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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Interesting .. Of all the discussion I have seen here about how cheaper
controller were not possible .. Then some body says hey look here .. They
are selling these for about half the price and they come with a year
guarantee.. No body wants to talk about that? Interesting..

Any way I would love to have the web site address to this site.. I guess
they sell a lot of them to China..
T
Thanks Mitchell

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
I believe it was: www.kellycontroller.com

They emailed me, warning me not to go past 100vdc
nominal on the highest rated unit they have. I'll
have to keep my 72vdc Alltrax, until I win the lottery
or something of that nature. I want to go to at least
120vdc, and Kelly Controllers doesn't have one yet,
and ALLTRAX keeps telling me, SOON, real soon on the
higher rated version they are going to release. I
like ALLTRAX, mainly for the serial output to a PC,
and the ability to watch it's parameters on a laptop
in the car.



--- Mitch or Terric <[email protected]> wrote:

> Interesting .. Of all the discussion I have seen
> here about how cheaper
> controller were not possible .. Then some body says
> hey look here .. They
> are selling these for about half the price and they
> come with a year
> guarantee.. No body wants to talk about that?
> Interesting..
>
> Any way I would love to have the web site address to
> this site.. I guess
> they sell a lot of them to China..
> T
> Thanks Mitchell
>


M. Barkley

www.texomaev.com

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1135

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Micheal,

That communication with ALLTRAX wouldn't have included any mention
of SepEx at the higher voltages would it have? :)

If so, I would like to add my name to the list of interested
parties.

Chet

--- Michael Barkley <[email protected]> wrote:

> I believe it was: www.kellycontroller.com
>
> They emailed me, warning me not to go past 100vdc
> nominal on the highest rated unit they have. I'll
> have to keep my 72vdc Alltrax, until I win the lottery
> or something of that nature. I want to go to at least
> 120vdc, and Kelly Controllers doesn't have one yet,
> and ALLTRAX keeps telling me, SOON, real soon on the
> higher rated version they are going to release. I
> like ALLTRAX, mainly for the serial output to a PC,
> and the ability to watch it's parameters on a laptop
> in the car.

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I'm one of the proponents for cheaper controllers but as I recall those
chinese controllers were not half price curtis'es. they didn't have the
same max voltage and that's probably the reason they are not being
talked about.
if they were the same specs as curtis then they would be genuinely
interesting. but they are not

that said they are actually so cheap they could be a socalled poor man's
EV choice for contoller. it seem EVUSA has already adopted them:
http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/category_s/48.htm

if they actually work at 84V 400A for 388$ that might actually make for
a nice city car. probably not highway speeds but maybe even that. it's
not a great performer but it is cheaper than 1400$ for the biggest
curtis or 2200$ for the smallest zilla

someone could try and let us know how it works

Dan



Mitch or Terric wrote:
> Interesting .. Of all the discussion I have seen here about how cheaper
> controller were not possible .. Then some body says hey look here .. They
> are selling these for about half the price and they come with a year
> guarantee.. No body wants to talk about that? Interesting..
>
> Any way I would love to have the web site address to this site.. I guess
> they sell a lot of them to China..
> T
> Thanks Mitchell
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Here is the response that I got back from Alltrax at the end of June when I=
asked about their upcoming controllers.

A HV series controller is a given but not the leading product under develop=
ment. We're far into the R&D cycle of a technology applicable to everything=
we'll build in the future, including HV controllers. Primary research is d=
one, need to complete development.

damon


> Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 10:18:14 -0700
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller cheap?
>
> Micheal,
>
> That communication with ALLTRAX wouldn't have included any mention
> of SepEx at the higher voltages would it have? :)
>
> If so, I would like to add my name to the list of interested
> parties.
>
> Chet
>
> --- Michael Barkley wrote:
>
>> I believe it was: www.kellycontroller.com
>>
>> They emailed me, warning me not to go past 100vdc
>> nominal on the highest rated unit they have. I'll
>> have to keep my 72vdc Alltrax, until I win the lottery
>> or something of that nature. I want to go to at least
>> 120vdc, and Kelly Controllers doesn't have one yet,
>> and ALLTRAX keeps telling me, SOON, real soon on the
>> higher rated version they are going to release. I
>> like ALLTRAX, mainly for the serial output to a PC,
>> and the ability to watch it's parameters on a laptop
>> in the car.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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=E9.
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Dan,
Dollars per Killowatt, the Zilla still has these "cheap Poor Man" models beat in price in some instances by 3:1.

