DIY Electric Car Forums banner

1 - 12 of 12 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Using a very complex system of planetary ring and sun gears, plus three clutches and two electric motors, GM engineers were able to extract additional efficiency and range out of the system; up to "two miles," with the help of the ICE in direct drive mode which includes the traction motor at all times states GM's technical paper .

As the paper describes it, the Volt has four driving modes: single motor EV, two motor EV, single motor extended-range, two motor extended range combined. The single e-motor (EM1) is used to launch the vehicle and operate at it lower speeds. It can develop 111kW of power, giving the car brisk acceleration. For high-speed EV-only travel, the electric generator that is attached to the IC engine, converts into an electric motor (EM2), providing additional torque to propel the vehicle using battery power only.

>From EV World. http://evworld.com/currents.cfm?jid=154
Lawrence Rhodes...

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
Sounds like too much to go wrong to me! Got to keep Mr Goodwrench
busy:)


Lawrence Rhodes wrote:

> Using a very complex system of planetary ring and sun gears, plus
> three clutches and two electric motors, GM engineers were able to
> extract additional efficiency and range out of the system; up to
> "two miles," with the help of the ICE in direct drive mode which
> includes the traction motor at all times states GM's technical paper .
>
> As the paper describes it, the Volt has four driving modes: single
> motor EV, two motor EV, single motor extended-range, two motor
> extended range combined. The single e-motor (EM1) is used to launch
> the vehicle and operate at it lower speeds. It can develop 111kW of
> power, giving the car brisk acceleration. For high-speed EV-only
> travel, the electric generator that is attached to the IC engine,
> converts into an electric motor (EM2), providing additional torque
> to propel the vehicle using battery power only.
>
>> From EV World. http://evworld.com/currents.cfm?jid=154
> Lawrence Rhodes...
>

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
It sounds really cool, actually. It's like having your cake and
eating it too and keeping all different kinds of cakes in the car
depending on what kind of cake you want to eat at the time...

Okay, kind of complicated. But all cars are complicated now. Look at
a 1960 Austin Mini. It does all the car things that we expect and it
cost very little at the time. The modern Mini has all kinds of
gadgets and wires and valves and stuff. Makes it look like it's worth
spending $20k for one.

Personally I'd rather have the 1960 Mini with an electric motor
instead of the boat anchor ICE, but I could never pass it off for a
$20k car. Which is very strange... you'd think there would be a
market for an electric car that only cost $10k. Hmmm...

sean

On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 1:00 PM, Roger Heuckeroth
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Sounds like too much to go wrong to me! Got to keep Mr Goodwrench
> busy:)
>
>
>
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
>> Using a very complex system of planetary ring and sun gears, plus
>> three clutches and two electric motors, GM engineers were able to
>> extract additional efficiency and range out of the system; up to
>> "two miles," with the help of the ICE in direct drive mode which
>> includes the traction motor at all times states GM's technical paper .
>>
>> As the paper describes it, the Volt has four driving modes: single
>> motor EV, two motor EV, single motor extended-range, two motor
>> extended range combined. The single e-motor (EM1) is used to launch
>> the vehicle and operate at it lower speeds. It can develop 111kW of
>> power, giving the car brisk acceleration. For high-speed EV-only
>> travel, the electric generator that is attached to the IC engine,
>> converts into an electric motor (EM2), providing additional torque
>> to propel the vehicle using battery power only.
>>
>>> From EV World. http://evworld.com/currents.cfm?jid=3D154
>> Lawrence Rhodes...
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



-- =

Sean Korb [email protected] http://www.spkorb.org
'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Sean Korb wrote:

> t sounds really cool, actually. It's like having your cake and
> eating it too and keeping all different kinds of cakes in the car
> depending on what kind of cake you want to eat at the time...
>
> Okay, kind of complicated. But all cars are complicated now.

Electric cars are supposed to be simple, IMHO. That is one of the
things that make them great. The Volt is probably no more complicated
than a Prius, but both are significantly more complicated than a Leaf,
and far far more complicated than a conversion.



_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
"There are NEVs that are around $10k, a "flop" product it seems."

Well it's because of the limit on speed that makes them a flop. Who wants a
street legal golf cart? Not me.

Pete :)

-----
If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. :)
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Chevy-Volt-really-complex-EV-s-are-supposed-to-be-simple-tp2997297p2997572.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
On 15 Oct 2010 at 13:56, Sean Korb wrote:

> you'd think there would be a market for an electric car that only cost
> $10k.

You'd think so, but consider who your most likely initial customer is - a
person with "green" tendencies. Advertisers will tell you that these folks
tend to be upscale professionals.

It's anecdotal, but typical : one of my coworkers lives on the edge of a
lower-income neighborhood. She goes to the supermarket near her home and
everyone is taking home groceries in disposable plastic bags. Meanwhile,
when she goes to the fancy, pricey rich folks' market in the area of 7-
figure homes, all the other shoppers give her dirty looks if she forgets her
reusable tote bag.

