[EVDL List]

Your AH load testing will be optimistic realtive to the actual loading done
by driving which will have much higher currents than 6 oe 7 amps. My
OdysseyPC1500 nominally rated at 55AH derated to 16AH if discharged in 2
minutes. The 30 minute or 85A laod derates the battery to 42AH. me

SLPinfo.org <[email protected]> wrote:

> HI folks,
>
> I've been struggling with how to determine how much life is left in my AGM
> batteries. The classic test that a battery shop does is a "load test", but
> I had heard that such a test was not very meaningful for deep cycle
> batteries. Some test of AH capacity needs to be done. But I was never
> sure
> how to do it until recently. Now that I have a method, I've tested all all
> the batteries I have (both the ones I was using and a group of used ones I
> purchased recently) and thought you might like to see the numbers.
>
> First I did a standard load test on all of them as determined in my Load
> Tester manual (3X the AH rating (330 Amps in this case) for 15 seconds)
> using the device below:
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/500-amp-carbon-pile-load-tester-91129.html
>
> I then recharged each battery fully with my 12V smart charger
>
> http://www.battery-rechargeable-charger.com/vector-VEC1095A-car-battery-charger.htmlusing
> the AGM profile.
>
> I followed that by doing an AH capacity test using the procedure shown
> here:
>
> http://www.instructables.com/id/AmpHourTest/
>
> I bought a 400W inverter at Home Depot, bought an old plug in mechanical
> clock for $5 on Ebay, and used a 75W incandesent bulb which meant the load
> was at least 6.25 amps. I'm not sure how much current the old clock was
> drawing (probably not much). Even if the clock drew noticable current,
> that
> would mean a higher total draw and thus the AH results would be somewhat
> better than I found. But those AH values here are "at least" that much.
>
> You can argue with the specifics of these procedures - they may not be the
> most accurate way to do this, BUT the numbers are "RELATIVELY VALID" since
> I
> did the same thing to all the batteries both times.
>
> The batteries are 12V AGMs (110 AH rated)
> http://www.mrsolar.com/pdf/universal_battery/UB121100.pdf They are sealed
> so doing specific gravity testing of the acid is NOT possible and I
> understand that would only get me SOC anyway and not AH capacity.
>
> Here's what I found: .
>
> Group 1: Pack I was using - they were dying and I was starting to replace
> some, but I basically killed them by pushing them well below 20% several
> times (yes, David I committed battricide). I had to be towed home a couple
> of times and the last time my wife pushed my home the last mile with our
> Honda Civic. Have not driven the car since then. The very small AH
> numbers
> for this group don't really surprise me under the circumstances. The car
> sat
> for a week or so, but I had done a full charge of the pack as soon as I had
> gotten home. Then a few days before I did the testing I did a 3 hour
> equalization charge using my 120V Quick Charge Select-A-Charge (110V input;
> 10 Amp max). All were resting at about 13.2-13.3V each before the tests.
>
> Cycles on the battery Load test voltage AH capacity
> 60 ** 10.2V 33
> 60 ** 10.0V 16
> 120 10.6V 3
> 350 10.6V 3
> 120 10.7V 3
> 350 10.8V 5
> 60 ** 9.2V 4
> 350 9.6V 3
> 10 ** 9.8V 12
> 350 10.4V 3
>
>
> Group 2: Others (not yet used by me). I had charged them all about a week
> earlier one at a time using my 12V smart charger. They were resting about
> about 13.0-13.1V each. before the tests.
>
> Cycles on the battery Load test voltage AH capacity
> ** 9.0V 39
> ** 8.9V 53
> ** 9.4V 51
> ** 9.4V 47
> ** 9.6V 51
> ** 9.1V 54
> ** 9.2V 50
> ** 10.0V 57
> ** 9.6V 53
> ** 9.6V 53
> ** 8.8V 51
>
>
> ** had previously been used as part of a UPS standy system, but I really
> don't know how much use they've had (i.e., how hard they were pushed or how
> often they were cycled).
>
> It's hard to argue with these data. Bottom line is that CLEARLY THERE IS
> NO
> RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE TWO SETS OF FINDINGS. There doesn't seem to be
> much
> correlation between load test results and AH capacity testing. This may
> not
> be news to some of you but it was to me. I'm glad I went to the trouble and
> I now have the ability to test AH capacity.
>
> Given what we want to use the batteries for (deep cycling), and what I know
> about the history of these batteries, I'm much more inclined to trust the
> AH
> capacity numbers. My sense is that doing a conventional load test MAY tell
> you if a battery is really bad (it didn't here; all of the above voltages
> were a "pass" on the load tester), but it doesn't seem to really tell you
> if
> a deep cycle battery is any good for deep cycling.
>
> I now plan to install the 10 best of the "others" shortly (those with 47-57
> AH still in them) and see how they do.
>
>
> Peter Flipsen Jr
> Meridian, ID
> http://www.evalbum.com/1974
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[EVDL List]

