[EVDL List]

I've had little down time since completing my conversion in Nov/2009
(http://www.evalbum.com/3060). A cheap bms failed draining some cells, but I
was able to continue using the car with the bms removed. I replaced 4 of
those cells later due more drift/sag than other cells. Installed a minibms
a few months later. The brake vacuum pump failed, and was replaced free of
charge. I also had to send the Manzanita charger back for replacement of the
input rectifier board. It's been down for repair less than about 12 days
since the conversion was completed. Mainly due to shipping time for the
charger. Other events were around 1-2 day down time each. Over 7500 miles
to date. No problems for the last several months.
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[EVDL List]

tomw wrote:
>
> I've had little down time since completing my conversion in Nov/2009
> (http://www.evalbum.com/3060). A cheap bms failed draining some cells, but I

Thanks for the response! Looks like you are doing well. Still, less
than 4,000 miles/year is not all that much. I have been doing over
5,000 miles per year and had been hoping for more like 10,000. That's
important because the battery's shelf life of ~ 10 years will expire
far before it's cycle life which might be as much as 4000. I've only
done about 250 cycles in three years.

Consider updating your "EV Miles" section on your evalbum page, it
still says 2,500.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 155 days 9 hours 37 minutes

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[EVDL List]

Just under 7500 miles the first year, not under 4000.

Wow, one response and the thread is already hijacked.
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[EVDL List]

tomw wrote:
>
> Just under 7500 miles the first year, not under 4000.

Yes, I see now. I had (miss)computed that your car had been on the
road two years. 14-15 months is correct? 7,000+ miles in the first
year is respectable and impressive!

> Wow, one response and the thread is already hijacked.

Don't understand. I consider the distance an EV can be driven in a
given amount of time to be a good indication of reliability. I
attempted to point out that moderate to high reliability is needed to
get full value out of lithium.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 156 days 7 hours 28 minutes

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[EVDL List]

Willie McKemie <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 06:19:47AM -0800, tomw wrote:
> >
> > Just under 7500 miles the first year, not under 4000.
>
> Yes, I see now. I had (miss)computed that your car had been on the
> road two years. 14-15 months is correct? 7,000+ miles in the first
> year is respectable and impressive!
>
> > Wow, one response and the thread is already hijacked.
>
> Don't understand. I consider the distance an EV can be driven in a
> given amount of time to be a good indication of reliability. I
> attempted to point out that moderate to high reliability is needed to
> get full value out of lithium.
>


FWIW I've got about 14,000 miles out of the first year of driving with SE
cells, car has 80-100 miles range.
I had to reset the car once but other than that it's been hands off, just
plug it in.

Regards
Evan
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[EVDL List]

I've had my Honda del Sol conversion about 6 months. I drove it very
solidly every day for about 3 months before starting some re-wiring projects
that have had it out of commission for the last 3 months. Those weren't
driven by reliability problems so much as the new owner's desire to tinker
8^). I got a little over 2000 miles during 3 months. My commute is 46
miles round-trip, so I'll put the miles on pretty quickly once I'm back on
the road again. Should be within the next couple of weeks.

So far, I haven't had any major issues. There were some annoyances that are
getting fixed. Things like the wiring to the tachometer cutting out
intermittently. The major project was rewiring the charger input so I can
take 110 and 220V inputs. I'm also adding lots of small things like an
interlock on the fuel cover door, temperature sensor on the motor wired into
the original temperature gauge, miniBMS alert wired to a new buzzer and the
oil pressure light. Also, adding a heater and redoing the DC-DC converter
to fix a problem with my initial installation. Finally, adding meters for
pack voltage and pack current.

Mike
www.evalbum.com/2778


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Willie McKemie
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 9:33 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] conversion reliability

tomw wrote:
>
> Just under 7500 miles the first year, not under 4000.

Yes, I see now. I had (miss)computed that your car had been on the
road two years. 14-15 months is correct? 7,000+ miles in the first
year is respectable and impressive!

> Wow, one response and the thread is already hijacked.

Don't understand. I consider the distance an EV can be driven in a given
amount of time to be a good indication of reliability. I attempted to point
out that moderate to high reliability is needed to get full value out of
lithium.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 156 days 7 hours 28 minutes

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[EVDL List]

On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 03:36:52PM +0000, Evan Tuer wrote:
>
> FWIW I've got about 14,000 miles out of the first year of driving with SE
> cells, car has 80-100 miles range.
> I had to reset the car once but other than that it's been hands off, just
> plug it in.

http://evalbum.com/2406
?