Comparing the two most comparable models on this list, KD84600 and Z1K-LV, if a 50KW "cheap" chinese controller can be had for
$500 and the venerable 150KW Zilla Low Voltage can be had for slightly over $1500 (approximately 3X the power at approximately 3X
the price) then its not your buddy in Oregon thats getting rich making 20 to 40 a year.

:-O

Model Volts Amps KW $$ $$/KW
KD36200 36 200 7.2 $159 $22.083
KD36300 36 300 10.8 $199 $18.426
KD48200 48 200 9.6 $199 $20.729
KD48300 48 300 14.4 $239 $16.597
KD48400 48 400 19.2 $289 $15.052
KD48500 48 500 24 $349 $14.542
KD48600 48 600 28.8 $429 $14.896
KD84200 84 200 16.8 $279 $16.607
KD84300 84 300 25.2 $329 $13.056
KD84400 84 400 33.6 $389 $11.577
KD84500 84 500 42 $459 $10.929
KD84600 84 600 50.4 $529 $10.496
Z1K-LV 156 1000 156 $1,975 $12.660
Z1K-HV 300 1000 300 $2,550 $ 8.500
Z1K-EHV 348 1000 348 $2,825 $ 8.118
Z2K-LV 156 2000 312 $3,300 $10.577
Z2K-HV 300 2000 600 $4,450 $ 7.417
Z2K-EHV 348 2000 696 $4,850 $ 6.968

Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]xxx.edu]On
> Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 8:42 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller cheap?
>
>
> I'm one of the proponents for cheaper controllers but as I recall those
> chinese controllers were not half price curtis'es. they didn't have the
> same max voltage and that's probably the reason they are not being
> talked about.
> if they were the same specs as curtis then they would be genuinely
> interesting. but they are not
>
> that said they are actually so cheap they could be a socalled poor man's
> EV choice for contoller. it seem EVUSA has already adopted them:
> http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/category_s/48.htm
>
> if they actually work at 84V 400A for 388$ that might actually make for
> a nice city car. probably not highway speeds but maybe even that. it's
> not a great performer but it is cheaper than 1400$ for the biggest
> curtis or 2200$ for the smallest zilla
>
> someone could try and let us know how it works
>
> Dan
>
>
>
> Mitch or Terric wrote:
> > Interesting .. Of all the discussion I have seen here about how cheaper
> > controller were not possible .. Then some body says hey look here .. They
> > are selling these for about half the price and they come with a year
> > guarantee.. No body wants to talk about that? Interesting..
> >
> > Any way I would love to have the web site address to this site.. I guess
> > they sell a lot of them to China..
> > T
> > Thanks Mitchell
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
poor man's choice generally doesn't involve paying 3 times as much as he
has to. by that I mean kw/$ is not the criteria. it's the minimum price
for a passable car.

also where do you get a zilla for 1500?

Dan

Mike Willmon wrote:

>Dan,
>Dollars per Killowatt, the Zilla still has these "cheap Poor Man" models beat in price in some instances by 3:1.
>
>Comparing the two most comparable models on this list, KD84600 and Z1K-LV, if a 50KW "cheap" chinese controller can be had for
>$500 and the venerable 150KW Zilla Low Voltage can be had for slightly over $1500 (approximately 3X the power at approximately 3X
>the price) then its not your buddy in Oregon thats getting rich making 20 to 40 a year.
>
>:-O
>
>Model Volts Amps KW $$ $$/KW
>KD36200 36 200 7.2 $159 $22.083
>KD36300 36 300 10.8 $199 $18.426
>KD48200 48 200 9.6 $199 $20.729
>KD48300 48 300 14.4 $239 $16.597
>KD48400 48 400 19.2 $289 $15.052
>KD48500 48 500 24 $349 $14.542
>KD48600 48 600 28.8 $429 $14.896
>KD84200 84 200 16.8 $279 $16.607
>KD84300 84 300 25.2 $329 $13.056
>KD84400 84 400 33.6 $389 $11.577
>KD84500 84 500 42 $459 $10.929
>KD84600 84 600 50.4 $529 $10.496
>Z1K-LV 156 1000 156 $1,975 $12.660
>Z1K-HV 300 1000 300 $2,550 $ 8.500
>Z1K-EHV 348 1000 348 $2,825 $ 8.118
>Z2K-LV 156 2000 312 $3,300 $10.577
>Z2K-HV 300 2000 600 $4,450 $ 7.417
>Z2K-EHV 348 2000 696 $4,850 $ 6.968
>
>Mike,
>Anchorage, Ak.
>
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
>>Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
>>Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 8:42 AM
>>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller cheap?
>>
>>
>>I'm one of the proponents for cheaper controllers but as I recall those
>>chinese controllers were not half price curtis'es. they didn't have the
>>same max voltage and that's probably the reason they are not being
>>talked about.
>>if they were the same specs as curtis then they would be genuinely
>>interesting. but they are not
>>
>>that said they are actually so cheap they could be a socalled poor man's
>>EV choice for contoller. it seem EVUSA has already adopted them:
>>http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/category_s/48.htm
>>
>>if they actually work at 84V 400A for 388$ that might actually make for
>>a nice city car. probably not highway speeds but maybe even that. it's
>>not a great performer but it is cheaper than 1400$ for the biggest
>>curtis or 2200$ for the smallest zilla
>>
>>someone could try and let us know how it works
>>
>>Dan
>>
>>
>>
>>Mitch or Terric wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Interesting .. Of all the discussion I have seen here about how cheaper
>>>controller were not possible .. Then some body says hey look here .. They
>>>are selling these for about half the price and they come with a year
>>>guarantee.. No body wants to talk about that? Interesting..
>>>
>>>Any way I would love to have the web site address to this site.. I guess
>>>they sell a lot of them to China..
>>>T
>>>Thanks Mitchell
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>For subscription options, see
>>>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>For subscription options, see
>>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
How could one figure out the demand for a more economical, in stock / off
the shelf controller? What should the specs be? 36 - 300 Volts 1000 Amps
max? What would a fair price be?

Dave Delman
Electric DeLorean Conversion





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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Hello Dave,

Looking through my electrical parts catalog, either from GE, Westinghouse,
Square D, etc. which are the whole sale prices, it seems all the electrical
components are at about $1.00 per amp.

Looking at a 1000 amp Limitron Circuit Breaker, it about $1000.00, a 5000
amp circuit breaker is about $5000.00 and so on. Same with the contactors,
a 600 amp contactor is about $600.00.

Looking through the NTE solid state component catalog, is the same story.
The high power diodes, SCR's and Traic's are also about a dollar a amp. The
800 amp hockey puck which is in one of my old controllers cost about $600.00
each.

I complete spare component kit for my old 1000 amp rated controller cost me
about $3500.00, which was bought right from the factory, not from a parts
dealer.

So, now you have this box of components, but you must build heat sinks,
chassis, do the connections, assembly the wiring, make the enclosures, add
circuit breakers, labels, testing and etc.

In our work, we purchase a lot of components that is a factory un-assembly
pack, which means we assemble it in the field. A $10,000.00 factory
assembly unit will cost us about $5,000.00 for the un-assembly pack if we
only want one of each instead of a 100 units that we may have to factory
assemble it for us to same time.

We than can bid between $15,000.00 to $20,000.00 to install this unit. For
example a Power Anderson Plug aircraft starting unit that is completely
assembly by Power Anderson, cost us about $10,000.00, but we can make this
unit by using a un-assembly pack and install it into a Hoffman Nema 12
enclosure for $5000.00 and install it for $10,000.00.

The 1000 amp Zilla or 2000 amp Zilla, the very fair price would be at about
three times the amp rating of these units but could be more depending on the
voltage rating and additional components you want for it.

Roland

Roland

So if a un-assembly 1000 amp component pack cost about $1000.00, add about
another $1000.00 for labor and assembly and another $1000.00 for profit,
that will be a close estimate.


----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller cheap?


