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Discussion Starter #1
The April 2011 Consumer Reports review of the Leaf came out much better
than the Volt. But the Consumer report supports something that I have
emphasized for a while: that cold weather is a major limitation of pure EVs
which could be almost entirely eliminated if manufacturer's would include a
small gasoline heater to heat the batteries and the passengers.

By my calculations, which I have previously posted in emails to SEVA and
EVDL, most people could drive 12,000 miles per year and only consume 2-3
gallons of gasoline per year, while eliminating the cold weather problems of
EVs. Even in a climate like Michigan, 5-6 gallons of gasoline could make
the EV function as if it were in San Diego (except for increased rolling
resistance if there is snow on the road).

This seems like a tiny price to pay to eliminate one of the biggest barriers
to the adoption of EVs. I hope that the manufacturers will listen to this.

--
Larry Gales
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Discussion Starter #2
When you reduce gasoline consumption from 400 gallons a year (for an ICE
engine at 30 mpg for 12,000 miles) to *2* galllons per year, you have
reduced your gas consumption to 1/2 of 1% of an ICE. I would say that that
will get you away from gasoline.

-- Larry


Bob Bath <[email protected]> wrote:

> I still don't see it. Most Leaf customers are purchasing to get _away_
> from gasoline; even for cabin heating. And apparently Nissan went with
> steering wheel heating, cabin ventilation, from what I've heard.
>
> Thinking about converting a gen. 5 ('92-95) Honda Civic? See
> http://home.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html for DVD and tons more
> info!
> ____
> __/__|__\__
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
> wheel?
> OR Lic. "LCTRNS"
>
>
> --- On Sat, 3/5/11, Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > From: Larry Gales <[email protected]>
> > Subject: [EVDL] Consumer reports on the Volt vs the Leaf
> > To: "SEVA" <[email protected]>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <
> [email protected]>
> > Date: Saturday, March 5, 2011, 2:30 PM
> > The April 2011 Consumer Reports
> > review of the Leaf came out much better
> > than the Volt. But the Consumer report supports
> > something that I have
> > emphasized for a while: that cold weather is a major
> > limitation of pure EVs
> > which could be almost entirely eliminated if manufacturer's
> > would include a
> > small gasoline heater to heat the batteries and the
> > passengers.
> >
> > By my calculations, which I have previously posted in
> > emails to SEVA and
> > EVDL, most people could drive 12,000 miles per year and
> > only consume 2-3
> > gallons of gasoline per year, while eliminating the cold
> > weather problems of
> > EVs. Even in a climate like Michigan, 5-6
> > gallons of gasoline could make
> > the EV function as if it were in San Diego (except for
> > increased rolling
> > resistance if there is snow on the road).
> >
> > This seems like a tiny price to pay to eliminate one of the
> > biggest barriers
> > to the adoption of EVs. I hope that the manufacturers
> > will listen to this.
> >
> > --
> > Larry Gales
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20110305/92d922e7/attachment.html
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected]
> > only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>



--
Larry Gales
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Discussion Starter #3
This all true, but imagine the press if the Leaf is not 100% emmission free!
That's Nissan's distinction, for the time being. A few years from now
people will ask for it. Then it will happen.

Peri Hartman

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Larry Gales
Sent: 05 March, 2011 3:30 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Consumer reports on the Volt vs the Leaf

When you reduce gasoline consumption from 400 gallons a year (for an ICE
engine at 30 mpg for 12,000 miles) to *2* galllons per year, you have
reduced your gas consumption to 1/2 of 1% of an ICE. I would say that that
will get you away from gasoline.

-- Larry


Bob Bath <[email protected]> wrote:

> I still don't see it. Most Leaf customers are purchasing to get
> _away_ from gasoline; even for cabin heating. And apparently Nissan
> went with steering wheel heating, cabin ventilation, from what I've heard.
>
> Thinking about converting a gen. 5 ('92-95) Honda Civic? See
> http://home.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html for DVD and tons
> more info!
> ____
> __/__|__\__
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the
> steering wheel?
> OR Lic. "LCTRNS"
>
>
> --- On Sat, 3/5/11, Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > From: Larry Gales <[email protected]>
> > Subject: [EVDL] Consumer reports on the Volt vs the Leaf
> > To: "SEVA" <[email protected]>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
> > <
> [email protected]>
> > Date: Saturday, March 5, 2011, 2:30 PM The April 2011 Consumer
> > Reports review of the Leaf came out much better than the Volt. But
> > the Consumer report supports something that I have emphasized for a
> > while: that cold weather is a major limitation of pure EVs which
> > could be almost entirely eliminated if manufacturer's would include
> > a small gasoline heater to heat the batteries and the passengers.
> >
> > By my calculations, which I have previously posted in emails to SEVA
> > and EVDL, most people could drive 12,000 miles per year and only
> > consume 2-3 gallons of gasoline per year, while eliminating the cold
> > weather problems of EVs. Even in a climate like Michigan, 5-6
> > gallons of gasoline could make the EV function as if it were in San
> > Diego (except for increased rolling resistance if there is snow on
> > the road).
> >
> > This seems like a tiny price to pay to eliminate one of the biggest
> > barriers to the adoption of EVs. I hope that the manufacturers will
> > listen to this.
> >
> > --
> > Larry Gales
> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
> > scrubbed...
> > URL:
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20110305/92d922e7
> /attachment.html
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected]
> > only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
Larry Gales
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Discussion Starter #4
Larry, intuitively your 2 gal/ year estimate seams out of whack. Do you want to show us your calcs?