Your conclusions about needing to test ahrs are solid, but if you are trying to determine if these are useful still as traction batteries then you need to test at much higher then 6-7 amps. They should be tested at something closer to how they are being used. For instance, when I test my batteries I usually test them at 100 - 120 amps. You can still do this with the same basic type of setup you have, you just need a larger inverter, and a larger load. A toaster oven or some other high wattage device will do, just make sure that it will not cycle on and off. For instance with a toaster oven set it to it's highest setting and leave the door open.

damon

> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 13:32:04 -0700
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [EVDL] Deep cycle battery testing: load test vs. AH capacity test
>
> HI folks,
>
> I've been struggling with how to determine how much life is left in my AGM
> batteries. The classic test that a battery shop does is a "load test", but
> I had heard that such a test was not very meaningful for deep cycle
> batteries. Some test of AH capacity needs to be done. But I was never sure
> how to do it until recently. Now that I have a method, I've tested all all
> the batteries I have (both the ones I was using and a group of used ones I
> purchased recently) and thought you might like to see the numbers.
>
> First I did a standard load test on all of them as determined in my Load
> Tester manual (3X the AH rating (330 Amps in this case) for 15 seconds)
> using the device below:
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/500-amp-carbon-pile-load-tester-91129.html
>
> I then recharged each battery fully with my 12V smart charger
> http://www.battery-rechargeable-charger.com/vector-VEC1095A-car-battery-charger.htmlusing
> the AGM profile.
>
> I followed that by doing an AH capacity test using the procedure shown here:
>
> http://www.instructables.com/id/AmpHourTest/
>
> I bought a 400W inverter at Home Depot, bought an old plug in mechanical
> clock for $5 on Ebay, and used a 75W incandesent bulb which meant the load
> was at least 6.25 amps. I'm not sure how much current the old clock was
> drawing (probably not much). Even if the clock drew noticable current, that
> would mean a higher total draw and thus the AH results would be somewhat
> better than I found. But those AH values here are "at least" that much.
>
> You can argue with the specifics of these procedures - they may not be the
> most accurate way to do this, BUT the numbers are "RELATIVELY VALID" since I
> did the same thing to all the batteries both times.
>
> The batteries are 12V AGMs (110 AH rated)
> http://www.mrsolar.com/pdf/universal_battery/UB121100.pdf They are sealed
> so doing specific gravity testing of the acid is NOT possible and I
> understand that would only get me SOC anyway and not AH capacity.
>
> Here's what I found: .
>
> Group 1: Pack I was using - they were dying and I was starting to replace
> some, but I basically killed them by pushing them well below 20% several
> times (yes, David I committed battricide). I had to be towed home a couple
> of times and the last time my wife pushed my home the last mile with our
> Honda Civic. Have not driven the car since then. The very small AH numbers
> for this group don't really surprise me under the circumstances. The car sat
> for a week or so, but I had done a full charge of the pack as soon as I had
> gotten home. Then a few days before I did the testing I did a 3 hour
> equalization charge using my 120V Quick Charge Select-A-Charge (110V input;
> 10 Amp max). All were resting at about 13.2-13.3V each before the tests.
>
> Cycles on the battery Load test voltage AH capacity
> 60 ** 10.2V 33
> 60 ** 10.0V 16
> 120 10.6V 3
> 350 10.6V 3
> 120 10.7V 3
> 350 10.8V 5
> 60 ** 9.2V 4
> 350 9.6V 3
> 10 ** 9.8V 12
> 350 10.4V 3
>
>
> Group 2: Others (not yet used by me). I had charged them all about a week
> earlier one at a time using my 12V smart charger. They were resting about
> about 13.0-13.1V each. before the tests.
>
> Cycles on the battery Load test voltage AH capacity
> ** 9.0V 39
> ** 8.9V 53
> ** 9.4V 51
> ** 9.4V 47
> ** 9.6V 51
> ** 9.1V 54
> ** 9.2V 50
> ** 10.0V 57
> ** 9.6V 53
> ** 9.6V 53
> ** 8.8V 51
>
>
> ** had previously been used as part of a UPS standy system, but I really
> don't know how much use they've had (i.e., how hard they were pushed or how
> often they were cycled).
>
> It's hard to argue with these data. Bottom line is that CLEARLY THERE IS NO
> RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE TWO SETS OF FINDINGS. There doesn't seem to be much
> correlation between load test results and AH capacity testing. This may not
> be news to some of you but it was to me. I'm glad I went to the trouble and
> I now have the ability to test AH capacity.
>
> Given what we want to use the batteries for (deep cycling), and what I know
> about the history of these batteries, I'm much more inclined to trust the AH
> capacity numbers. My sense is that doing a conventional load test MAY tell
> you if a battery is really bad (it didn't here; all of the above voltages
> were a "pass" on the load tester), but it doesn't seem to really tell you if
> a deep cycle battery is any good for deep cycling.
>
> I now plan to install the 10 best of the "others" shortly (those with 47-57
> AH still in them) and see how they do.
>
>
> Peter Flipsen Jr
> Meridian, ID
> http://www.evalbum.com/1974
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[EVDL List]

