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Discussion Starter #1
I keep seeing " I want cheap this & that, I dont want to pay alot for anything for my EV"
well why dont you go out and buy a CNC ststem, plasma cutter, about 20K$ woth of hand tools, a 14x40 lathe, and start making your own, this way you wont have to pay for anything.
But asking a business to make or give you "CHEAP" THEY WILL LAUGH AT YOU.
then when some other cheap skate ask you to make some thing cheap for him, your gonna say "ARE YOU NUTS, YOU KNOW HOW MUCH ALL THIS CRAP COST ME TO RUN A BUSINESS" lolololol Wayne ev-blue.com
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Discussion Starter #4
some truth to that but also som bullshit
if that was the case it would be hard to explain the consumer computer
industry where you can have killer products dirt cheap

go back in time and ask someone to make you a quad core cpu with a
billion transistors at a few gigahertz for 250$ and they might laugh too

Dan




Ben wrote:
> Reminds me of that old saying..
>
> Good, Fast, Cheap: Pick any two (you can't have all three).
>
> On 10/25/07, wayne alexander <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I keep seeing " I want cheap this & that, I dont want to pay alot for anything for my EV"
>> well why dont you go out and buy a CNC ststem, plasma cutter, about 20K$ woth of hand tools, a 14x40 lathe, and start making your own, this way you wont have to pay for anything.
>> But asking a business to make or give you "CHEAP" THEY WILL LAUGH AT YOU.
>> then when some other cheap skate ask you to make some thing cheap for him, your gonna say "ARE YOU NUTS, YOU KNOW HOW MUCH ALL THIS CRAP COST ME TO RUN A BUSINESS" lolololol Wayne ev-blue.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>

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Discussion Starter #6
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cheap cheap cheap!!!!!!


> some truth to that but also som bullshit
> if that was the case it would be hard to explain the consumer computer
> industry where you can have killer products dirt cheap
>
> go back in time and ask someone to make you a quad core cpu with a
> billion transistors at a few gigahertz for 250$ and they might laugh too
>
> Dan
>

I agree. Anyone here ever heard of economy of scale? EV components have
never achieved "cheap" pricing because there's never been sufficient
competition in the industry to drive mass production (of 1,000,000 AC
controllers/year, for example). I hope to see the day when I can demand
cheap EV parts, maybe even from a scrapyard full of broken ones.

>
> Ben wrote:
>> Reminds me of that old saying..
>>
>> Good, Fast, Cheap: Pick any two (you can't have all three).
>>
>> On 10/25/07, wayne alexander <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I keep seeing " I want cheap this & that, I dont want to pay alot for
>>> anything for my EV"
>>> well why dont you go out and buy a CNC ststem, plasma cutter, about
>>> 20K$ woth of hand tools, a 14x40 lathe, and start making your own, this
>>> way you wont have to pay for anything.
>>> But asking a business to make or give you "CHEAP" THEY WILL LAUGH AT
>>> YOU.
>>> then when some other cheap skate ask you to make some thing cheap for
>>> him, your gonna say "ARE YOU NUTS, YOU KNOW HOW MUCH ALL THIS CRAP COST
>>> ME TO RUN A BUSINESS" lolololol Wayne ev-blue.com
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> For subscription options, see
>>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Discussion Starter #7
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cheap cheap cheap!!!!!!


> some truth to that but also som bullshit
> if that was the case it would be hard to explain the consumer computer
> industry where you can have killer products dirt cheap
>
> go back in time and ask someone to make you a quad core cpu with a
> billion transistors at a few gigahertz for 250$ and they might laugh too
>
> Dan
>
> VOLUME,VOLUME, VOLUME! If EV's were in EVERY home and Biz, like
> Micro-Sloth, you would have your cheep controllers you are always talking
> about! Or to put it in prespctive, IF it was an EV world and YOU for some
> Godforsaken reason, HAD to have a V-8? Go ahead, cast or fabricate a
> block, Forge a crankshast, or scrape together bits and pieces from some
> similar machinery. See how far several thou would go?No cheating; crate
> engines, do it yurself!