What are your assumptions besides 12,000 miles? What climate? How many miles driven with heat? What BTU/hr heater output? What heater efficiency? What average speed?


Sent from my iPad

Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:

> When you reduce gasoline consumption from 400 gallons a year (for an ICE
> engine at 30 mpg for 12,000 miles) to *2* galllons per year, you have
> reduced your gas consumption to 1/2 of 1% of an ICE. I would say that that
> will get you away from gasoline.
>
> -- Larry
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Bob Bath <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I still don't see it. Most Leaf customers are purchasing to get _away_
>> from gasoline; even for cabin heating. And apparently Nissan went with
>> steering wheel heating, cabin ventilation, from what I've heard.
>>
>> Thinking about converting a gen. 5 ('92-95) Honda Civic? See
>> http://home.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html for DVD and tons mo
>> info!
>> ____
>> __/__|__\__
>> =D-------/ - - \
>> 'O'-----'O'-'
>> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
>> wheel?
>> OR Lic. "LCTRNS"
>>
>>
>> --- On Sat, 3/5/11, Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> From: Larry Gales <[email protected]>
>>> Subject: [EVDL] Consumer reports on the Volt vs the Leaf
>>> To: "SEVA" <[email protected]>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <
>> [email protected]>
>>> Date: Saturday, March 5, 2011, 2:30 PM
>>> The April 2011 Consumer Reports
>>> review of the Leaf came out much better
>>> than the Volt. But the Consumer report supports
>>> something that I have
>>> emphasized for a while: that cold weather is a major
>>> limitation of pure EVs
>>> which could be almost entirely eliminated if manufacturer's
>>> would include a
>>> small gasoline heater to heat the batteries and the
>>> passengers.
>>>
>>> By my calculations, which I have previously posted in
>>> emails to SEVA and
>>> EVDL, most people could drive 12,000 miles per year and
>>> only consume 2-3
>>> gallons of gasoline per year, while eliminating the cold
>>> weather problems of
>>> EVs. Even in a climate like Michigan, 5-6
>>> gallons of gasoline could make
>>> the EV function as if it were in San Diego (except for
>>> increased rolling
>>> resistance if there is snow on the road).
>>>
>>> This seems like a tiny price to pay to eliminate one of the
>>> biggest barriers
>>> to the adoption of EVs. I hope that the manufacturers
>>> will listen to this.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Larry Gales
>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> URL:
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20110305/92d922e7/attachment.html
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected]
>>> only.
>>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Larry Gales
> -------------- next part --------------
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> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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_______________________________________________
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Discussion Starter #5
Here are the calculations I used in a posting to SEVA / EVDL a few months
ago ( note that the calculations were for a severe climate such as Michigan,
and we needed 5.8 gallons/year of gas. In most of the rest of the country
we would need much less, hence the estimate of 2-3 gallons/year. One
mistake I made below is assuming that gasoline heaters are 100% efficient
at producing heat, whereas 88% seems more reasonable, but that does not
change the picture much):

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cold weather takes a huge toll on the range of EVs. It appears to cut the
range of the
Mitsubishi iMiev almost in half, and cut the range of the Nissan Leaf by
20-40%. It is a very
large problem in search of a solution.

You can compute the BTUs needed to heat a room at this website:

http://www.hearth.com/calc/btucalc.html

I selected a cold climate (Michigan), poor insulation, and a volume of 12'
by 5' by 8' (it
assumes all ceilings are 8' tall). It computed that you need from 1200 to
2400 BTU/HR to heat
that room. Now the Leaf is built on the Nissan Versa platform, and that
appears to have an
interior volume of roughly 150 cubic feet, as per this URL:

http://www.nissanusa.com/versa/specifications-hatchback.html

Now 12 x 5 x 8 = 480 cu. ft, which is 3.2 times the volume of the
Versa/Leaf. However, the Leaf
will typically be traveling at 30 MPH which will suck extra heat out of the
car compared with a
room. Still, with only 1/3 the volume, you would think 2400 BTUs would be
enough. But to be on
the extra save side I assumed you need 5000 BTUs/HR, or about 1.5 KW.