Damon,

That's certainly very true, BUT I now have a "relative" idea of which
batteries I have are the strongest. That was my goal. What I did was
affordable for me (I don't own a toaster oven and a 1500W inverter is 3X the
cost of the 400W one I bought). I will test the batteries at 100-120 amps -
in the car! I'll test it out slowly to see what range I can get. I can't
afford new batteries at the moment, but if I can squeeze 6-7 miles out these
I may be able to use them for a while longer. My employer is currently
considering my request to plug in at work which is 5 miles from home.

- Peter
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[EVDL List]

Bill,

Actually I find that with these AGMs accelaration and top speed drops like a
stone once I pass 50% DOD. When they were new I was trying to keep it at
50% but lately, because of a slightly longer commute it's been 75-80% most
of the time. And some times deeper. Although you say 350 cycles is good,
it's about half of what I was hoping for. Now that I'm in flatter terrain
I'm hoping to switch to Gels once I can afford them but may go back to
floodies if I can't.

Interesting points on dealing with the AGMs and water. Certainly like the
idea in principle. Not quite sure if I'm that brave to try such a thing.
Will give it some though. I assume RTV is some kind of sealant.

My only charging equipment is my 12V Smartcharger and my select a charge.
Not sure either will allow me to do the conditioning charge you suggest.
Can't afford more equipment.

- Peter

Bill Dube <[email protected]> wrote:

> You don't say the DOD on the cycles you put on your AGMs. It makes a
> huge difference. 350 cycles is pretty good if you are doing 80% (or more)
> DOD.
>
> AGMs die in several different ways:
>
> 1) They typically die from sulphation on the negative plate.
> 2) They often die from water loss.
> 3) They rarely die from grid corrosion (but this is what often kills
> them when left forever on "float" in a UPS.)
>
>
> If they are "dead," there are a couple of things to try.
>
> 1) Charge the battery. Pry off the glued-on caps, or drill small
> holes, and squirt in distilled water with a syringe. Squirt some in.
> Wait a few minutes. Attempt to draw some back out. Repeat until you
> can draw some back out. Seal up the small holes with RTV or melt the
> hole closed with a soldering iron.
>
> 2) You can "condition charge" them. Charge to ~14.8 volts. Hold at
> ~14.8 until the current tapers to less than an amp, then charge at
> constant current of 4% of capacity for two hours. (Let the voltage
> run wild during the CC charge. It can go over 16 volts.) Discharge
> with your cycler. Note the capacity. Repeat until you see no increase
> in capacity.
>
> If they are "dead," you have nothing to lose.
>
> If you don't have a clever charger that automatically does a timed CC
> finish charge each cycle, then do the conditioning charge manually
> about once per week.
>
> Bill D.
>
>
>
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[EVDL List]

You can use the carbon pile tester for a 100 A test -- I have done it a bunch of
times -- just tip it back a bit and point a fan at the bottom to prevent
overheat. Wear earplugs to survive the annoying 15 second alarm.




