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Discussion Starter #1
Does anyone know of a DC -DC converter manufacturer that can do an up converter around 60V to 150V around 10kW so that I can make my series DC regen. There are folk here that do a plug-in Prius kit (Lithium) that works at 48V but "ups" to match the Prius 200V battery pack so the equipment exists. This converter has the wrong voltages & is too small around 3-5kW.
David
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Discussion Starter #2
Hi David, I think your concept although innovative is possibly unstable,
simple series dc is a poorly regulated generator for "Regen" perhaps if you
"Sep-Ex" it during the Regen so control of the field windings can regulate
and stabilize the output then feed a small separate "Boost" pack during
Regen and use a readily available DC/DC to transfer charge from the
"Boost-Pack" to the, Main pack the "Boost Pack" could be any workable
voltage and smaller in capacity perhaps 60 v @ 2 to 6 kw. So as to be priced
reasonable, it still adds to the total range as the DC/DC transfers over 2
to 3 times the braking time to transfer the Boost energy into the Main Pack.
Regards,
Dennis Miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Sharpe <[email protected]>wrote:

> Does anyone know of a DC -DC converter manufacturer that can do an up
> converter around 60V to 150V around 10kW so that I can make my series DC
> regen. There are folk here that do a plug-in Prius kit (Lithium) that works
> at 48V but "ups" to match the Prius 200V battery pack so the equipment
> exists. This converter has the wrong voltages & is too small around 3-5kW.
> David
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--
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I or (813) 434 - 3884
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Discussion Starter #3
David Sharpe wrote:
> Does anyone know of a DC-DC converter manufacturer that can do an up
> converter around 60V to 150V around 10kW so that I can make my series
> DC regen.

Do you mean you want a DC/DC with an input voltage of 60vdc, and an
output voltage of 150vdc, at around 10kw?

These exist. It's called a "boost converter". One example would be the
Manzanita Micro PFC line of chargers (though I don't know if they can
work with as low as 60v input).

Your best bet is to look for motor controllers intended to do regen on a
series DC motor. They are configured as boost converters during regen
operation. They will also have the necessary controls to operate correctly.

However, series generators are difficult to control, and operation is
far from intuitive. You may want to do some research on the behavior of
a series generator. The motor behaves as a *current* source, not a
voltage source; that makes it unstable if connected to a constant
voltage device like a battery. If the motor does not have interpoles,
you have to set the brushes at neutral position or arcing becomes excessive.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Discussion Starter #4
I was going to do something like this- applying up to 200A to the field then
manipulating the low volts DC produced.
I regularly drive by EV to our ranch 60 miles away but in two places there
are steep grades calling for regen. I suppose I am a bit of an extremist as
I am doing a lot of long distance driving by EV. Completed Melbourne to
Adelaide & rtn recently (1800ks)
Thanks David

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Dennis Miles" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 4:00 PM
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC -DC converter for regen

> Hi David, I think your concept although innovative is possibly unstable,
> simple series dc is a poorly regulated generator for "Regen" perhaps if
> you
> "Sep-Ex" it during the Regen so control of the field windings can regulate
> and stabilize the output then feed a small separate "Boost" pack during
> Regen and use a readily available DC/DC to transfer charge from the
> "Boost-Pack" to the, Main pack the "Boost Pack" could be any workable
> voltage and smaller in capacity perhaps 60 v @ 2 to 6 kw. So as to be
> priced
> reasonable, it still adds to the total range as the DC/DC transfers over 2
> to 3 times the braking time to transfer the Boost energy into the Main
> Pack.
> Regards,
> Dennis Miles
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 7:25 PM, David Sharpe
> <[email protected]>wrote:
>
>> Does anyone know of a DC -DC converter manufacturer that can do an up
>> converter around 60V to 150V around 10kW so that I can make my series DC
>> regen. There are folk here that do a plug-in Prius kit (Lithium) that
>> works
>> at 48V but "ups" to match the Prius 200V battery pack so the equipment
>> exists. This converter has the wrong voltages & is too small around
>> 3-5kW.
>> David
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Regards,
> *Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
> *www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
> EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
> *
> Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I or (813) 434 - 3884
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Discussion Starter #5
H David,

I don't want to poo-poo your plans but it sounds like a real malarkey
to add regen to your series set up. Wouldn't a separate generator on
a clutch of some sort be easier/more effective? It even puts out a
high enough voltage to be useful directly - you could even connect it
via the charger...?