Henry Ford has the right idea in Hyland Park, MI in 1915; MASS
production AND paying his help living wages so they could actually BUY
Fords.Sorta helped kill the Trolley biz.

Cheeping out.

Bob
>
>
> Ben wrote:
>> Reminds me of that old saying..
>>
>> Good, Fast, Cheap: Pick any two (you can't have all three).
>>
>> On 10/25/07, wayne alexander <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I keep seeing " I want cheap this & that, I dont want to pay alot for
>>> anything for my EV"
>>> well why dont you go out and buy a CNC ststem, plasma cutter, about
>>> 20K$ woth of hand tools, a 14x40 lathe, and start making your own, this
>>> way you wont have to pay for anything.
>>> But asking a business to make or give you "CHEAP" THEY WILL LAUGH AT
>>> YOU.
>>> then when some other cheap skate ask you to make some thing cheap for
>>> him, your gonna say "ARE YOU NUTS, YOU KNOW HOW MUCH ALL THIS CRAP COST
>>> ME TO RUN A BUSINESS" lolololol Wayne ev-blue.com
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> For subscription options, see
>>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
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>
>
> --
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.28/1023 - Release Date:
> 9/22/2007 1:27 PM
>
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Discussion Starter #8
The economics of high density microelectronics does not apply to power
circuitry. The cost of the electronics is related to the power
consumption, so the price of microprocessors is essentially the ratio of
power density to clock speed. Not component density, power density.
Gains in density reduce the power consumption and thus the cost.
["Computing in a Parallel Universe", Brian Hayes, American Scientist
Nov-Dec 2007] speaks to this issue.

In the case of power circuits, we are asking for increased power, so we
get proportionally increased cost.

- kent

On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:25:31 +0200, "Dan Frederiksen"
<[email protected]> said:
> some truth to that but also som bullshit
> if that was the case it would be hard to explain the consumer computer
> industry where you can have killer products dirt cheap
>
> go back in time and ask someone to make you a quad core cpu with a
> billion transistors at a few gigahertz for 250$ and they might laugh too
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
> Ben wrote:
> > Reminds me of that old saying..
> >
> > Good, Fast, Cheap: Pick any two (you can't have all three).
> >
> > On 10/25/07, wayne alexander <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> I keep seeing " I want cheap this & that, I dont want to pay alot for anything for my EV"
> >> well why dont you go out and buy a CNC ststem, plasma cutter, about 20K$ woth of hand tools, a 14x40 lathe, and start making your own, this way you wont have to pay for anything.
> >> But asking a business to make or give you "CHEAP" THEY WILL LAUGH AT YOU.
> >> then when some other cheap skate ask you to make some thing cheap for him, your gonna say "ARE YOU NUTS, YOU KNOW HOW MUCH ALL THIS CRAP COST ME TO RUN A BUSINESS" lolololol Wayne ev-blue.com
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> For subscription options, see
> >> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Discussion Starter #9
You seem to be arguing that if we could get economy of scale going for
us, AC motors and controllers would be cheap. You use the semiconductor
industry to try to prove your point, but they have had economy of scale
on their side for decades, and their progress is technology limited, not
scale limited.

The technology for AC controllers and motors is not technology limited,
nor is it scale limited either. Several companies make AC induction
motors and controllers in the sizes required for EV use, and they make
lots of them for industrial machines. THEY ARE NOT CHEAP. In fact,
Otmar's controllers and Advanced DC motors are significantly less
expensive.

Batteries are the limiting factor right now. They are technology AND
scale limited. Even with A123Systems batteries you would need more than
10000 of them (a lot more!) to go 300 miles in a 250wh/m vehicle. The
Tesla had to use older technology batteries so they could get around the
scale issues, but they have more limited discharge/recharge, can explode
easily, and aren't that cheap anyways.