________________________________
From: damon henry <[email protected]>
To: EV List <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, November 9, 2010 2:07:54 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Deep cycle battery testing: load test vs. AH capacity test


Your conclusions about needing to test ahrs are solid, but if you are trying to
determine if these are useful still as traction batteries then you need to test
at much higher then 6-7 amps. They should be tested at something closer to how
they are being used. For instance, when I test my batteries I usually test them
at 100 - 120 amps. You can still do this with the same basic type of setup you
have, you just need a larger inverter, and a larger load. A toaster oven or
some other high wattage device will do, just make sure that it will not cycle on
and off. For instance with a toaster oven set it to it's highest setting and
leave the door open.



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[EVDL List]

If the capacity is too low for your needs, then you have nothing to lose.

RTV is the old name for what folks now call "silicone sealant".

If you aren't doing some sort of multi-step charging on a routine
basis, then you will not get the full cycle life out of AGMs. You
must over-charge in a controlled manner on a regular basis in deep
cycle use to clean off the sulphation on the negative plates.

If you think about it, the only way you are going to get more amp-hrs
out is if you manage to cram those amp-hrs back into the battery.

There are no "gel" batteries any more. Not really. Gel batteries came
out before AGMs were invented, and folks continue to incorrectly
apply the name to all non-flooded lead-acid batteries.


At 02:46 PM 11/9/2010, you wrote:
>Bill,
>
>Actually I find that with these AGMs accelaration and top speed drops like a
>stone once I pass 50% DOD. When they were new I was trying to keep it at
>50% but lately, because of a slightly longer commute it's been 75-80% most
>of the time. And some times deeper. Although you say 350 cycles is good,
>it's about half of what I was hoping for. Now that I'm in flatter terrain
>I'm hoping to switch to Gels once I can afford them but may go back to
>floodies if I can't.
>
>Interesting points on dealing with the AGMs and water. Certainly like the
>idea in principle. Not quite sure if I'm that brave to try such a thing.
>Will give it some though. I assume RTV is some kind of sealant.
>
>My only charging equipment is my 12V Smartcharger and my select a charge.
>Not sure either will allow me to do the conditioning charge you suggest.
>Can't afford more equipment.
>
>- Peter
>
>

Bill Dube <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > You don't say the DOD on the cycles you put on your AGMs. It makes a
> > huge difference. 350 cycles is pretty good if you are doing 80% (or more)
> > DOD.
> >
> > AGMs die in several different ways:
> >
> > 1) They typically die from sulphation on the negative plate.
> > 2) They often die from water loss.
> > 3) They rarely die from grid corrosion (but this is what often kills
> > them when left forever on "float" in a UPS.)
> >
> >
> > If they are "dead," there are a couple of things to try.
> >
> > 1) Charge the battery. Pry off the glued-on caps, or drill small
> > holes, and squirt in distilled water with a syringe. Squirt some in.
> > Wait a few minutes. Attempt to draw some back out. Repeat until you
> > can draw some back out. Seal up the small holes with RTV or melt the
> > hole closed with a soldering iron.
> >
> > 2) You can "condition charge" them. Charge to ~14.8 volts. Hold at
> > ~14.8 until the current tapers to less than an amp, then charge at
> > constant current of 4% of capacity for two hours. (Let the voltage
> > run wild during the CC charge. It can go over 16 volts.) Discharge
> > with your cycler. Note the capacity. Repeat until you see no increase
> > in capacity.
> >
> > If they are "dead," you have nothing to lose.
> >
> > If you don't have a clever charger that automatically does a timed CC
> > finish charge each cycle, then do the conditioning charge manually
> > about once per week.
> >
> > Bill D.
> >
> >
> >
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[EVDL List]

On 9 Nov 2010 at 15:45, Bill Dube wrote:

> There are no "gel" batteries any more.

