 1
> watt resistor in series with a 0.22uF 600vdc capacitor? This
> considerably reduces arcing.

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Discussion Starter #11
Tom,

If your contactor is arcing then there is a good chance
that the circuit is creating a high voltage spike.
This will kill SSRs in short order, so please follow
Lee's advice for adding a snubber, then *measure* the
voltage peak with a memory scope to make sure it is
below rated voltage before even thinking about
swapping in the SSRs, or all you will do is blow
expensive silicon with the spikes...

Success,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of tomw
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 6:28 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Canadian EV heaters?


"For example, I bought a couple DC solid state relays from www.mpja.com.
They are labelled "Gold Control Tech SPD4040D DC SSR" and rated 3-32vdc
in, 12-480vdc 40a out..."

Thanks for that info!

I may then go the extra cost and use two of these, one in each lead from
the pack after the fuses:
http://www.omron.com/ecb/products/dry/3/g9eb-1.html.

Pricey, but should be safe. I have a bit higher current, 27A max, but
half the rated voltage. They are small enough to fit in the space where
I now have a 125VDC/20A P&B relay which is arcing, and underrated for
the current.
It would be nice to use the ssrs with a PID to automatically cycle the
heaters on off and control to a set point temperature. If I do, I'll
mount them downstream of the above relays, and use a separate switch for
power to the PID. Could also use one switch and a delay to the PID, but
not sure how I would implement that.
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Canadian-EV
-heaters-tp2999393p3003092.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

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Discussion Starter #12
"Do you have a snubber across the contacts?"
Yes. It is the P&B relay kit from kta-ev. I suppose I could use it as is
until the contacts wear, but I'm concerned the contacts may weld shut.
I'll take a look at those contactors to see if I have enough space for them
Adrian. Sounds like I have a setup similar to you - two 1500W heater cores
connected in parallel, mounted side by side in place of the old heater core.
They draw 3160W with the blower on high, and like you say, put out almost
instant heat!
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Discussion Starter #13
> From: Kyle Dansie <[email protected]>
> > The heaters at Canadian EV are the same ones sold at EV source.
> > Take a look at the installation diagram pdf on this page.
> > It shows how to wire it up.
> > http://evsource.com/tls_heaters.php
>
> This is an extremely basic diagram; too basic for my taste.
>

Yeah, you're right. This is something I've wanted to work on for awhile.
This might give the motivation to get it done!


>
> It shows an SW-200 250amp contactor to switch a heater that draws 20 amps
> at most. That is a vast overkill.


Yes, but better overkill than underkill. The SW-200 style contactors can be
purchased for less than $80. Probably don't need to worry about any snubber
components with that much overkill. By the way, I've just listed a few Tyco
EV100 contactors on EV Source for an intro price of $79.99:
http://www.evsource.com/tls_kilovac.php ... when the three are gone, the
price goes up quite a bit.


> The more usual choice is a Tyco / Potter & Brumfield PRD11DH0-12 (or
> equivalent). This relay has a 12vdc coil, and two 20amp 125vdc contacts with
> magnetic blowouts.
>

If you're running a 144V or 156V pack, you're pushing the ratings on this
part.


>
>
> They show only a single contact in series with the heater. This isn't safe;
> contacts typically fail *shorted* which causes a runaway heater! You need a
> second overtemperature cutout switch or fuse.
>
> These heaters require airflow for proper operation. Thus, you need an
> interlock to insure that the fan is running before enabling the heating
> element.
>

All very good points.

-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Professional grade electric vehicle parts and resources
E-mail: mailto:[email protected]
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