And how can you say that a quad-core with billions of transistors is
cheap? Last I checked, the materials going into a processor cost a few
pennies! $250 for a processor is outrageous!

Brian



some truth to that but also som bullshit if that was the case it would
be hard to explain the consumer computer industry where you can have
killer products dirt cheap

go back in time and ask someone to make you a quad core cpu with a
billion transistors at a few gigahertz for 250$ and they might laugh too

Dan




Ben wrote:
> Reminds me of that old saying..
>
> Good, Fast, Cheap: Pick any two (you can't have all three).
>
> On 10/25/07, wayne alexander <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I keep seeing " I want cheap this & that, I dont want to pay alot for
anything for my EV"
>> well why dont you go out and buy a CNC ststem, plasma cutter, about
20K$ woth of hand tools, a 14x40 lathe, and start making your own, this
way you wont have to pay for anything.
>> But asking a business to make or give you "CHEAP" THEY WILL LAUGH
AT YOU.
>> then when some other cheap skate ask you to make some thing cheap
for him, your gonna say "ARE YOU NUTS, YOU KNOW HOW MUCH ALL THIS CRAP
COST ME TO RUN A BUSINESS" lolololol Wayne ev-blue.com

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Discussion Starter #10
Raw materials are a miniscule fraction of the cost of operating a fab.
The facilities where Intel and AMD manufacture quad core processors each
cost well over US$1 billion to build and cost a considerable amount to
operate. Tooling and calibration for a single die costs millions.
Semiconductor manufacturers are struggling to recover the costs of those
fabs by selling enough volume before the next one must be built. They
appear to be insanely profitable, but it is all based on cash flow
versus astounding operating costs. They strive to keep their profitable
legacy businesses running while shoveling their cash into development of
the next generation of smaller scale devices.

The economy of scale that you speak of is in manufacturing unit numbers,
and of course that applies to motor controllers as well, but such
economies are more or less linear with volume and cannot be compared to
the exponential increase in information density that has driven the
semiconductor industry for the last 30 years.

The scale issue that I was talking about is Moore's Law, which concerns
the scale of the features on a semiconductor die. The cost of a quad
core Pentium today is comparable a Z-80 in 1980 - the 4xP6 die is about
3x the size of the Z-80, and it costs about three times as much. That
just does not apply to motor controllers. The physical scale of the high
power parts cannot be reduced. The micro parts in the assembly are not
significant - a suitable microcontroller is already cheap. The expensive
things are the enormous FETs that carry the current, and the fast
switching high current transistors driving the gates on the big FETs,
the big caps and inductors and high voltage semiconductors in the
switcher, and the management of large induced voltages, heat
dissipation, and other layout and construction considerations. Those
components are old technology and they might get 50% cheaper with
manufacturing scale, no more.

Moore's Law applies to information management circuitry, which can be
made to run faster and move more bits while reducing the physical scale
of the circuitry and thus the power consumption. It does not apply to
devices whose purpose is to control large amounts of power.

Note also that Moore's Law has NOT made computers a lot cheaper; it has
made them a lot faster and denser at the same price. A bleeding edge
system still costs $5-10k, just like it did in 1980. It's just that the
bleeding edge does a lot more. And don't tell me you couldn't buy a
great budget computer for a few hundred $$ back then like you can now.
Can you say Commodore? How about Timex Sinclair? And neither of those
computers would cost much less to manufacture today than they did then.

[As a side note, power density in microprocessors has been decreasing at
a decelerating rate with respect to gate density, which is why current
processes have hit a bit of a wall in the 3-5GHz range. The operating
voltages are decreasing at something like 85% the rate of the feature
geometry and so the power density of the current crop of microprocessors
is too high; increased speeds are now accompanied by messy and expensive
cooling systems. The theoretical limit of silicon based switching speeds
is still a ways off, but the voltage can't be reduced much without
hitting the noise floor.]

