[EVDL] Consumer reports on the Volt vs the Leaf

Bob Bath <[email protected]> wrote:

> I still don't see it. Most Leaf customers are purchasing to get _away_
> from gasoline; even for cabin heating. And apparently Nissan went with
> steering wheel heating, cabin ventilation, from what I've heard.
>
> Thinking about converting a gen. 5 ('92-95) Honda Civic? See
> http://home.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html for DVD and tons more
> info!
> ____
> __/__|__\__
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
> wheel?
> OR Lic. "LCTRNS"
>
>
> --- On Sat, 3/5/11, Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > From: Larry Gales <[email protected]>
> > Subject: [EVDL] Consumer reports on the Volt vs the Leaf
> > To: "SEVA" <[email protected]>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <
> [email protected]>
> > Date: Saturday, March 5, 2011, 2:30 PM
> > The April 2011 Consumer Reports
> > review of the Leaf came out much better
> > than the Volt. But the Consumer report supports
> > something that I have
> > emphasized for a while: that cold weather is a major
> > limitation of pure EVs
> > which could be almost entirely eliminated if manufacturer's
> > would include a
> > small gasoline heater to heat the batteries and the
> > passengers.
> >
> > By my calculations, which I have previously posted in
> > emails to SEVA and
> > EVDL, most people could drive 12,000 miles per year and
> > only consume 2-3
> > gallons of gasoline per year, while eliminating the cold
> > weather problems of
> > EVs. Even in a climate like Michigan, 5-6
> > gallons of gasoline could make
> > the EV function as if it were in San Diego (except for
> > increased rolling
> > resistance if there is snow on the road).
> >
> > This seems like a tiny price to pay to eliminate one of the
> > biggest barriers
> > to the adoption of EVs. I hope that the manufacturers
> > will listen to this.
> >
> > --
> > Larry Gales
> > -------------- next part --------------
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>
>
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--
Larry Gales
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Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:

> When you reduce gasoline consumption from 400 gallons a year (for an ICE
> engine at 30 mpg for 12,000 miles) to *2* galllons per year, you have
> reduced your gas consumption to 1/2 of 1% of an ICE. I would say that that
> will get you away from gasoline.
>
> -- Larry
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Bob Bath <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I still don't see it. Most Leaf customers are purchasing to get _away_
>> from gasoline; even for cabin heating. And apparently Nissan went with
>> steering wheel heating, cabin ventilation, from what I've heard.
>>
>> Thinking about converting a gen. 5 ('92-95) Honda Civic? See
>> http://home.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html for DVD and tons mo
>> info!
>> ____
>> __/__|__\__
>> =D-------/ - - \
>> 'O'-----'O'-'
>> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
>> wheel?
>> OR Lic. "LCTRNS"
>>
>>
>> --- On Sat, 3/5/11, Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> From: Larry Gales <[email protected]>
>>> Subject: [EVDL] Consumer reports on the Volt vs the Leaf
>>> To: "SEVA" <[email protected]>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <
>> [email protected]>
>>> Date: Saturday, March 5, 2011, 2:30 PM
>>> The April 2011 Consumer Reports
>>> review of the Leaf came out much better
>>> than the Volt. But the Consumer report supports
>>> something that I have
>>> emphasized for a while: that cold weather is a major
>>> limitation of pure EVs
>>> which could be almost entirely eliminated if manufacturer's
>>> would include a
>>> small gasoline heater to heat the batteries and the
>>> passengers.
>>>
>>> By my calculations, which I have previously posted in
>>> emails to SEVA and
>>> EVDL, most people could drive 12,000 miles per year and
>>> only consume 2-3
>>> gallons of gasoline per year, while eliminating the cold
>>> weather problems of
>>> EVs. Even in a climate like Michigan, 5-6
>>> gallons of gasoline could make
>>> the EV function as if it were in San Diego (except for
>>> increased rolling
>>> resistance if there is snow on the road).
>>>
>>> This seems like a tiny price to pay to eliminate one of the
>>> biggest barriers
>>> to the adoption of EVs. I hope that the manufacturers
>>> will listen to this.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Larry Gales
>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> URL:
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20110305/92d922e7/attachment.html
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> Larry Gales
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Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:
> Here are the calculations I used in a posting to SEVA / EVDL a few months
> ago ( note that the calculations were for a severe climate such as Michig=
an,
> and we needed 5.8 gallons/year of gas. In most of the rest of the coun=
try
> we would need much less, hence the estimate of 2-3 gallons/year. One
> mistake I made below is assuming that gasoline heaters are 100% effici=
ent
> at producing heat, whereas 88% seems more reasonable, but that does not
> change the picture much):
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------------------
> Cold weather takes a huge toll on the range of EVs. It appears to cut =
the
> range of the
> Mitsubishi iMiev almost in half, and cut the range of the Nissan Leaf by
> 20-40%. It is a very
> large problem in search of a solution.
>
> You can compute the BTUs needed to heat a room at this website:
>
> http://www.hearth.com/calc/btucalc.html
>
> I selected a cold climate (Michigan), poor insulation, and a volume of 12'
> by 5' by 8' (it
> assumes all ceilings are 8' tall). It computed that you need from 1200=
to
> 2400 BTU/HR to heat
> that room. Now the Leaf is built on the Nissan Versa platform, and that
> appears to have an
> interior volume of roughly 150 cubic feet, as per this URL:
>
> http://www.nissanusa.com/versa/specifications-hatchback.ht=
ml
>
> Now 12 x 5 x 8 =3D 480 cu. ft, which is 3.2 times the volume of the
> Versa/Leaf. However, the Leaf
> will typically be traveling at 30 MPH which will suck extra heat out of t=
he
> car compared with a
> room. Still, with only 1/3 the volume, you would think 2400 BTUs would be
> enough. But to be on
> the extra save side I assumed you need 5000 BTUs/HR, or about 1.5 KW.
>
> Now one gallon of gasoline contains 115,000 BTUs:
>
> http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/energy_conv.html
>
> While gasoline is very inefficient at running motors, it is 100% efficient
> at generating heat, so
> 5000 BTUs should last (115000/5000) =3D 23 hours. If we assume that th=
e Leaf
> averages 30 MPH, then
> we get 23*30 =3D 690 miles/gallon. Since we don't use heat during the =
Summer,
> and even during the
> Winter we don't always use maximum heat, we can assume that we average ab=
out
> 1/3 the heat
> capacity of the gasoline heater. That translates to 3*690 =3D 2070
> miles/gallon. If we drive
> 12,000 miles/yr, that translates to 5.8 gallons/year.
>
> Now 5.8 gallons/year is but 1-2% of the gasoline needed to run an ICE car
> for a year. It seems a
> VERY small price to pay for eliminating one of the biggest barriers to the
> use of EVs. Yet,
> Nissan, Mitsubishi, THINK, and other production EVs lack such a heater.
>
> So am I missing something here, or are my calculations way off?
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 4:29 PM, Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]>=
wrote:
>
>> Larry, intuitively your 2 gal/ year estimate seams out of whack. Do y=
ou
>> want to show us your calcs?
>>
>> What are your assumptions besides 12,000 miles? What climate? How =
many
>> miles driven with heat? What BTU/hr heater output? What heater eff=
iciency?
>> What average speed?
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Mar 5, 2011, at 6:30 PM, Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > When you reduce gasoline consumption from 400 gallons a year (for an I=
CE
>> > engine at 30 mpg for 12,000 miles) to *2* galllons per year, you have
>> > reduced your gas consumption to 1/2 of 1% of an ICE. I would say th=
at
>> that
>> > will get you away from gasoline.
>> >
>> > -- Larry
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Bob Bath <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I still don't see it. Most Leaf customers are purchasing to get _a=
way_
>> >> from gasoline; even for cabin heating. And apparently Nissan went =
with
>> >> steering wheel heating, cabin ventilation, from what I've heard.
>> >>
>> >> Thinking about converting a gen. 5 ('92-95) Honda Civic? See
>> >> http://home.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html for DVD and tons mo
>> >> info!
>> >> ____
>> >> __/__|__\__
>> >> =3DD-------/ - - \
>> >> 'O'-----'O'-'
>> >> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steeri=
ng
>> >> wheel?
>> >> OR Lic. "LCTRNS"
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --- On Sat, 3/5/11, Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> From: Larry Gales <[email protected]>
>> >>> Subject: [EVDL] Consumer reports on the Volt vs the Leaf
>> >>> To: "SEVA" <[email protected]>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"=
<
>> >> [email protected]>
>> >>> Date: Saturday, March 5, 2011, 2:30 PM
>> >>> The April 2011 Consumer Reports
>> >>> review of the Leaf came out much better
>> >>> than the Volt. But the Consumer report supports
>> >>> something that I have
>> >>> emphasized for a while: that cold weather is a major
>> >>> limitation of pure EVs
>> >>> which could be almost entirely eliminated if manufacturer's
>> >>> would include a
>> >>> small gasoline heater to heat the batteries and the
>> >>> passengers.
>> >>>
>> >>> By my calculations, which I have previously posted in
>> >>> emails to SEVA and
>> >>> EVDL, most people could drive 12,000 miles per year and
>> >>> only consume 2-3
>> >>> gallons of gasoline per year, while eliminating the cold
>> >>> weather problems of
>> >>> EVs. Even in a climate like Michigan, 5-6
>> >>> gallons of gasoline could make
>> >>> the EV function as if it were in San Diego (except for
>> >>> increased rolling
>> >>> resistance if there is snow on the road).
>> >>>
>> >>> This seems like a tiny price to pay to eliminate one of the
>> >>> biggest barriers
>> >>> to the adoption of EVs. I hope that the manufacturers
>> >>> will listen to this.
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Larry Gales
>> >>> -------------- next part --------------
>> >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>> >>
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ttachment.html
>> >>>
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>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Larry Gales
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>
>
>
> --
> Larry Gales
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-- =