Now one gallon of gasoline contains 115,000 BTUs:

http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/energy_conv.html

While gasoline is very inefficient at running motors, it is 100% efficient
at generating heat, so
5000 BTUs should last (115000/5000) = 23 hours. If we assume that the Leaf
averages 30 MPH, then
we get 23*30 = 690 miles/gallon. Since we don't use heat during the Summer,
and even during the
Winter we don't always use maximum heat, we can assume that we average about
1/3 the heat
capacity of the gasoline heater. That translates to 3*690 = 2070
miles/gallon. If we drive
12,000 miles/yr, that translates to 5.8 gallons/year.

Now 5.8 gallons/year is but 1-2% of the gasoline needed to run an ICE car
for a year. It seems a
VERY small price to pay for eliminating one of the biggest barriers to the
use of EVs. Yet,
Nissan, Mitsubishi, THINK, and other production EVs lack such a heater.

So am I missing something here, or are my calculations way off?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]>wrote:

> Larry, intuitively your 2 gal/ year estimate seams out of whack. Do you
> want to show us your calcs?
>
> What are your assumptions besides 12,000 miles? What climate? How many
> miles driven with heat? What BTU/hr heater output? What heater efficiency?
> What average speed?
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 5, 2011, at 6:30 PM, Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > When you reduce gasoline consumption from 400 gallons a year (for an ICE
> > engine at 30 mpg for 12,000 miles) to *2* galllons per year, you have
> > reduced your gas consumption to 1/2 of 1% of an ICE. I would say that
> that
> > will get you away from gasoline.
> >
> > -- Larry
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Bob Bath <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> >> I still don't see it. Most Leaf customers are purchasing to get _away_
> >> from gasoline; even for cabin heating. And apparently Nissan went with
> >> steering wheel heating, cabin ventilation, from what I've heard.
> >>
> >> Thinking about converting a gen. 5 ('92-95) Honda Civic? See
> >> http://home.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html for DVD and tons mo
> >> info!
> >> ____
> >> __/__|__\__
> >> =D-------/ - - \
> >> 'O'-----'O'-'
> >> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
> >> wheel?
> >> OR Lic. "LCTRNS"
> >>
> >>
> >> --- On Sat, 3/5/11, Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> From: Larry Gales <[email protected]>
> >>> Subject: [EVDL] Consumer reports on the Volt vs the Leaf
> >>> To: "SEVA" <[email protected]>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <
> >> [email protected]>
> >>> Date: Saturday, March 5, 2011, 2:30 PM
> >>> The April 2011 Consumer Reports
> >>> review of the Leaf came out much better
> >>> than the Volt. But the Consumer report supports
> >>> something that I have
> >>> emphasized for a while: that cold weather is a major
> >>> limitation of pure EVs
> >>> which could be almost entirely eliminated if manufacturer's
> >>> would include a
> >>> small gasoline heater to heat the batteries and the
> >>> passengers.
> >>>
> >>> By my calculations, which I have previously posted in
> >>> emails to SEVA and
> >>> EVDL, most people could drive 12,000 miles per year and
> >>> only consume 2-3
> >>> gallons of gasoline per year, while eliminating the cold
> >>> weather problems of
> >>> EVs. Even in a climate like Michigan, 5-6
> >>> gallons of gasoline could make
> >>> the EV function as if it were in San Diego (except for
> >>> increased rolling
> >>> resistance if there is snow on the road).
> >>>
> >>> This seems like a tiny price to pay to eliminate one of the
> >>> biggest barriers
> >>> to the adoption of EVs. I hope that the manufacturers
> >>> will listen to this.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Larry Gales
> >>> -------------- next part --------------
> >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >>> URL:
> >>
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20110305/92d922e7/attachment.html
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected]
> >>> only.
> >>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> >>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> >>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> >> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> >> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> >> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Larry Gales
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
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> > _______________________________________________
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> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>



--
Larry Gales
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Joined
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Personally, I would avoid any EV that required the use of gasoline.
The whole notion of having an EV, and then burning a hydrocarbon, is
disappointing, if nothing else.