I want to believe that anyone can be an EV owner, but realistically, I don't
see much percentage in selling to the low end of the market for a long time
to come, if ever. If you can sell a car for $10k as an EV, you can probably
sell it for $7k as an ICE. In the "price-sensitive" market segment, I know
which one will win. Meanwhile, most folks who happily pay 50% or more extra
for recycled TP and "organic" produce won't look twice at either car.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
I disagree, I lived in the middle of that low income neighborhood and wished
beyond all wishes that we could buy affordable organic. I would have
purchased an electric car of $10,000 in a heartbeat but the problem is those
who insist that organic is bunk and that electric is bunk and that low cost
but quality cars that get excellent mileage are bunk and that no one wants
them. It is a myth that low income folks drive this market of high priced
garbage.

Pete :)

-----
If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. :)
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Chevy-Volt-really-complex-EV-s-are-supposed-to-be-simple-tp2997297p2997607.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
On 15 Oct 2010 at 12:50, gottdi wrote:

> I disagree, I lived in the middle of that low income neighborhood and wished
> beyond all wishes that we could buy affordable organic ...

Understood, but you're not typical of those residents. For one thing,
you're probably much more well-educated than most of them.

One of the worst mistakes a manager can make is assuming that his or her
interests and tastes are typical of the customer.

To put it another way, most people are not successful entrepreneurs. Thus,
by definition, if your target customer is someone just like you, you won't
have many customers! ;-)

Seriously, it seems elementary, but many business folks seem to forget it.
In a mature, competitive marketplace, a successful business usually doesn't
start with a product. It starts with a customer. First you pick your
customer (demographically or psychographically). You find out what they
actually want or need. You make it at a price they're willing to pay.
Voila.

It sounds great to say "we'll educate the public," and that's almost a
mantra with EV lovers. It doesn't work, ESPECIALLY when you don't have a
multi-million dollar advertising budget. WE know that 50 miles a day is
plenty, but guess what - folks who actually buy new vehicles don't think so.
It's not just in EVs that thousands of businesses have gone bust making what
their owners or managers THOUGHT their customers should want or need.

If you choose to build EVs, you might find a few low income buyers; but
statistically speaking, you're limiting yourself to an upscale customer, at
least for the foreseeable future. This defines not just what the consumer
can afford to pay; but more importantly, what he or she will demand in terms
of quality, comfort, size, utility, reliability, and much more.

This is one reason that sales of the second generation Prius far outstripped
those of the first generation Prius - it better met the needs and wants of
those likely to buy a "green" car. It's also why the Nissan Leaf is much
more likely to be successful in the US than is the Mitsubishi i-MiEV.

The market for EVs is small enough already. Targeting consumers who
research will tell you have little interest in "greenness" - and in EVs -
would be a short cut to bankruptcy.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
http://www.electroauto.com/
http://www.ev-blue.com/
http://www.e-volks.com/


All cater to the low end.



________________________________
From: EVDL Administrator <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, October 15, 2010 1:32:49 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Chevy Volt really complex. EV's are supposed to be simple.

... I want to believe that anyone can be an EV owner, but realistically, I don't

see much percentage in selling to the low end of the market for a long time
to come, if ever. If you can sell a car for $10k as an EV, you can probably
sell it for $7k as an ICE. In the "price-sensitive" market segment, I know
which one will win. ...



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20101015/06a7cfe7/attachment.html
_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
On 15 Oct 2010 at 16:51, David Dymaxion wrote:

> http://www.electroauto.com/
> http://www.ev-blue.com/
> http://www.e-volks.com/
>
>
> All cater to the low end.
>

Sure. These companies are selling conversion parts and kits, not complete
vehicles. For that, catering to the lower end makes sense. The target
consumer is completely different.

I didn't really want to get much into this as it's only peripherally related
to EVs, and also because my information in this area is dated. But for
anyone who's considering EVs as a business, this may be useful information.
So here we go.

The terms below have been superseded since I was studying psychographics
over a decade ago, but I think they may still be useful in this context.
They come from the VALS ("values and lifestyles") and VALS2 definitions,
based on the research of Abraham Maslow and developed in the 1970s by SRI
International. There are several of these categories, but the ones of main
interest to us in this context are Actualizers and Makers.

The folks who favor "green" products, including EVs, tend to be Actualizers.

Those likely to build their own EVs would be Makers.

The VALS2 system divides consumers along two axes. The vertical axis
represents resources, with those who have more access to spendable income at
the top and those with less at the bottom. The horizontal axis represents
orientation (principle on the left, status in the middle, and action at the
right).

You can see an updated version of this grid here :

http://www.strategicbusinessinsights.com/vals/ustypes.shtml

What they now call Innovators are the Actualizers of the earlier version I
have experience with.

First, Actualizers. These would be your most likely customers if you were
building complete EVs. Actualizers see their jobs as careers and many own
their own businesses. They have high incomes. They are cognizant of social
issues, and participate widely in politics and in business and social clubs.
They seek to make a difference in the world. They are open to new products
and tend to go for the latest gadgets. They often purchase products that
reflect their concern for the environment.

Makers experience the world by working on it - building a house, raising
children, fixing a car, canning vegetables. They're self-sufficient, and
tend to be socially conservative. They love physical work and recreation.
They take little interest in society as a whole unless they perceive it as
interfering with their rights. They're unimpressed by material possessions
other than those with a practical or functional purpose. They prefer value
to luxury. They have moderate incomes.