- kent

On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:26:10 -0400, "Gilbert, Brian D (GE Infra,
Energy)" <[email protected]> said:
> You seem to be arguing that if we could get economy of scale going for
> us, AC motors and controllers would be cheap. You use the semiconductor
> industry to try to prove your point, but they have had economy of scale
> on their side for decades, and their progress is technology limited, not
> scale limited.
>
> The technology for AC controllers and motors is not technology limited,
> nor is it scale limited either. Several companies make AC induction
> motors and controllers in the sizes required for EV use, and they make
> lots of them for industrial machines. THEY ARE NOT CHEAP. In fact,
> Otmar's controllers and Advanced DC motors are significantly less
> expensive.
>
> Batteries are the limiting factor right now. They are technology AND
> scale limited. Even with A123Systems batteries you would need more than
> 10000 of them (a lot more!) to go 300 miles in a 250wh/m vehicle. The
> Tesla had to use older technology batteries so they could get around the
> scale issues, but they have more limited discharge/recharge, can explode
> easily, and aren't that cheap anyways.
>
> And how can you say that a quad-core with billions of transistors is
> cheap? Last I checked, the materials going into a processor cost a few
> pennies! $250 for a processor is outrageous!
>
> Brian
>
>
>
> some truth to that but also som bullshit if that was the case it would
> be hard to explain the consumer computer industry where you can have
> killer products dirt cheap
>
> go back in time and ask someone to make you a quad core cpu with a
> billion transistors at a few gigahertz for 250$ and they might laugh too
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
> Ben wrote:
> > Reminds me of that old saying..
> >
> > Good, Fast, Cheap: Pick any two (you can't have all three).
> >
> > On 10/25/07, wayne alexander <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> I keep seeing " I want cheap this & that, I dont want to pay alot for
> anything for my EV"
> >> well why dont you go out and buy a CNC ststem, plasma cutter, about
> 20K$ woth of hand tools, a 14x40 lathe, and start making your own, this
> way you wont have to pay for anything.
> >> But asking a business to make or give you "CHEAP" THEY WILL LAUGH
> AT YOU.
> >> then when some other cheap skate ask you to make some thing cheap
> for him, your gonna say "ARE YOU NUTS, YOU KNOW HOW MUCH ALL THIS CRAP
> COST ME TO RUN A BUSINESS" lolololol Wayne ev-blue.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Discussion Starter #11
Not everyone is like that. When I was building my EV I looked around for
the best price but I also sought out the vendors that had a good reputation.
I actually paid a little more for several of the items that I bought because
I got them from a business that had a reputation for standing behind their
product and also for giving the customer good service. BTW, I do not regret
it one bit as I have not had any problems from any items that I bought to
this date.

Keep racking up the EV miles.

Thanks, Freddie

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/899
http://www.southernev.com/dakotaev.htm






-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of wayne alexander
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 9:55 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] cheap cheap cheap!!!!!!

I keep seeing " I want cheap this & that, I dont want to pay alot for
anything for my EV"
well why dont you go out and buy a CNC ststem, plasma cutter, about 20K$
woth of hand tools, a 14x40 lathe, and start making your own, this way you
wont have to pay for anything.
But asking a business to make or give you "CHEAP" THEY WILL LAUGH AT YOU.
then when some other cheap skate ask you to make some thing cheap for him,
your gonna say "ARE YOU NUTS, YOU KNOW HOW MUCH ALL THIS CRAP COST ME TO RUN
A BUSINESS" lolololol Wayne ev-blue.com
_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



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Discussion Starter #12
Oh, yeah, and I agree 100% that energy storage is the primary limiting
factor in EVs. The difference between the best LiIon on NiMH and and
any lead-acid variant is incremental, or a small multiplier at best.
100lbs of gasoline still stores WAY more energy than 1000lbs of any
battery. All of those other cost discussions are kind of irrelevant in
the face of that glowering reality.