DAC

Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:
> Here are the calculations I used in a posting to SEVA / EVDL a few months
> ago ( note that the calculations were for a severe climate such as Michig=
an,
> and we needed 5.8 gallons/year of gas. In most of the rest of the coun=
try
> we would need much less, hence the estimate of 2-3 gallons/year. One
> mistake I made below is assuming that gasoline heaters are 100% effici=
ent
> at producing heat, whereas 88% seems more reasonable, but that does not
> change the picture much):
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------------------
> Cold weather takes a huge toll on the range of EVs. It appears to cut =
the
> range of the
> Mitsubishi iMiev almost in half, and cut the range of the Nissan Leaf by
> 20-40%. It is a very
> large problem in search of a solution.
>
> You can compute the BTUs needed to heat a room at this website:
>
> http://www.hearth.com/calc/btucalc.html
>
> I selected a cold climate (Michigan), poor insulation, and a volume of 12'
> by 5' by 8' (it
> assumes all ceilings are 8' tall). It computed that you need from 1200=
to
> 2400 BTU/HR to heat
> that room. Now the Leaf is built on the Nissan Versa platform, and that
> appears to have an
> interior volume of roughly 150 cubic feet, as per this URL:
>
> http://www.nissanusa.com/versa/specifications-hatchback.ht=
ml
>
> Now 12 x 5 x 8 =3D 480 cu. ft, which is 3.2 times the volume of the
> Versa/Leaf. However, the Leaf
> will typically be traveling at 30 MPH which will suck extra heat out of t=
he
> car compared with a
> room. Still, with only 1/3 the volume, you would think 2400 BTUs would be
> enough. But to be on
> the extra save side I assumed you need 5000 BTUs/HR, or about 1.5 KW.
>
> Now one gallon of gasoline contains 115,000 BTUs:
>
> http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/energy_conv.html
>
> While gasoline is very inefficient at running motors, it is 100% efficient
> at generating heat, so
> 5000 BTUs should last (115000/5000) =3D 23 hours. If we assume that th=
e Leaf
> averages 30 MPH, then
> we get 23*30 =3D 690 miles/gallon. Since we don't use heat during the =
Summer,
> and even during the
> Winter we don't always use maximum heat, we can assume that we average ab=
out
> 1/3 the heat
> capacity of the gasoline heater. That translates to 3*690 =3D 2070
> miles/gallon. If we drive
> 12,000 miles/yr, that translates to 5.8 gallons/year.
>
> Now 5.8 gallons/year is but 1-2% of the gasoline needed to run an ICE car
> for a year. It seems a
> VERY small price to pay for eliminating one of the biggest barriers to the
> use of EVs. Yet,
> Nissan, Mitsubishi, THINK, and other production EVs lack such a heater.
>
> So am I missing something here, or are my calculations way off?
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 4:29 PM, Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]>=
wrote:
>
>> Larry, intuitively your 2 gal/ year estimate seams out of whack. Do y=
ou
>> want to show us your calcs?
>>
>> What are your assumptions besides 12,000 miles? What climate? How =
many
>> miles driven with heat? What BTU/hr heater output? What heater eff=
iciency?
>> What average speed?
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Mar 5, 2011, at 6:30 PM, Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > When you reduce gasoline consumption from 400 gallons a year (for an I=
CE
>> > engine at 30 mpg for 12,000 miles) to *2* galllons per year, you have
>> > reduced your gas consumption to 1/2 of 1% of an ICE. I would say th=
at
>> that
>> > will get you away from gasoline.
>> >
>> > -- Larry
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Bob Bath <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I still don't see it. Most Leaf customers are purchasing to get _a=
way_
>> >> from gasoline; even for cabin heating. And apparently Nissan went =
with
>> >> steering wheel heating, cabin ventilation, from what I've heard.
>> >>
>> >> Thinking about converting a gen. 5 ('92-95) Honda Civic? See
>> >> http://home.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html for DVD and tons mo
>> >> info!
>> >> ____
>> >> __/__|__\__
>> >> =3DD-------/ - - \
>> >> 'O'-----'O'-'
>> >> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steeri=
ng
>> >> wheel?
>> >> OR Lic. "LCTRNS"
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --- On Sat, 3/5/11, Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> From: Larry Gales <[email protected]>
>> >>> Subject: [EVDL] Consumer reports on the Volt vs the Leaf
>> >>> To: "SEVA" <[email protected]>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"=
<
>> >> [email protected]>
>> >>> Date: Saturday, March 5, 2011, 2:30 PM
>> >>> The April 2011 Consumer Reports
>> >>> review of the Leaf came out much better
>> >>> than the Volt. But the Consumer report supports
>> >>> something that I have
>> >>> emphasized for a while: that cold weather is a major
>> >>> limitation of pure EVs
>> >>> which could be almost entirely eliminated if manufacturer's
>> >>> would include a
>> >>> small gasoline heater to heat the batteries and the
>> >>> passengers.
>> >>>
>> >>> By my calculations, which I have previously posted in
>> >>> emails to SEVA and
>> >>> EVDL, most people could drive 12,000 miles per year and
>> >>> only consume 2-3
>> >>> gallons of gasoline per year, while eliminating the cold
>> >>> weather problems of
>> >>> EVs. Even in a climate like Michigan, 5-6
>> >>> gallons of gasoline could make
>> >>> the EV function as if it were in San Diego (except for
>> >>> increased rolling
>> >>> resistance if there is snow on the road).
>> >>>
>> >>> This seems like a tiny price to pay to eliminate one of the
>> >>> biggest barriers
>> >>> to the adoption of EVs. I hope that the manufacturers
>> >>> will listen to this.
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Larry Gales
>> >>> -------------- next part --------------
>> >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> >>> URL:
>> >>
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20110305/92d922e7/a=
ttachment.html
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected]
>> >>> only.
>> >>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> >>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> >>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
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>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Larry Gales
>> > -------------- next part --------------
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>>
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>
>
>
> --
> Larry Gales
> -------------- next part --------------
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-- =