http://www.evalbum.com/2149

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Bill Dube <[email protected]> wrote:

> On particularly cold days, I turn on the heater while still plugged
> in. This pre-heats the cabin and results in significantly less draw
> on the battery during my commute, since I can run the heater at a
> much lower level once the cabin is up to temperature.
>
> I don't know if the Leaf allows you to turn on the heater while on
> charge or not. If it does, then this is the obvious solution. If it
> doesn't, there is no doubt that someone will figure out a "hack" that
> will allow you to do it, because it makes so much sense.
>
> Bill D.
>
> At 03:30 PM 3/5/2011, you wrote:
> >The April 2011 Consumer Reports review of the Leaf came out much better
> >than the Volt. But the Consumer report supports something that I have
> >emphasized for a while: that cold weather is a major limitation of pure
> EVs
> >which could be almost entirely eliminated if manufacturer's would include
> a
> >small gasoline heater to heat the batteries and the passengers.
> >
> >By my calculations, which I have previously posted in emails to SEVA and
> >EVDL, most people could drive 12,000 miles per year and only consume 2-3
> >gallons of gasoline per year, while eliminating the cold weather problems
> of
> >EVs. Even in a climate like Michigan, 5-6 gallons of gasoline could make
> >the EV function as if it were in San Diego (except for increased rolling
> >resistance if there is snow on the road).
> >
> >This seems like a tiny price to pay to eliminate one of the biggest
> barriers
> >to the adoption of EVs. I hope that the manufacturers will listen to
> this.
> >
> >--
> >Larry Gales
> >-------------- next part --------------
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"Bill Dube" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> On particularly cold days, I turn on the heater while still plugged
> in. This pre-heats the cabin and results in significantly less draw
> on the battery during my commute, since I can run the heater at a
> much lower level once the cabin is up to temperature.
>
> I don't know if the Leaf allows you to turn on the heater while on
> charge or not. If it does, then this is the obvious solution. If it
> doesn't, there is no doubt that someone will figure out a "hack" that
> will allow you to do it, because it makes so much sense.
>
> Bill D.
>
> At 03:30 PM 3/5/2011, you wrote:
> >The April 2011 Consumer Reports review of the Leaf came out much better
> >than the Volt. But the Consumer report supports something that I have
> >emphasized for a while: that cold weather is a major limitation of pure
EVs
> >which could be almost entirely eliminated if manufacturer's would include
a
> >small gasoline heater to heat the batteries and the passengers.
> >
> >By my calculations, which I have previously posted in emails to SEVA and
> >EVDL, most people could drive 12,000 miles per year and only consume 2-3
> >gallons of gasoline per year, while eliminating the cold weather problems
of
> >EVs. Even in a climate like Michigan, 5-6 gallons of gasoline could
make
> >the EV function as if it were in San Diego (except for increased rolling
> >resistance if there is snow on the road).
> >
> >This seems like a tiny price to pay to eliminate one of the biggest
barriers
> >to the adoption of EVs. I hope that the manufacturers will listen to
this.
> >
> >--
> >Larry Gales
> >-------------- next part --------------
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>
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Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:

> The April 2011 Consumer Reports review of the Leaf came out much better
> than the Volt. But the Consumer report supports something that I have
> emphasized for a while: that cold weather is a major limitation of pure
> EVs
> which could be almost entirely eliminated if manufacturer's would include a
> small gasoline heater to heat the batteries and the passengers.
>
> By my calculations, which I have previously posted in emails to SEVA and
> EVDL, most people could drive 12,000 miles per year and only consume 2-3
> gallons of gasoline per year, while eliminating the cold weather problems
> of
> EVs. Even in a climate like Michigan, 5-6 gallons of gasoline could make
> the EV function as if it were in San Diego (except for increased rolling
> resistance if there is snow on the road).
>
> This seems like a tiny price to pay to eliminate one of the biggest
> barriers
> to the adoption of EVs. I hope that the manufacturers will listen to this.
>
> --
> Larry Gales
> -------------- next part --------------
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--
* **
*
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Bill Dube <[email protected]> wrote:

> If you pre-heat the car while plugged in, it will make a _huge_
> difference in the cold weather range. This is a fact. I doubt that
> the reviewers actually did this for the road test. They would never
> think of it because they have never commuted in an EV. They are used
> to cabin heat that comes as a by-product from the gross inefficiency
> of the ICE.
>
> Also, who commutes that far that they would need the full range? That
> would be just crazy. Buy a Volt instead.
>
> I also should note that on nasty winter days, all the traffic slows
> down. Thus, you use less energy per mile leaving a bit extra energy
> for heat. You don't come out even, but the heater range hit is not
> quite as bad as it would be if you drove at the full speed limit,
> like you would do on nice sunny days. Once you commute in an EV,
> these sorts of differences become obvious.
>
> Bill D.
>
> At 09:44 PM 3/5/2011, you wrote:
> >The Leaf does allow you to preheat the car using the house current
> >(this is well advertised and you can do it from your smart phone)
> >. However, all the reports I see about cold weather are that it
> >dramatically reduces the range, so pre-heating, while useful, does
> >not appear to be a sufficient solution.
> >
> >-- Larry
>
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--
Larry Gales
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Dennis Miles <[email protected]> wrote:

> Larry and others. I can see the heat problem and one solution is a
> fueled
> heater, but I would suggest using those one pound bottles of camp fuel,
> (Butane)not gasoline. Butane is not imported, and when burned it produces
> no
> Carbon-monoxide so it is safer also. The RV people have been using butane
> for cooking, and space heating, and hot water heaters for many years.
> *Regards,
> Dennis Lee Miles .COM
> [email protected] <[email protected]>
> Phone: 1 (863) 944 - 9913
> =====================================================
> *
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 5:30 PM, Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > The April 2011 Consumer Reports review of the Leaf came out much better
> > than the Volt. But the Consumer report supports something that I have
> > emphasized for a while: that cold weather is a major limitation of pure
> > EVs
> > which could be almost entirely eliminated if manufacturer's would include
> a
> > small gasoline heater to heat the batteries and the passengers.
> >
> > By my calculations, which I have previously posted in emails to SEVA and
> > EVDL, most people could drive 12,000 miles per year and only consume 2-3
> > gallons of gasoline per year, while eliminating the cold weather problems
> > of
> > EVs. Even in a climate like Michigan, 5-6 gallons of gasoline could
> make
> > the EV function as if it were in San Diego (except for increased rolling
> > resistance if there is snow on the road).
> >
> > This seems like a tiny price to pay to eliminate one of the biggest
> > barriers
> > to the adoption of EVs. I hope that the manufacturers will listen to
> this.
> >
> > --
> > Larry Gales
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> >
>
>
>
> --
> * **
> *
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--
Larry Gales
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Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:

> Yes, I think that is an excellent solution and is cleaner than gasoline.
>
> -- Larry
>
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 10:30 PM, Dennis Miles <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > Larry and others. I can see the heat problem and one solution is a
> > fueled
> > heater, but I would suggest using those one pound bottles of camp fuel,
> > (Butane)not gasoline. Butane is not imported, and when burned it produces
> > no
> > Carbon-monoxide so it is safer also. The RV people have been using butane
> > for cooking, and space heating, and hot water heaters for many years.
> > *Regards,
> > Dennis Lee Miles .COM
> > [email protected] <[email protected]>
> > Phone: 1 (863) 944 - 9913
> > =====================================================
> > *
> > On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 5:30 PM, Larry Gales <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > The April 2011 Consumer Reports review of the Leaf came out much
> better
> > > than the Volt. But the Consumer report supports something that I have
> > > emphasized for a while: that cold weather is a major limitation of
> pure
> > > EVs
> > > which could be almost entirely eliminated if manufacturer's would
> include
> > a
> > > small gasoline heater to heat the batteries and the passengers.
> > >
> > > By my calculations, which I have previously posted in emails to SEVA
> and
> > > EVDL, most people could drive 12,000 miles per year and only consume
> 2-3
> > > gallons of gasoline per year, while eliminating the cold weather
> problems
> > > of
> > > EVs. Even in a climate like Michigan, 5-6 gallons of gasoline could
> > make
> > > the EV function as if it were in San Diego (except for increased
> rolling
> > > resistance if there is snow on the road).
> > >
> > > This seems like a tiny price to pay to eliminate one of the biggest
> > > barriers
> > > to the adoption of EVs. I hope that the manufacturers will listen to
> > this.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Larry Gales
> > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > URL:
> > >
> >
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> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > * **
> > *
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> >
>
>
>
> --
> Larry Gales
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Martin WINLOW wrote:
> fuel heaters are a bit of a last resort... we could (should) be
> using warmed seats etc... combined with some *insulation*... still
> going to need de-frosting... mains powered pre-heating prior to
> driving.
>
> Gone are the days of (virtually) unlimited waste heat from the ICE.
> The lack of one needs a complete overhaul of the whole concept...
> cooling too! And really - no battery heating? Bonkers.

You have it exactly right, Martin.

The whole concept of heating/cooling a car changes when you no longer
have unlimited "free" waste heat from the ICE. We can't build EVs with
the same old uninsulated metal boxes, single-pane windows, and
continuous flow-through ventilation. It's a hideous waste of energy! We
haven't built houses that way for 50+ years -- why should our cars still
be doing it?

Not heating/cooling the batteries is a big mistake. The big automakers
don't seem to learn from history; they KEEP making the same mistakes!
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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On 6 Mar 2011 at 10:51, Lee Hart wrote:

> It would work better yet if you use some material that has a phase
> change.... there are some waxes that work well for this. Heat them to
> 160 deg.F or so they melt. Put them in the car, and they give off that
> heat as they freeze back into a solid.

Jim Tervort once suggested coconut oil for keeping batteries warm. Its
melting point is 24 deg C (76 deg F), and that increases to around 36 deg C
if the oil is hydrogenated.

People and batteries tend to like similar temperatures.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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