- kent


On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:28:20 -0700, "Kent Forschmiedt"
<[email protected]> said:
> Raw materials are a miniscule fraction of the cost of operating a fab.
> The facilities where Intel and AMD manufacture quad core processors each
> cost well over US$1 billion to build and cost a considerable amount to
> operate. Tooling and calibration for a single die costs millions.
> Semiconductor manufacturers are struggling to recover the costs of those
> fabs by selling enough volume before the next one must be built. They
> appear to be insanely profitable, but it is all based on cash flow
> versus astounding operating costs. They strive to keep their profitable
> legacy businesses running while shoveling their cash into development of
> the next generation of smaller scale devices.
>
> The economy of scale that you speak of is in manufacturing unit numbers,
> and of course that applies to motor controllers as well, but such
> economies are more or less linear with volume and cannot be compared to
> the exponential increase in information density that has driven the
> semiconductor industry for the last 30 years.
>
> The scale issue that I was talking about is Moore's Law, which concerns
> the scale of the features on a semiconductor die. The cost of a quad
> core Pentium today is comparable a Z-80 in 1980 - the 4xP6 die is about
> 3x the size of the Z-80, and it costs about three times as much. That
> just does not apply to motor controllers. The physical scale of the high
> power parts cannot be reduced. The micro parts in the assembly are not
> significant - a suitable microcontroller is already cheap. The expensive
> things are the enormous FETs that carry the current, and the fast
> switching high current transistors driving the gates on the big FETs,
> the big caps and inductors and high voltage semiconductors in the
> switcher, and the management of large induced voltages, heat
> dissipation, and other layout and construction considerations. Those
> components are old technology and they might get 50% cheaper with
> manufacturing scale, no more.
>
> Moore's Law applies to information management circuitry, which can be
> made to run faster and move more bits while reducing the physical scale
> of the circuitry and thus the power consumption. It does not apply to
> devices whose purpose is to control large amounts of power.
>
> Note also that Moore's Law has NOT made computers a lot cheaper; it has
> made them a lot faster and denser at the same price. A bleeding edge
> system still costs $5-10k, just like it did in 1980. It's just that the
> bleeding edge does a lot more. And don't tell me you couldn't buy a
> great budget computer for a few hundred $$ back then like you can now.
> Can you say Commodore? How about Timex Sinclair? And neither of those
> computers would cost much less to manufacture today than they did then.
>
> [As a side note, power density in microprocessors has been decreasing at
> a decelerating rate with respect to gate density, which is why current
> processes have hit a bit of a wall in the 3-5GHz range. The operating
> voltages are decreasing at something like 85% the rate of the feature
> geometry and so the power density of the current crop of microprocessors
> is too high; increased speeds are now accompanied by messy and expensive
> cooling systems. The theoretical limit of silicon based switching speeds
> is still a ways off, but the voltage can't be reduced much without
> hitting the noise floor.]
>
> - kent
>
> On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:26:10 -0400, "Gilbert, Brian D (GE Infra,
> Energy)" <[email protected]> said:
> > You seem to be arguing that if we could get economy of scale going for
> > us, AC motors and controllers would be cheap. You use the semiconductor
> > industry to try to prove your point, but they have had economy of scale
> > on their side for decades, and their progress is technology limited, not
> > scale limited.
> >
> > The technology for AC controllers and motors is not technology limited,
> > nor is it scale limited either. Several companies make AC induction
> > motors and controllers in the sizes required for EV use, and they make
> > lots of them for industrial machines. THEY ARE NOT CHEAP. In fact,
> > Otmar's controllers and Advanced DC motors are significantly less
> > expensive.
> >
> > Batteries are the limiting factor right now. They are technology AND
> > scale limited. Even with A123Systems batteries you would need more than
> > 10000 of them (a lot more!) to go 300 miles in a 250wh/m vehicle. The
> > Tesla had to use older technology batteries so they could get around the
> > scale issues, but they have more limited discharge/recharge, can explode
> > easily, and aren't that cheap anyways.
> >
> > And how can you say that a quad-core with billions of transistors is
> > cheap? Last I checked, the materials going into a processor cost a few
> > pennies! $250 for a processor is outrageous!
> >
> > Brian
> >
> >
> >
> > some truth to that but also som bullshit if that was the case it would
> > be hard to explain the consumer computer industry where you can have
> > killer products dirt cheap
> >
> > go back in time and ask someone to make you a quad core cpu with a
> > billion transistors at a few gigahertz for 250$ and they might laugh too
> >
> > Dan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Ben wrote:
> > > Reminds me of that old saying..
> > >
> > > Good, Fast, Cheap: Pick any two (you can't have all three).
> > >
> > > On 10/25/07, wayne alexander <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> I keep seeing " I want cheap this & that, I dont want to pay alot for
> > anything for my EV"
> > >> well why dont you go out and buy a CNC ststem, plasma cutter, about
> > 20K$ woth of hand tools, a 14x40 lathe, and start making your own, this
> > way you wont have to pay for anything.
> > >> But asking a business to make or give you "CHEAP" THEY WILL LAUGH
> > AT YOU.
> > >> then when some other cheap skate ask you to make some thing cheap
> > for him, your gonna say "ARE YOU NUTS, YOU KNOW HOW MUCH ALL THIS CRAP
> > COST ME TO RUN A BUSINESS" lolololol Wayne ev-blue.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Discussion Starter #13
Everything is relative. What's cheap for one, is unobtainium for others.
We are living in a world, where one can buy a complete outfit (including
shoes) for about 100 Dollars. One the other hand, if there wouldn't be
WalMart, a quarter of the population of this country would go broke right
away.