http://www.evalbum.com/2149

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Discussion Starter #7
The Leaf does allow you to preheat the car using the house current (this is
well advertised and you can do it from your smart phone) . However, all the
reports I see about cold weather are that it dramatically reduces the range,
so pre-heating, while useful, does not appear to be a sufficient solution.

-- Larry

Bill Dube <[email protected]> wrote:

> On particularly cold days, I turn on the heater while still plugged
> in. This pre-heats the cabin and results in significantly less draw
> on the battery during my commute, since I can run the heater at a
> much lower level once the cabin is up to temperature.
>
> I don't know if the Leaf allows you to turn on the heater while on
> charge or not. If it does, then this is the obvious solution. If it
> doesn't, there is no doubt that someone will figure out a "hack" that
> will allow you to do it, because it makes so much sense.
>
> Bill D.
>
> At 03:30 PM 3/5/2011, you wrote:
> >The April 2011 Consumer Reports review of the Leaf came out much better
> >than the Volt. But the Consumer report supports something that I have
> >emphasized for a while: that cold weather is a major limitation of pure
> EVs
> >which could be almost entirely eliminated if manufacturer's would include
> a
> >small gasoline heater to heat the batteries and the passengers.
> >
> >By my calculations, which I have previously posted in emails to SEVA and
> >EVDL, most people could drive 12,000 miles per year and only consume 2-3
> >gallons of gasoline per year, while eliminating the cold weather problems
> of
> >EVs. Even in a climate like Michigan, 5-6 gallons of gasoline could make
> >the EV function as if it were in San Diego (except for increased rolling
> >resistance if there is snow on the road).
> >
> >This seems like a tiny price to pay to eliminate one of the biggest
> barriers
> >to the adoption of EVs. I hope that the manufacturers will listen to
> this.
> >
> >--
> >Larry Gales
> >-------------- next part --------------
> >An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >URL:
> >
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20110305/92d922e7/attachment.html
> >
> >_______________________________________________
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> >| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>
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--
Larry Gales
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Discussion Starter #8
Personally I like the solution Roland Weinch has mentioned a couple of times
- insulate the batteries really well to keep them at a more consistent temp.

Peter Flipsen Jr
"Bill Dube" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> On particularly cold days, I turn on the heater while still plugged
> in. This pre-heats the cabin and results in significantly less draw
> on the battery during my commute, since I can run the heater at a
> much lower level once the cabin is up to temperature.
>
> I don't know if the Leaf allows you to turn on the heater while on
> charge or not. If it does, then this is the obvious solution. If it
> doesn't, there is no doubt that someone will figure out a "hack" that
> will allow you to do it, because it makes so much sense.
>
> Bill D.
>
> At 03:30 PM 3/5/2011, you wrote:
> >The April 2011 Consumer Reports review of the Leaf came out much better
> >than the Volt. But the Consumer report supports something that I have
> >emphasized for a while: that cold weather is a major limitation of pure
EVs
> >which could be almost entirely eliminated if manufacturer's would include
a
> >small gasoline heater to heat the batteries and the passengers.
> >
> >By my calculations, which I have previously posted in emails to SEVA and
> >EVDL, most people could drive 12,000 miles per year and only consume 2-3
> >gallons of gasoline per year, while eliminating the cold weather problems
of
> >EVs. Even in a climate like Michigan, 5-6 gallons of gasoline could
make
> >the EV function as if it were in San Diego (except for increased rolling
> >resistance if there is snow on the road).
> >
> >This seems like a tiny price to pay to eliminate one of the biggest
barriers
> >to the adoption of EVs. I hope that the manufacturers will listen to
this.
> >
> >--
> >Larry Gales
> >-------------- next part --------------
> >An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >URL:
> >
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> >
> >_______________________________________________
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>
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Discussion Starter #9
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Discussion Starter #10
One of the more humorous EV episodes in my life was when we took a Mars II
into a gas station in Detroit and asked the attendant to fill it up and
check the batteries. He was quite surprised when I popped the hood and he
saw the one gallon tank for the VW gasoline heater and some of the 20 tri
polar lead batteries.