>
>
> How could one figure out the demand for a more economical, in stock / off
> the shelf controller? What should the specs be? 36 - 300 Volts 1000
> Amps
> max? What would a fair price be?
>
> Dave Delman
> Electric DeLorean Conversion
>
>
>
>
>
> ************************************** See what's new at
> http://www.aol.com
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
[email protected] wrote:
> How could one figure out the demand for a more economical, in stock /
> off the shelf controller? What should the specs be? 36-300 Volts
> 1000 Amps max? What would a fair price be?

The only practical way is to look at what's available, what it sells
for, and how many units they seem to be selling.

Of course, there may be a market niche that no one is filling, so you
can only guess at what sales might be if it existed.

"Fair price" is difficult. Customers think $1 is a fair price, while
manufacturers think $1,000,000 each would be nice.

Given human nature, you could probably produce an absolutely horrible
controller for a little less than the cheapest one now available, sell a
bunch of them in a hurry, and then run off with the money before people
find out they are junk. Wait a while, move, change your name, and do it
all over again.

Or you could spend a lot more time and money to build a good controller.
It will cost more, so you'll sell less, but may be able to make enough
to survive for a while. The challenge here is that you lose more if you
fail, and there is no guarantee that the EV market will ever grow enough
so you can make a decent living at it.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
demand is hard to say, the enthusiast market doesn't seem to be huge yet
but a good and cheap controller could change that. if it's actually
genuinely reliable you may also be able to get the forklift market

as for cost, the key electronics seems to be power transistors, diodes
and caps. the transistors could be these for instance:
http://www.st.com/stonline/books/pdf/docs/13241.pdf at less than 2$ a
pop at 500 pieces. I guesstimate that if water cooled you could get
40amps out of those even in parallel. maybe even more but that would be
roughly 100$. for 1000amps worth.
then say perhaps this panasonic 350V 100uF cap:
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/components/pdf/ee104_eeu_eb_dne.pdf
at 1$ if you buy 1000 at a time. maybe 50 of those needed. let's say
roughly 2-300$ for the main electronics. then the supporting
electronics, some simple bussbars, water cooling bar and fittings, PCB,
base board and thermoplastic lid etc.. say 500$ total cost? profitable
at 800$ in volume maybe..

more importantly I don't think you need 1000amps continuous power. 300V
500A is more than fine for instance. that's almost 200 ponies
and I figure the chinese could spit those out for 500$ retail. I would
buy one

where it really gets interesting is when it's combined with DCDC and a
recharger in a sub 1000$ package. that would be something and that's
what we need electronics wise

Dan



[email protected] wrote:



How could one figure out the demand for a more economical, in stock /
off the shelf controller? What should the specs be? 36 - 300 Volts
1000 Amps max? What would a fair price be?

Dave Delman
Electric DeLorean Conversion



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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Dan Frederiksen <[email protected]> wrote:
> demand is hard to say, the enthusiast market doesn't seem to be huge yet
> but a good and cheap controller could change that. if it's actually
> genuinely reliable you may also be able to get the forklift market
>
> as for cost, the key electronics seems to be power transistors, diodes
> and caps. the transistors could be these for instance:
> http://www.st.com/stonline/books/pdf/docs/13241.pdf at less than 2$ a
> pop at 500 pieces. I guesstimate that if water cooled you could get
> 40amps out of those even in parallel. maybe even more but that would be
> roughly 100$. for 1000amps worth.

Those are IGBTs; they don't go in parallel very well because tiny
manufacturing differences will make some take well more than their
share of current. Plus, they're 600V IGBTs with 2.5V vsat. You'd be
much better off with MOSFETs because they parallel better and they're
more efficient at lower voltages. MOSFETs instead of IGBTs won't add a
lot to the cost, though.

> then say perhaps this panasonic 350V 100uF cap:
> http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/components/pdf/ee104_eeu_eb_dne.pdf
> at 1$ if you buy 1000 at a time. maybe 50 of those needed. let's say

Those caps aren't nearly good enough. They're rated at only 970mA
ripple current at 100 kHz. Your setup gives you caps rated for 48A at
100kHz. They also have 2.65 ohms ESR, which will be a problem.