I have one on a Brigs and Stratton petrol gen-set that is only 4
inches or so thick and about a foot square. It probably does about a
kW but I'd have to check.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk

David Sharpe wrote:

> Thank you for your responses. As an EE I myself I understand the
> issues of
> regen with series motors. Mine is a 9" and no interpoles. My plan
> if I cant
> find ready made equipment is to supply the field with quite high
> currents
> around 200A-300A and convert a semisquare transformerless inverter
> that I
> have from a 50Hz to a 400-500Hz with suitable matching lihjy weight
> transformer thus constructing a DC-DC converter to connect to the
> armature.
> The field will be decoupled from the armature with a contactor. The
> real
> problem with my 144V system is that you cannot generate a high enough
> voltage for a direct connection of the armature, you typically running
> around with 50-80V back emf. The above mentioned power supply will be
> controlled not by varying the field current but by varying the on
> time of
> the inverter. The latter used varied on time to maintain approx
> correct RMS
> volts. Im hopeful that having high field currents will solve or at
> least
> minimise distortion of the NA during regen. D
>
>> On 11/23/2010 11:11 PM, David Sharpe wrote:
>>> I was going to do something like this- applying up to 200A to the
>>> field
>>> then
>>> manipulating the low volts DC produced.
>>
>> OK; that is operating your series motor as a sepex (separately
>> excited)
>> generator. That is possible, but here are the 'danger points'.
>>
>> 1. Interpoles
>>
>> Check to see if your motor has interpoles. Interpoles are a second
>> set
>> of smaller field poles halfway between the main poles, and wired in
>> series with the armature. Interpoles minimize brush arcing when the
>> armature current is reversed (during reverse or regen). Motors
>> intended
>> to also be used as generators have interpoles.
>>
>> But most series motors have no interpoles. Without them, the optimal
>> brush position for minimum arcing changes with armature current. If
>> you
>> optimize brush position for forward driving, arcing gets very bad
>> if you
>> reverse the motor (electrical reverse), or reverse the current
>> (regenerative braking).
>>
>> Without interpoles, your only option is to set the brushes to neutral
>> position, so arcing is equally bad for both motor/generator and
>> forward/reverse operation. This limits the maximum voltage and
>> current
>> you can get.
>>
>> 2. Control
>>
>> A sepex motor adjusts the field current to control the armature
>> voltage
>> (and thus the armature current). But armature voltage is also a
>> function
>> of RPM. If you apply a fixed field current to a series motor, then
>> its
>> armature voltage is directly proportional to RPM. 1000 RPM = 10v,
>> 2000
>> RPM = 20v, 3000 RPM = 30v, etc.
>>
>> So, if you connect the armature directly to your batteries, the fixed
>> battery voltage forces the motor to run at a specific RPM. For
>> example,
>> connecting a 36v pack to this motor forces it to run at 3600 RPM. It
>> will either motor (draw current from the battery) to accelerate to
>> this
>> speed, or regen (charge the battery) to hold the RPM down to this
>> speed.
>> The EV behaves like you have a cruise control set, holding the same
>> speed whether you go up or down hills.
>>
>> To make this practical, you have to measure armature current;
>> otherwise,
>> it heads for *infinity* in a mad attempt to instantly reach that 3600
>> RPM. Current would get so high that something will fail. Therefore,
>> you
>> need to limit or control the field current to keep the armature
>> current
>> within safe limits.
>>
>> To change your speed, you also have to adjust your field current.
>> Basically, this scheme thus requires a very high currrent, very low
>> voltage adjustable power supply for the field.
>>
>> Does this help?
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
>> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
>> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
>> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
>> Cohen
>>
>>





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Discussion Starter #6
David Sharpe wrote:
> Thank you for your responses. As an EE I myself I understand the
> issues of regen with series motors. Mine is a 9" and no interpoles.

OK. Then you should plan to set your motor's brushes to neutral. This
will worsen arcing during motoring, but allow higher regen voltages and
currents.

With the brushes advanced, only mild amounts of regen are practical.

> My plan... is to supply the field with quite high currents around
> 200A-300A

Do you have a plan for providing this current? You'll need 200-300a at
just 2-3 volts. One possible source is your PWM motor controller.

> and convert a semisquare transformerless inverter that I have from a
> 50Hz to a 400-500Hz with suitable matching light weight transformer
> thus constructing a DC-DC converter to connect to the armature.

At 10kw, even a 400hz transformer is pretty big. You also don't need
isolation. This is why a boost converter is the more common way to do
this. Then you just need a big inductor; not a transformer.

Another possibility is to reconnect your 144v pack for some lower
voltage with contactors; 72v or 36v. This gets the voltage down.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Discussion Starter #7
It is all very well to say I need a boost converter but I dont know how to
build or buy one whereas I do have a number of 10kVA transformerless 250V DC
to 240VAC inverters that I could mod to make a power supply -additional
windings on a toroid could be wound to do a centre tap DC power supply using
Shotky diodes for the field. The inverter uses giant bipolar blocks but
could be run at a few kHZ I hope to get the magnetics lighter. David S

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 9:26 AM
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC -DC converter for regen