> The Leaf does allow you to preheat the car using the house current (this
> is
> well advertised and you can do it from your smart phone) . However, all
> the
> reports I see about cold weather are that it dramatically reduces the
> range,
> so pre-heating, while useful, does not appear to be a sufficient solution.
>
> -- Larry
>
>
Bill Dube <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On particularly cold days, I turn on the heater while still plugged
>> in. This pre-heats the cabin and results in significantly less draw
>> on the battery during my commute, since I can run the heater at a
>> much lower level once the cabin is up to temperature.
>>
>> I don't know if the Leaf allows you to turn on the heater while on
>> charge or not. If it does, then this is the obvious solution. If it
>> doesn't, there is no doubt that someone will figure out a "hack" that
>> will allow you to do it, because it makes so much sense.
>>
>> Bill D.
>>
>> At 03:30 PM 3/5/2011, you wrote:
>> >The April 2011 Consumer Reports review of the Leaf came out much
>> better
>> >than the Volt. But the Consumer report supports something that I have
>> >emphasized for a while: that cold weather is a major limitation of
>> pure
>> EVs
>> >which could be almost entirely eliminated if manufacturer's would
>> include
>> a
>> >small gasoline heater to heat the batteries and the passengers.
>> >
>> >By my calculations, which I have previously posted in emails to SEVA
>> and
>> >EVDL, most people could drive 12,000 miles per year and only consume
>> 2-3
>> >gallons of gasoline per year, while eliminating the cold weather
>> problems
>> of
>> >EVs. Even in a climate like Michigan, 5-6 gallons of gasoline could
>> make
>> >the EV function as if it were in San Diego (except for increased
>> rolling
>> >resistance if there is snow on the road).
>> >
>> >This seems like a tiny price to pay to eliminate one of the biggest
>> barriers
>> >to the adoption of EVs. I hope that the manufacturers will listen to
>> this.
>> >
>> >--
>> >Larry Gales
>> >-------------- next part --------------
>> >An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> >URL:
>> >
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20110305/92d922e7/attachment.html
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
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>>
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Larry Gales
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Discussion Starter #11
Larry and others. I can see the heat problem and one solution is a fueled
heater, but I would suggest using those one pound bottles of camp fuel,
(Butane)not gasoline. Butane is not imported, and when burned it produces no
Carbon-monoxide so it is safer also. The RV people have been using butane
for cooking, and space heating, and hot water heaters for many years.
*Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles .COM
[email protected] <[email protected]>
Phone: 1 (863) 944 - 9913
=====================================================
*
Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:

> The April 2011 Consumer Reports review of the Leaf came out much better
> than the Volt. But the Consumer report supports something that I have
> emphasized for a while: that cold weather is a major limitation of pure
> EVs
> which could be almost entirely eliminated if manufacturer's would include a
> small gasoline heater to heat the batteries and the passengers.
>
> By my calculations, which I have previously posted in emails to SEVA and
> EVDL, most people could drive 12,000 miles per year and only consume 2-3
> gallons of gasoline per year, while eliminating the cold weather problems
> of
> EVs. Even in a climate like Michigan, 5-6 gallons of gasoline could make
> the EV function as if it were in San Diego (except for increased rolling
> resistance if there is snow on the road).
>
> This seems like a tiny price to pay to eliminate one of the biggest
> barriers
> to the adoption of EVs. I hope that the manufacturers will listen to this.
>
> --
> Larry Gales
> -------------- next part --------------
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>



--
* **
*
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Discussion Starter #12
Actually, as Nissan's own tests show, the worst situation for range is when
you drive VERY SLOWLY with the heat on. In one of Nissan's tests slow
driving wih the heat on limited it to 47 miles. For example, if you are
traveling 70 mph, you could not have the heat on for much more than an
hour, whereas if you are slowed to 15 MPH then you would use heat for 4
hours and so much of your rnge goes into heating, not driving.