In theory, the caps could handle up to half the current of the motor
as ripple current (zero battery ripple current, 50% duty cycle). The
actual ripple current may be lower in most circumstances, but it's a
good upper bound to design for. So for a 500A controller, your
capacitor array should be rated for 250A ripple current. That will
really raise the price.

> roughly 2-300$ for the main electronics. then the supporting
> electronics, some simple bussbars, water cooling bar and fittings, PCB,
> base board and thermoplastic lid etc.. say 500$ total cost? profitable
> at 800$ in volume maybe..

I don't think you'll get water cooling for that cheap. Air cooling
should be enough for it, though.

> more importantly I don't think you need 1000amps continuous power. 300V
> 500A is more than fine for instance. that's almost 200 ponies
> and I figure the chinese could spit those out for 500$ retail. I would
> buy one

You have to design for peak power, though, not continuous. While for
an EV, going up a hill for 30 seconds is peak current draw, for the
electronics it may as well be continuous.

> where it really gets interesting is when it's combined with DCDC and a
> recharger in a sub 1000$ package. that would be something and that's
> what we need electronics wise

I agree, that would be really nice. I also think it may be possible.

-Morgan

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I couldn't even begin to guesstimate the number of units that are selling
now but at my first EV meeting yesterday it certainly seemed that the controller
was the Achilles' Heel of a conversion. Something strong, reliable, not
too expensive, and something that doesn't take months to get needs to be made.

and I suppose including a DC - DC converter either inside or as a package
would be a plus. In terms of a recharger, that seems to get a bit more
complicated due to the fact that there are a number of chemistries, pack voltages
and AmpHour ratings being used.




Thank you,

Dave Delman
1981 Electric DeLorean Project



[email protected] wrote:
> How could one figure out the demand for a more economical, in stock /
> off the shelf controller? What should the specs be? 36-300 Volts
> 1000 Amps max? What would a fair price be?


Lee Hart wrote:
The only practical way is to look at what's available, what it sells
for, and how many units they seem to be selling.


Dan Frederiksen wrote:
where it really gets interesting is when it's combined with DCDC and a
recharger in a sub 1000$ package. that would be something and that's
what we need electronics wise




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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Call me old fashioned, but I still like my home stereo
to be in component sections, IE: Receiver, amp, tape
deck, CD deck, etc. This way if one goes out, all I
have to replace is the one device, and not the whole
system. Usually individual pieces are also better
quality than something that is an All-in-One.

Therefore, I vote to keep the EV components
individualized and less complicated. Just my opinion
though....


--- [email protected] wrote:

>
>
> I couldn't even begin to guesstimate the number of
> units that are selling
> now but at my first EV meeting yesterday it
> certainly seemed that the controller
> was the Achilles' Heel of a conversion. Something
> strong, reliable, not
> too expensive, and something that doesn't take
> months to get needs to be made.
>
> and I suppose including a DC - DC converter either
> inside or as a package
> would be a plus. In terms of a recharger, that
> seems to get a bit more
> complicated due to the fact that there are a number
> of chemistries, pack voltages
> and AmpHour ratings being used.
>
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Dave Delman
> 1981 Electric DeLorean Project
>
>
>
> [email protected] wrote:
> > How could one figure out the demand for a more
> economical, in stock /
> > off the shelf controller? What should the specs
> be? 36-300 Volts
> > 1000 Amps max? What would a fair price be?
>
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
> The only practical way is to look at what's
> available, what it sells
> for, and how many units they seem to be selling.
>
>
> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> where it really gets interesting is when it's
> combined with DCDC and a
> recharger in a sub 1000$ package. that would be
> something and that's
> what we need electronics wise
>
>
>
>
> ************************************** See what's
> new at http://www.aol.com
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
The problem here is not the cost of the controllers, it's unrealistic user
expectations.

People want a high tech piece of equipment that is capable of handling
enourmous amounts of power, but they want to pay less for it than the cost
of a used laptop.

I mean even a wimpy, under powered, Curtis controller handles twice as
much power as the main power panel on a new house, AND it costs less that
the same power panel which is made up of nothing but wires and circuit
breakers, but some folks still insist on whining about how expensive
controllers are.

I'd bet the same people wouldn't bat an eyelid at spending $5,000 or more
on an engagement ring and would think that that is a fair price to pay for
a chunk of rock mounted on a bit of metal.