I guess you got "a leg up" by starting with a factory built EV. Most
of my un-reliability has been associated not with the battery but with
other conversion components.

None the less, an AVERAGE of nearly 40 miles a day with a range of
80-100 is just about as good as anyone could hope for. You may well
get full value out of your lithium!

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 156 days 8 hours 07 minutes

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[EVDL List]

I did have one time that the del Sol quit on me and left me calling for
help. The original car had a separate 12V trickle charger for the original
12V battery. It quit and I didn't know it. Once the 12V battery died, the
main contactor cut out. Kind of embarrassing to have 14 kWh of energy
stored but be unable to drive because the 12V battery is dead! That
prompted the installation of the DC-DC converter. Also, I now carry some
10ga cables that could be used in a pinch to go across 4 of the lithium
cells to provide 12V.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Mike Nickerson
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 8:56 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] conversion reliability

I've had my Honda del Sol conversion about 6 months. I drove it very
solidly every day for about 3 months before starting some re-wiring projects
that have had it out of commission for the last 3 months. Those weren't
driven by reliability problems so much as the new owner's desire to tinker
8^). I got a little over 2000 miles during 3 months. My commute is 46
miles round-trip, so I'll put the miles on pretty quickly once I'm back on
the road again. Should be within the next couple of weeks.

So far, I haven't had any major issues. There were some annoyances that are
getting fixed. Things like the wiring to the tachometer cutting out
intermittently. The major project was rewiring the charger input so I can
take 110 and 220V inputs. I'm also adding lots of small things like an
interlock on the fuel cover door, temperature sensor on the motor wired into
the original temperature gauge, miniBMS alert wired to a new buzzer and the
oil pressure light. Also, adding a heater and redoing the DC-DC converter
to fix a problem with my initial installation. Finally, adding meters for
pack voltage and pack current.

Mike
www.evalbum.com/2778


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Willie McKemie
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 9:33 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] conversion reliability

tomw wrote:
>
> Just under 7500 miles the first year, not under 4000.

Yes, I see now. I had (miss)computed that your car had been on the
road two years. 14-15 months is correct? 7,000+ miles in the first
year is respectable and impressive!

> Wow, one response and the thread is already hijacked.

Don't understand. I consider the distance an EV can be driven in a given
amount of time to be a good indication of reliability. I attempted to point
out that moderate to high reliability is needed to get full value out of
lithium.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 156 days 7 hours 28 minutes

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[EVDL List]

Mike Nickerson wrote:
> I did have one time that the del Sol quit on me and left me calling for
> help. The original car had a separate 12V trickle charger for the original
> 12V battery. It quit and I didn't know it. Once the 12V battery died, the
> main contactor cut out. Kind of embarrassing to have 14 kWh of energy
> stored but be unable to drive because the 12V battery is dead! That
> prompted the installation of the DC-DC converter. Also, I now carry some
> 10ga cables that could be used in a pinch to go across 4 of the lithium
> cells to provide 12V.

I've had that kinda problem several times. Kinda embarrassing to have
to ask an ice driver for a jump! For a while, when my Soliton was
killing my DC-DC, I carried around a pair of GC batteries in the
passenger footwell wired to the 12v aux battery.

Both my controller and DC-DC need 10+ v to start. I've had my 12v
battery die so many times, I have a permanently installed light
(~12 ga) jumper cable with spring clips on both ends; normally not
hooked up on either end. I had to use it only once so far. Worked
great, just a few seconds to turn on both the controller and the
DC-DC and I was back in business.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 156 days 9 hours 33 minutes

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[EVDL List]

Willie McKemie wrote:
> I wonder if there are more successful conversion stories out there?

Projects built by beginners and small startup companies often have a
difficult learning curve. A friend of mine calls this the "little
professor" problem -- people who are very bright and energetic, but lack
practical experience. They make mistakes due to their lack of experience
that turn out to have serious consequences. "Fuses? We don' need no
steenkin' fuses! Our design is perfect and will never fail!"

I think success is like a haystack curve. Too little knowledge and
experience, and you unknowingly throw things together that are doomed to
fail. Too much knowledge and experience, and you are so scared of all
the possible consequences that you drastcially overbuild it to the point
that it's too heavy/slow/expensive to be worth the effort.

The goal is to find the center; the compromise between these extremes.
You need enough knowledge and experience to avoid the likely mistakes,
but not so much that you overdesign it.

I like to think that one of the main purposes of the EV list is to help
people avoid these two extremes.