-- Larry

Bill Dube <[email protected]> wrote:

> If you pre-heat the car while plugged in, it will make a _huge_
> difference in the cold weather range. This is a fact. I doubt that
> the reviewers actually did this for the road test. They would never
> think of it because they have never commuted in an EV. They are used
> to cabin heat that comes as a by-product from the gross inefficiency
> of the ICE.
>
> Also, who commutes that far that they would need the full range? That
> would be just crazy. Buy a Volt instead.
>
> I also should note that on nasty winter days, all the traffic slows
> down. Thus, you use less energy per mile leaving a bit extra energy
> for heat. You don't come out even, but the heater range hit is not
> quite as bad as it would be if you drove at the full speed limit,
> like you would do on nice sunny days. Once you commute in an EV,
> these sorts of differences become obvious.
>
> Bill D.
>
> At 09:44 PM 3/5/2011, you wrote:
> >The Leaf does allow you to preheat the car using the house current
> >(this is well advertised and you can do it from your smart phone)
> >. However, all the reports I see about cold weather are that it
> >dramatically reduces the range, so pre-heating, while useful, does
> >not appear to be a sufficient solution.
> >
> >-- Larry
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
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Larry Gales
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Discussion Starter #13
Yes, I think that is an excellent solution and is cleaner than gasoline.

-- Larry

Dennis Miles <[email protected]> wrote:

> Larry and others. I can see the heat problem and one solution is a
> fueled
> heater, but I would suggest using those one pound bottles of camp fuel,
> (Butane)not gasoline. Butane is not imported, and when burned it produces
> no
> Carbon-monoxide so it is safer also. The RV people have been using butane
> for cooking, and space heating, and hot water heaters for many years.
> *Regards,
> Dennis Lee Miles .COM
> [email protected] <[email protected]>
> Phone: 1 (863) 944 - 9913
> =====================================================
> *
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 5:30 PM, Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > The April 2011 Consumer Reports review of the Leaf came out much better
> > than the Volt. But the Consumer report supports something that I have
> > emphasized for a while: that cold weather is a major limitation of pure
> > EVs
> > which could be almost entirely eliminated if manufacturer's would include
> a
> > small gasoline heater to heat the batteries and the passengers.
> >
> > By my calculations, which I have previously posted in emails to SEVA and
> > EVDL, most people could drive 12,000 miles per year and only consume 2-3
> > gallons of gasoline per year, while eliminating the cold weather problems
> > of
> > EVs. Even in a climate like Michigan, 5-6 gallons of gasoline could
> make
> > the EV function as if it were in San Diego (except for increased rolling
> > resistance if there is snow on the road).
> >
> > This seems like a tiny price to pay to eliminate one of the biggest
> > barriers
> > to the adoption of EVs. I hope that the manufacturers will listen to
> this.
> >
> > --
> > Larry Gales
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> >
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> >
>
>
>
> --
> * **
> *
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Discussion Starter #14
If I can find some ceramic bricks from an off peak electricity heater, I
want to try heating them indoors then putting them in the cabin for fan
forced heat.
Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:

> Yes, I think that is an excellent solution and is cleaner than gasoline.
>
> -- Larry
>
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 10:30 PM, Dennis Miles <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > Larry and others. I can see the heat problem and one solution is a
> > fueled
> > heater, but I would suggest using those one pound bottles of camp fuel,
> > (Butane)not gasoline. Butane is not imported, and when burned it produces
> > no
> > Carbon-monoxide so it is safer also. The RV people have been using butane
> > for cooking, and space heating, and hot water heaters for many years.
> > *Regards,
> > Dennis Lee Miles .COM
> > [email protected] <[email protected]>
> > Phone: 1 (863) 944 - 9913
> > =====================================================
> > *
> > On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 5:30 PM, Larry Gales <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > The April 2011 Consumer Reports review of the Leaf came out much
> better
> > > than the Volt. But the Consumer report supports something that I have
> > > emphasized for a while: that cold weather is a major limitation of
> pure
> > > EVs
> > > which could be almost entirely eliminated if manufacturer's would
> include
> > a
> > > small gasoline heater to heat the batteries and the passengers.
> > >
> > > By my calculations, which I have previously posted in emails to SEVA
> and
> > > EVDL, most people could drive 12,000 miles per year and only consume
> 2-3
> > > gallons of gasoline per year, while eliminating the cold weather
> problems
> > > of
> > > EVs. Even in a climate like Michigan, 5-6 gallons of gasoline could
> > make
> > > the EV function as if it were in San Diego (except for increased
> rolling
> > > resistance if there is snow on the road).
> > >
> > > This seems like a tiny price to pay to eliminate one of the biggest
> > > barriers
> > > to the adoption of EVs. I hope that the manufacturers will listen to
> > this.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Larry Gales
> > > -------------- next part --------------
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > * **
> > *
> > -------------- next part --------------
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>
>
>
> --
> Larry Gales
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Discussion Starter #15
IMO, fuel heaters are a bit of a last resort - but in seriously
inclement parts, they may be the only answer. For the rest of us I
think we could (should) be using warmed seats etc as they are a
factor of 10 more efficient than heating the whole cabin and mains
powered pre-heat with an on-board hot air fan or water heater via a
conventional heater matrix (which could also be used with the traction
pack if required) combined with some *insulation*. But don't forget
the defrost action the conventional set up provides. Without as yet
very exy heated windscreens you are still going to need de-frosting -
of course this need would be largely negated with mains powered pre-
heating prior to driving.