>
> I couldn't even begin to guesstimate the number of units that are selling
> now but at my first EV meeting yesterday it certainly seemed that the
> controller
> was the Achilles' Heel of a conversion. Something strong, reliable, not
> too expensive, and something that doesn't take months to get needs to be
> made.
>
> and I suppose including a DC - DC converter either inside or as a package
> would be a plus. In terms of a recharger, that seems to get a bit more
> complicated due to the fact that there are a number of chemistries, pack
> voltages
> and AmpHour ratings being used.
>
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Dave Delman
> 1981 Electric DeLorean Project
>
>
>
> [email protected] wrote:
>> How could one figure out the demand for a more economical, in stock /
>> off the shelf controller? What should the specs be? 36-300 Volts
>> 1000 Amps max? What would a fair price be?
>
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
> The only practical way is to look at what's available, what it sells
> for, and how many units they seem to be selling.
>
>
> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> where it really gets interesting is when it's combined with DCDC and a
> recharger in a sub 1000$ package. that would be something and that's
> what we need electronics wise
>
>
>
>
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I suggest you start a business to make these units,
the real proof of the pudding is in the eating....


Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
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-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 11:01 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller cheap?

demand is hard to say, the enthusiast market doesn't seem to be huge yet but a good and cheap controller could change that. if it's actually genuinely reliable you may also be able to get the forklift market

as for cost, the key electronics seems to be power transistors, diodes and caps. the transistors could be these for instance:
http://www.st.com/stonline/books/pdf/docs/13241.pdf at less than 2$ a pop at 500 pieces. I guesstimate that if water cooled you could get 40amps out of those even in parallel. maybe even more but that would be roughly 100$. for 1000amps worth.
then say perhaps this panasonic 350V 100uF cap:
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/components/pdf/ee104_eeu_eb_dne.pdf
at 1$ if you buy 1000 at a time. maybe 50 of those needed. let's say roughly 2-300$ for the main electronics. then the supporting electronics, some simple bussbars, water cooling bar and fittings, PCB, base board and thermoplastic lid etc.. say 500$ total cost? profitable at 800$ in volume maybe..

more importantly I don't think you need 1000amps continuous power. 300V 500A is more than fine for instance. that's almost 200 ponies and I figure the chinese could spit those out for 500$ retail. I would buy one

where it really gets interesting is when it's combined with DCDC and a recharger in a sub 1000$ package. that would be something and that's what we need electronics wise

Dan



[email protected] wrote:



How could one figure out the demand for a more economical, in stock / off the shelf controller? What should the specs be? 36 - 300 Volts 1000 Amps max? What would a fair price be?

Dave Delman
Electric DeLorean Conversion



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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Morgan LaMoore wrote:

>Those are IGBTs; they don't go in parallel very well because tiny
>manufacturing differences will make some take well more than their
>share of current. Plus, they're 600V IGBTs with 2.5V vsat. You'd be
>much better off with MOSFETs because they parallel better and they're
>more efficient at lower voltages. MOSFETs instead of IGBTs won't add a
>lot to the cost, though.
>
>
the zilla seems to contradict that. and the reason for the water cooling
is so they have a large overcapacity to perhaps compensate for problems
in load sharing

>Those caps aren't nearly good enough. They're rated at only 970mA
>ripple current at 100 kHz. Your setup gives you caps rated for 48A at
>100kHz. They also have 2.65 ohms ESR, which will be a problem.
>In theory, the caps could handle up to half the current of the motor
>as ripple current (zero battery ripple current, 50% duty cycle). The
>actual ripple current may be lower in most circumstances, but it's a
>good upper bound to design for. So for a 500A controller, your
>capacitor array should be rated for 250A ripple current. That will
>really raise the price.
>
>
Lee Hart used that series as an upgrade of a curtis. the EE series is a
bit better but digikey doesn't seem to carry that. further, the caps in
a curtis have nowhere near half the ripple current of the controllers
peak. nor does the zilla seem to. more like 10%, maybe less.

>I don't think you'll get water cooling for that cheap. Air cooling
>should be enough for it, though.
>
>
water cooling is nothing but a alu bar with a groove and a lid and plugs
at each end. air is not enough in my idea because I rely on the greater
power margin I get with a cool chip. the current rating can double with
good cooling it seems.