In the 2-axis VALS grid, Actualizers and Makers are widely separated.
Actualizers are at the very top. Makers are at bottom right. This is a
graphic depiction of how hard it is to market a product or service to both
categories.

And in fact as I suggested above, EV parts and kits would appeal more to
Makers, and complete EVs would appeal more to Actualizers.

Does this make it clearer, or is it just more jargon?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Have to disagree, E-Volks and EV-Blue sell complete vehicles as well as parts.
E-Volks has sold of the order of 100 vehicles, I believe EV-blue about that
number, too. E-Volks has also spun off other folks that sell completed vehicles
(the president asked me personally if I wanted to do that, BTW). It looks like
these two companies are selling to both makers and actualizers.




________________________________
From: EVDL Administrator <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, October 15, 2010 7:00:39 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Chevy Volt really complex. EV's are supposed to be simple.

On 15 Oct 2010 at 16:51, David Dymaxion wrote:

> http://www.electroauto.com/
> http://www.ev-blue.com/
> http://www.e-volks.com/
>
>
> All cater to the low end.
>

Sure. These companies are selling conversion parts and kits, not complete
vehicles. For that, catering to the lower end makes sense. The target
consumer is completely different.

I didn't really want to get much into this as it's only peripherally related
to EVs, and also because my information in this area is dated. But for
anyone who's considering EVs as a business, this may be useful information.
So here we go.

The terms below have been superseded since I was studying psychographics
over a decade ago, but I think they may still be useful in this context.
They come from the VALS ("values and lifestyles") and VALS2 definitions,
based on the research of Abraham Maslow and developed in the 1970s by SRI
International. There are several of these categories, but the ones of main
interest to us in this context are Actualizers and Makers.

The folks who favor "green" products, including EVs, tend to be Actualizers.

Those likely to build their own EVs would be Makers.

The VALS2 system divides consumers along two axes. The vertical axis
represents resources, with those who have more access to spendable income at
the top and those with less at the bottom. The horizontal axis represents
orientation (principle on the left, status in the middle, and action at the
right).

You can see an updated version of this grid here :

http://www.strategicbusinessinsights.com/vals/ustypes.shtml

What they now call Innovators are the Actualizers of the earlier version I
have experience with.

First, Actualizers. These would be your most likely customers if you were
building complete EVs. Actualizers see their jobs as careers and many own
their own businesses. They have high incomes. They are cognizant of social
issues, and participate widely in politics and in business and social clubs.
They seek to make a difference in the world. They are open to new products
and tend to go for the latest gadgets. They often purchase products that
reflect their concern for the environment.

Makers experience the world by working on it - building a house, raising
children, fixing a car, canning vegetables. They're self-sufficient, and
tend to be socially conservative. They love physical work and recreation.
They take little interest in society as a whole unless they perceive it as
interfering with their rights. They're unimpressed by material possessions
other than those with a practical or functional purpose. They prefer value
to luxury. They have moderate incomes.

In the 2-axis VALS grid, Actualizers and Makers are widely separated.
Actualizers are at the very top. Makers are at bottom right. This is a
graphic depiction of how hard it is to market a product or service to both
categories.

And in fact as I suggested above, EV parts and kits would appeal more to
Makers, and complete EVs would appeal more to Actualizers.

Does this make it clearer, or is it just more jargon?



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20101015/eeabe32e/attachment.html
_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
David,
Your analysis of how to be an entrepreneur- define the customer first-
is right on.

I fall into the maker group. My last new car was in 1964. Built a
solar water heater 30 years ago. Heat the house with wood, etc.
Anyway, I have ordered a Volt. Go figure.

EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
a. There are several of these categories, but the ones of main
> interest to us in this context are Actualizers and Makers.
>
> The folks who favor "green" products, including EVs, tend to be Actualize=
rs.
>
> Those likely to build their own EVs would be Makers.
>


> First, Actualizers. These would be your most likely customers if you w=
ere
> building complete EVs. Actualizers see their jobs as careers and many =
own
> their own businesses. They have high incomes. They are cognizant of=
social
> issues, and participate widely in politics and in business and social clu=
bs.
> They seek to make a difference in the world. They are open to new prod=
ucts
> and tend to go for the latest gadgets. They often purchase products th=
at
> reflect their concern for the environment.
>
> Makers experience the world by working on it - building a house, raising
> children, fixing a car, canning vegetables. They're self-sufficient, a=
nd
> tend to be socially conservative. They love physical work and recreati=
on.
> They take little interest in society as a whole unless they perceive it as
> interfering with their rights. They're unimpressed by material possess=
ions
> other than those with a practical or functional purpose. They prefer value
> to luxury. They have moderate incomes.
>
> In the 2-axis VALS grid, Actualizers and Makers are widely separated.
> Actualizers are at the very top. Makers are at bottom right. This i=
s a
> graphic depiction of how hard it is to market a product or service to both
> categories.
>

> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>


http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 
1 - 12 of 12 Posts
Top