My own EV "learning curve" illustrates this phenomenon. My first EV
(built back in the 1970's) was pretty crude. I had only seen a few
working on-road EVs, and they were mostly bad examples. I was fresh out
of college, and naive and inexperienced. I think I had just about all
the classic beginner failures with that EV -- destroyed batteries,
burned off terminals, fried motor brushes, charger and controller
failures...

But one by one, I fixed each problem. More importantly, I tried to learn
*why* it failed, and so to fix it in such a way that wouldn't fail
again. I slowly learned to "do this..." and "don't do that..."

Each subsequent EV that I owned was more reliable than the last. I made
fewer mistakes. I learned to expect problems, make measurements, and fix
things before they failed.

By the time I got to my current EV (a US Electricar Lectric Leopard
a.k.a a converted Renault LeCar), I knew enough to rip out everything US
Electricar had done and re-convert it from scratch. I then drove it for
10 years with almost no failures.

So, it's possible to have a reliable EV conversion. But it won't happen
without a lot of knowledge, experience, and hard work!
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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[EVDL List]

Lee Hart wrote:
>
> By the time I got to my current EV (a US Electricar Lectric Leopard
> a.k.a a converted Renault LeCar), I knew enough to rip out everything US
> Electricar had done and re-convert it from scratch. I then drove it for
> 10 years with almost no failures.
>
> So, it's possible to have a reliable EV conversion. But it won't happen
> without a lot of knowledge, experience, and hard work!

http://evalbum.com/213

Doesn't tell us how many miles you have put on the LeCar.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 156 days 11 hours 12 minutes

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[EVDL List]

Hey Mike,

Mike Nickerson wrote:

> I've had my Honda del Sol conversion about 6 months. I drove it very
> solidly every day for about 3 months before starting some re-wiring projects
> that have had it out of commission for the last 3 months. Those weren't
> driven by reliability problems so much as the new owner's desire to tinker
> 8^). I got a little over 2000 miles during 3 months. My commute is 46
> miles round-trip, so I'll put the miles on pretty quickly once I'm back on
> the road again. Should be within the next couple of weeks.

I see you have 45 100ah TS cells. What is your SOC% after the 46 mile round trip commute?

--corbin

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[EVDL List]

I can charge at work, so I'm only using about 50% each way. I wouldn't be
comfortable with what it would do to the batteries round trip.

I drove 55 miles on the pack once. That was about 3-4 miles too many. I
couldn't hear the alarm buzzer from the miniBMS at highway speed so I
noticed the batteries were in distress when I got to my driveway. By then 2
cells were at 0 volts. I charged them up right away, babied them during a
slow charge and kept close track of the temperature of the cells. They
seemed to recover OK, but I'm still watching them.

I also learned that my cells weren't as balanced as I previously thought. I
had a few other cells that were about 20% lower than the top cells. That's
when I went out and bought the top-up charger in my last post. That charger
does a really nice job of pointing out how low your cells are. Kind of
makes you gulp when it puts in 20Ah just after the main charging cycle
finishes. On a full cell, it measures less than 1Ah it tried to put in.

I also have found recently that my front disk brakes are dragging. Fixing
that should help range a little. I'm using about 250 Wh/mile right now.
I'm hoping to get it down to 200-225 Wh/mile when I'm done. With a
well-balanced pack and the car well adjusted, I think I may make 60 mile+
range, but I'm still glad I can charge at work. I also have a much louder
buzzer now, and the alarm circuit is now wired into the oil pressure idiot
light on the dash too.

That energy usage is on a commute that is a combination of highway (about 55
mph) and a little stop-go traffic as I get into town. However, I've been
driving it for 18 years now, so I know where the speed limit changes are and
when the lights are likely to change. I coast a lot. I routinely get 35
mpg on an ICE that is EPA rated for 27 mpg. That definitely makes my range
numbers on the high side for variable traffic and other drivers.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of corbin dunn
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 5:31 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] conversion reliability

Hey Mike,

Mike Nickerson wrote:

> I've had my Honda del Sol conversion about 6 months. I drove it very
> solidly every day for about 3 months before starting some re-wiring
> projects that have had it out of commission for the last 3 months.
> Those weren't driven by reliability problems so much as the new
> owner's desire to tinker 8^). I got a little over 2000 miles during 3
> months. My commute is 46 miles round-trip, so I'll put the miles on
> pretty quickly once I'm back on the road again. Should be within the next
couple of weeks.

I see you have 45 100ah TS cells. What is your SOC% after the 46 mile round
trip commute?