> David Sharpe wrote:
>> Thank you for your responses. As an EE I myself I understand the
>> issues of regen with series motors. Mine is a 9" and no interpoles.
>
> OK. Then you should plan to set your motor's brushes to neutral. This
> will worsen arcing during motoring, but allow higher regen voltages and
> currents.
>
> With the brushes advanced, only mild amounts of regen are practical.
>
>> My plan... is to supply the field with quite high currents around
>> 200A-300A
>
> Do you have a plan for providing this current? You'll need 200-300a at
> just 2-3 volts. One possible source is your PWM motor controller.
>
>> and convert a semisquare transformerless inverter that I have from a
>> 50Hz to a 400-500Hz with suitable matching light weight transformer
>> thus constructing a DC-DC converter to connect to the armature.
>
> At 10kw, even a 400hz transformer is pretty big. You also don't need
> isolation. This is why a boost converter is the more common way to do
> this. Then you just need a big inductor; not a transformer.
>
> Another possibility is to reconnect your 144v pack for some lower
> voltage with contactors; 72v or 36v. This gets the voltage down.
>
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Discussion Starter #8
Look at www.belktronix.com - he can build one to order for you!


Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Sharpe" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC -DC converter for regen


> It is all very well to say I need a boost converter but I dont know how to
> build or buy one whereas I do have a number of 10kVA transformerless 250V
> DC
> to 240VAC inverters that I could mod to make a power supply -additional
> windings on a toroid could be wound to do a centre tap DC power supply
> using
> Shotky diodes for the field. The inverter uses giant bipolar blocks but
> could be run at a few kHZ I hope to get the magnetics lighter. David S
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 9:26 AM
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC -DC converter for regen
>
>> David Sharpe wrote:
>>> Thank you for your responses. As an EE I myself I understand the
>>> issues of regen with series motors. Mine is a 9" and no interpoles.
>>
>> OK. Then you should plan to set your motor's brushes to neutral. This
>> will worsen arcing during motoring, but allow higher regen voltages and
>> currents.
>>
>> With the brushes advanced, only mild amounts of regen are practical.
>>
>>> My plan... is to supply the field with quite high currents around
>>> 200A-300A
>>
>> Do you have a plan for providing this current? You'll need 200-300a at
>> just 2-3 volts. One possible source is your PWM motor controller.
>>
>>> and convert a semisquare transformerless inverter that I have from a
>>> 50Hz to a 400-500Hz with suitable matching light weight transformer
>>> thus constructing a DC-DC converter to connect to the armature.
>>
>> At 10kw, even a 400hz transformer is pretty big. You also don't need
>> isolation. This is why a boost converter is the more common way to do
>> this. Then you just need a big inductor; not a transformer.
>>
>> Another possibility is to reconnect your 144v pack for some lower
>> voltage with contactors; 72v or 36v. This gets the voltage down.
>>
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
>> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
>> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
>> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Discussion Starter #9
David Sharpe <[email protected]> wrote:
> It is all very well to say I need a boost converter but I dont know how to
> build or buy one whereas I do have a number of 10kVA transformerless 250V DC
> to 240VAC inverters that I could mod to make a power supply -additional
> windings on a toroid could be wound to do a centre tap DC power supply using
> Shotky diodes for the field. The inverter uses giant bipolar blocks but
> could be run at a few kHZ I hope to get the magnetics lighter.

It should be far easier to build a current regulated boost converter
(using the motor as the inductor) than what you are suggesting, IMHO.
Then you don't need to supply the field with current, and it stands a
chance of working in a usable fashion.

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Discussion Starter #10
Maybe this is a good chance to learn about it, others on the list have done
so, lots of help on this list.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of David Sharpe
Sent: Friday, 26 November 2010 6:44 p.m.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC -DC converter for regen

It is all very well to say I need a boost converter but I dont know how to
build or buy one whereas I do have a number of 10kVA transformerless 250V DC

to 240VAC inverters that I could mod to make a power supply -additional
windings on a toroid could be wound to do a centre tap DC power supply using

Shotky diodes for the field. The inverter uses giant bipolar blocks but
could be run at a few kHZ I hope to get the magnetics lighter. David S

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 9:26 AM
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC -DC converter for regen

> David Sharpe wrote:
>> Thank you for your responses. As an EE I myself I understand the
>> issues of regen with series motors. Mine is a 9" and no interpoles.
>
> OK. Then you should plan to set your motor's brushes to neutral. This
> will worsen arcing during motoring, but allow higher regen voltages and
> currents.
>
> With the brushes advanced, only mild amounts of regen are practical.
>
>> My plan... is to supply the field with quite high currents around
>> 200A-300A
>
> Do you have a plan for providing this current? You'll need 200-300a at
> just 2-3 volts. One possible source is your PWM motor controller.
>
>> and convert a semisquare transformerless inverter that I have from a
>> 50Hz to a 400-500Hz with suitable matching light weight transformer
>> thus constructing a DC-DC converter to connect to the armature.
>
> At 10kw, even a 400hz transformer is pretty big. You also don't need
> isolation. This is why a boost converter is the more common way to do
> this. Then you just need a big inductor; not a transformer.
>
> Another possibility is to reconnect your 144v pack for some lower
> voltage with contactors; 72v or 36v. This gets the voltage down.
>
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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