Gone are the days of (virtually) unlimited waste heat from the ICE.
The lack of one needs a complete overhaul of the whole concept... and
don't forget cooling too!

And really - no battery heating? Bonkers.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk

Larry Gales wrote:

> The April 2011 Consumer Reports review of the Leaf came out much
> better
> than the Volt. But the Consumer report supports something that I have
> emphasized for a while: that cold weather is a major limitation of
> pure EVs
> which could be almost entirely eliminated if manufacturer's would
> include a
> small gasoline heater to heat the batteries and the passengers.
>
> By my calculations, which I have previously posted in emails to SEVA
> and
> EVDL, most people could drive 12,000 miles per year and only consume
> 2-3
> gallons of gasoline per year, while eliminating the cold weather
> problems of
> EVs. Even in a climate like Michigan, 5-6 gallons of gasoline
> could make
> the EV function as if it were in San Diego (except for increased
> rolling
> resistance if there is snow on the road).
>
> This seems like a tiny price to pay to eliminate one of the biggest
> barriers
> to the adoption of EVs. I hope that the manufacturers will listen
> to this.
>
> --
> Larry Gales
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20110305/92d922e7/attachment.html
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
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Discussion Starter #16
The defroster in my Citicar doesn't out out an appreciable amount of heat, so I
use sodium acetate hand warmers to keep me warm while driving. These warmers
are non toxic (should they leak somehow...) and are reset by heating in boiling
water for a few minutes. I use them as mini hot water bottles while they're
cooling off after being reset.

They can be stored at room temp, and give off about 140f for a couple of hours
when activated. They come in various sizes, and can be reset indefinitely - at
least until the plastic bag they're in wears out!

Tom Keenan

----- Original Message ----

From: Lee Hart <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Sun, March 6, 2011 8:51:32 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Consumer reports on the Volt vs the Leaf


It would work better yet if you use some material that has a phase
change. Materials give off a tremendous amount of heat when they change
from gas to liquid, or liquid to solid. Again, water is about the best
there is -- but it's impractical to have a container of steam that you
move to your car, and let condense back into to water to heat it). But,
there are some waxes that work well for this. Heat them to 160 deg.F or
so they melt. Put them in the car, and they give off that heat as they
freeze back into a solid.

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Discussion Starter #17
Martin WINLOW wrote:
> fuel heaters are a bit of a last resort... we could (should) be
> using warmed seats etc... combined with some *insulation*... still
> going to need de-frosting... mains powered pre-heating prior to
> driving.
>
> Gone are the days of (virtually) unlimited waste heat from the ICE.
> The lack of one needs a complete overhaul of the whole concept...
> cooling too! And really - no battery heating? Bonkers.

You have it exactly right, Martin.

The whole concept of heating/cooling a car changes when you no longer
have unlimited "free" waste heat from the ICE. We can't build EVs with
the same old uninsulated metal boxes, single-pane windows, and
continuous flow-through ventilation. It's a hideous waste of energy! We
haven't built houses that way for 50+ years -- why should our cars still
be doing it?

Not heating/cooling the batteries is a big mistake. The big automakers
don't seem to learn from history; they KEEP making the same mistakes!
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Discussion Starter #18
On 6 Mar 2011 at 10:51, Lee Hart wrote:

> It would work better yet if you use some material that has a phase
> change.... there are some waxes that work well for this. Heat them to
> 160 deg.F or so they melt. Put them in the car, and they give off that
> heat as they freeze back into a solid.

Jim Tervort once suggested coconut oil for keeping batteries warm. Its
melting point is 24 deg C (76 deg F), and that increases to around 36 deg C
if the oil is hydrogenated.

People and batteries tend to like similar temperatures.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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Discussion Starter #19
> Jim Tervort once suggested coconut oil for keeping batteries warm.
> Its melting point is 24 deg C (76 deg F), and that increases to
> around 36 deg C if the oil is hydrogenated.

That is one of the few beneficial uses of hydrogenated oil.



Think more
Talk less
Become wise

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