--corbin

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[EVDL List]

Hi Willie,

Can you expand on the Soliton/DC-DC converter issue? Might be
relevant to others planning to use the Soliton.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk

Willie McKemie wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 09:01:30AM -0700, Mike Nickerson wrote:
>> I did have one time that the del Sol quit on me and left me calling
>> for
>> help. The original car had a separate 12V trickle charger for the
>> original
>> 12V battery. It quit and I didn't know it. Once the 12V battery
>> died, the
>> main contactor cut out. Kind of embarrassing to have 14 kWh of
>> energy
>> stored but be unable to drive because the 12V battery is dead! That
>> prompted the installation of the DC-DC converter. Also, I now
>> carry some
>> 10ga cables that could be used in a pinch to go across 4 of the
>> lithium
>> cells to provide 12V.
>
> I've had that kinda problem several times. Kinda embarrassing to have
> to ask an ice driver for a jump! For a while, when my Soliton was
> killing my DC-DC, I carried around a pair of GC batteries in the
> passenger footwell wired to the 12v aux battery.
>
> Both my controller and DC-DC need 10+ v to start. I've had my 12v
> battery die so many times, I have a permanently installed light
> (~12 ga) jumper cable with spring clips on both ends; normally not
> hooked up on either end. I had to use it only once so far. Worked
> great, just a few seconds to turn on both the controller and the
> DC-DC and I was back in business.
>

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[EVDL List]

On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 10:02:56AM +0000, Martin WINLOW wrote:
> Hi Willie,
>
> Can you expand on the Soliton/DC-DC converter issue? Might be
> relevant to others planning to use the Soliton.

The Belktronix DC-DC that worked fine with a Logisystem controller
started blowing up as soon as the Soliton was installed. Apparently,
much more "ripple current" with the Soliton. After eventually
correctly diagnosing the problem, Brian/Belktronix installed an
internal inductor which solved the problem.

At that time, I wasn't regularly monitoring 12 v voltage so I ran the
aux battery down several times before I knew something was amiss. Now,
I have a cigarette lighter socket voltmeter; it gives me a sense of
wellbeing when I see it come up to ~14v when I turn the ignition switch
on.

The episode left me with high confidence of getting good product
support from Belktronix in the future.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 157 days 2 hours 43 minutes

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[EVDL List]

Mike Nickerson wrote:
>
> I also learned that my cells weren't as balanced as I previously thought. I
> had a few other cells that were about 20% lower than the top cells. That's

Can you speak more on what you were doing to balance before and after?

My conception of doing a "balance" is contriving to get all modules to
light up red at the same time.

Are you now cycling through your pack, six cells at a time, with your
SkyCharger?

Maybe you don't have shunting on your modules?

Did you not do an initial balance? Just started using your cells "out
of the box"?

I seem to recall that Jack Rickard contends that cells come from the
factory well balanced. My experience has been they come about 50%
charged but vary from cell to cell by quite a bit, maybe 10% or more.
My initial balances have been long and tedious. I look forward to
doing my first initial balance using my "balancing charger", four 45 v
power supplies in series.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 157 days 3 hours 05 minutes

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[EVDL List]

"> Wow, one response and the thread is already hijacked.

Don't understand. I consider the distance an EV can be driven in a
given amount of time to be a good indication of reliability. I
attempted to point out that moderate to high reliability is needed to
get full value out of lithium."

I was referring to the other two posts on fastening angle aluminum, which
have nothing to do with your thread.

The car was available to drive many more miles, I just didn't need to.
--
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[EVDL List]

tomw wrote:

> I was referring to the other two posts on fastening angle aluminum, which
> have nothing to do with your thread.

Ah! No doubt someone replied to a random post to start a new thread,
changing the Subject:. I do the same many times except I clear out the
In-Reply-To: header line also.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 157 days 6 hours 12 minutes

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[EVDL List]

Lee wrote
. I then drove it for
> 10 years with almost no failures.
>
> So, it's possible to have a reliable EV conversion. But it won't happen
> without a lot of knowledge, experience, and hard work!

There's another reason I believe some people do better than others and this
is just HOW they drive and care for there EV. Some people seem to have a
sense , even when using some machine they've never used before. When I let
someone drive one of my ev's I hold on to the keys till we've had a little
talk. Some (few) will ask a lot of good questions before driving ( I'm
always impressed when asked where is the emergency disconnect ) .
Steve Clunn
--
Tomorrows Ride TODAY !
Visit our shop web page at: www.Greenshedconversions.com
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