So - 2000 Dollars for a controller might be a fair deal, but others are
buying complete cars for that kind of money. Take all the necessary
modules and batteries, one could almost get a new car for that.

So, yes, cheap *is* important so that EVs are feasible even for the lower
income 1/3 of the American population. Yes, I know, one could built an EV
on a dime, but that's not the point.

Let's be realistic: Not talking about us here, but who else would spend
about 6,000 to 10,000 USD for a car or truck that runs about 50 or 60
Miles, most likely doesn't even have air conditioning and requires a lot
of 'do-it-yourself' ? I always see the raised eyebrows of my friends
whenever it is battery maintenance time.

So - anybody with cheap LiPos here ?

Michaela


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Discussion Starter #14
The economics of high density microelectronics does not apply to most other aspects of progress, but people like to apply Moore's law to everything. Like one day we'll have solar panels that output a million times more energy than they do today, or gas cars that look and feel exactly as they do today but magically have 200-300mpg. It just doesn't work that way. You always hit a point of diminishing returns due to the laws of physics.


----- Original Message ----
The economics of high density microelectronics does not apply to power
circuitry.




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Discussion Starter #15
AMEN
Rich Va
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michaela Merz" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cheap cheap cheap!!!!!!


>
> Everything is relative. What's cheap for one, is unobtainium for others.
> We are living in a world, where one can buy a complete outfit (including
> shoes) for about 100 Dollars. One the other hand, if there wouldn't be
> WalMart, a quarter of the population of this country would go broke right
> away.
>
> So - 2000 Dollars for a controller might be a fair deal, but others are
> buying complete cars for that kind of money. Take all the necessary
> modules and batteries, one could almost get a new car for that.
>
> So, yes, cheap *is* important so that EVs are feasible even for the lower
> income 1/3 of the American population. Yes, I know, one could built an EV
> on a dime, but that's not the point.
>
> Let's be realistic: Not talking about us here, but who else would spend
> about 6,000 to 10,000 USD for a car or truck that runs about 50 or 60
> Miles, most likely doesn't even have air conditioning and requires a lot
> of 'do-it-yourself' ? I always see the raised eyebrows of my friends
> whenever it is battery maintenance time.
>
> So - anybody with cheap LiPos here ?
>
> Michaela
>
>
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