>>more importantly I don't think you need 1000amps continuous power. 300V
>>500A is more than fine for instance. that's almost 200 ponies
>>and I figure the chinese could spit those out for 500$ retail. I would
>>buy one
>>
>>
>You have to design for peak power, though, not continuous. While for
>an EV, going up a hill for 30 seconds is peak current draw, for the
>electronics it may as well be continuous.
>
>
I think you contradict yourself there. I was already designing for
continuous power since these little transistors can live a lifetime in a
few microseconds

>>where it really gets interesting is when it's combined with DCDC and a
>>recharger in a sub 1000$ package.
>>
>I agree, that would be really nice. I also think it may be possible.
>
>
of course it's possible

Dan

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
[email protected] wrote:

>and I suppose including a DC - DC converter either inside or as a package
>would be a plus. In terms of a recharger, that seems to get a bit more
>complicated due to the fact that there are a number of chemistries, pack voltages
>and AmpHour ratings being used.
>
>
should be purely a software issue

Dan

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
ok old fashioned :) but it's not so much old fashioned as it was always
wrong. imagine your pc in separate decks...

if' hifi' was burdened by rational thought it would be all cheap digital
components, digital wiring and the good digital amplifier in the
speakers. closed loop too.
I mean no offense, just telling the truth. don't shoot the messenger

to me it's more than a little obvious that controller, 12v and charger
should be one

Dan

Michael Barkley wrote:

>Call me old fashioned, but I still like my home stereo
>to be in component sections, IE: Receiver, amp, tape
>deck, CD deck, etc. This way if one goes out, all I
>have to replace is the one device, and not the whole
>system. Usually individual pieces are also better
>quality than something that is an All-in-One.
>
>Therefore, I vote to keep the EV components
>individualized and less complicated. Just my opinion
>though....
>
>

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
In a conventional system I too agree replaceable modules is best. But I
can see that combining things to save silicone and reduce weight may be
a great advantage to.

I have been playing around with a few unconventional design ideas,
mostly centered around LiFePo4 cells
1) pack slices. a 300V battery slice with bidirectional,
parallelable dc-dc.
This serves as the charger with string balancing because with
the main breaker off, DC applied to the mains is converted and passed to
the battery slice. Each slice gets what it needs and has internal
balancing circuitry.
This serves as the controller or at least the dc link
voltage part of an AC controller, if each slice has it's own inductor
and can put out 100A @ 170V(for dc) or 100A @ 300V(AC) AND can serve as
the REGEN controller to.
This allows expanding the pack without changing system
voltage. change them like tires on a college student budget. ie Buy 4 of
the 9.2ah slices to start, add 2 slices per year as needed and you
never have to replace them all at once.
Multiple taps on the dc-dc output 12V and 42V for the legacy
systems and the electric power steering and brake booster.

2) A non-dissipative battery balancer that consists of a shared
toroid dc-dc converter using QR-ZVS(Quasi-resonant ZeroVoltSwitching)
This converter has 6 - 3.4 volt sides and one 12V/42V side. The
12V/42Volt side serves as an isolated bus allowing the transfer of power
between modules while providing the 12V and 42V we will need. Since this
system is geared more towards group 24 sized modules ([email protected]
[email protected]) each 12V/42V side only puts out 15-20A max, keeping the
whole circuit in single TO220 sized silicon. Since a whole system has at
least 10 modules, this gives us the 50-100A needed for 12V loads. The
dc-dc by being isolated and bidirectional, becomes the balancer during
charge.

3) For the lead consumer, my quick-charge system. A mixture of Lee
Harts battery balancer and a fancy(More complicated, less reliable,
advance features) PFC control board. The idea is to control the pfc
charger and connect it to any contiguous sub-string of batteries. For
you computer freaks, you will recognize the divide and conquer
algorithm. Charge whole pack until done. If battery i reaches cutoff,
then charge battery 'first' to i-1 until done then charge i+1 to 'last'
until done. When last = first = i, done = true. (there is a lot more to
this!, IUI, phases, Approach control, Wh counting, Charge Estimation,
Telemetry...)

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