I wouldn't say that! East Penn (Deka) still makes gel batteries in a wide
range of sizes, from U1 to group 31 and also in a 6v golf car size (8G
series). They're very high quality batteries, but not too well suited to
the high currents usually required in road EVs of typical weight operating
under around 200 volts.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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[EVDL List]

On 9 Nov 2010 at 13:32, SLPinfo.org wrote:

> The batteries are 12V AGMs (110 AH rated)
> http://www.mrsolar.com/pdf/universal_battery/UB121100.pdf

This isn't directly related to your question, but part of your problem with
the pack might be the batteries themselves. Have a look through the list
archives (evdl.org/archive), searching for "Universal Battery." Anecdotal
evidence isn't conclusive, of course, but a few people have posted fairly
negative experiences with these low-cost, Chinese-made AGM "Universal" brand
batteries.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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[EVDL List]

On 9 Nov 2010 at 16:30, Bob Sisson wrote:

> You can GET a RV Space heater that works DIRECTLY on 12V
>
> http://www.amazon.com/RoadPro-RPSL-681-Direct-Hook-Up-Ceramic/dp/B0013TM0Z0

According to the Amazon listing, that heater is rated for only 15 amps (180
watts). That's not too much more of a load than he has now - and not much
heat, either.

Buy 7 or 8 of them, and you might have something useful. ;-)

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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[EVDL List]

Might be simpler to buy 20 each 60 watt 12 volt RV light bulbs, mounting 20
porcelain sockets on a panel and make a load bank that way, But I always
liked the coat hanger steel wire in the five gallon metal bucket as a
"Bad-Boy" load, just hook it up with "Jumper Cables" from your old ICE..
Regards,
Dennis Miles
================================================================

EVDL Administrator <[email protected]>wrote:

> On 9 Nov 2010 at 16:30, Bob Sisson wrote:
>
> > You can GET a RV Space heater that works DIRECTLY on 12V
> >
> >
> http://www.amazon.com/RoadPro-RPSL-681-Direct-Hook-Up-Ceramic/dp/B0013TM0Z0
>
> According to the Amazon listing, that heater is rated for only 15 amps (180
> watts). That's not too much more of a load than he has now - and not much
> heat, either.
>
> Buy 7 or 8 of them, and you might have something useful. ;-)
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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--
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I or (813) 434 - 3884 (I think word phone
numbers can be fun and good mnemonics aid memory.)
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[EVDL List]

I've been using other peoples old AGM's and bringing them back from
the dead ever since I sold my lawn business and started doing EV's
full time , No money any more for new batteries and don't do that much
driving . What I found with the electric mower I used was that
charging them at very hi amp seems to make them happy if done right .
I now discharge a bank into another back with a e meter in line ,
dumping 10 batteries into 8 is a good set up ,, then charge 2 of the
discharged 10 and hook them to up to the now charged 8 and re charge
the newly discharged one Your e meter will tell you how many ah you
pulled out and by taking voltage readings you can weed out the bad one
. I do this a few time and I'll also have a few batteries on the side
that I can throw some jumper wire one if they get too low or high ..
so you don't need a big load and doing your load test is an
opportunity to cycle the other batteries. As I am doing the test, I
will watch the EMeter ah's and when a battery in the group falls to
10.5 V.. I 'll write down the ah that have been taken out of him on
the battery and then hook another battery to him in parallel so as no
to over stress him. This way keeping the chain going.

Steve Clunn
--
Tomorrows Ride TODAY !
Visit our shop web page at: www.Greenshedconversions.com

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[EVDL List]

Every safety bone in my body is going "Eeek!" at the bucket suggestion. Be
sure to stand back and not touch anything metal. I guess you could go for
one of those old "Worm-getters" too. I think they're hard to find now
though. The consumer safety people weren't real big on those either.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Dennis Miles
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 3:24 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Deep cycle battery testing: load test vs. AH capacity
test

Might be simpler to buy 20 each 60 watt 12 volt RV light bulbs, mounting 20
porcelain sockets on a panel and make a load bank that way, But I always
liked the coat hanger steel wire in the five gallon metal bucket as a
"Bad-Boy" load, just hook it up with "Jumper Cables" from your old ICE..
Regards,
Dennis Miles


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[EVDL List]

For several years I've been using a homebrew dummy load. I made it with a
heating element from a derelict heat pump. I split the element in the
middle and paralleled the halves, since my operating voltage is lower than
the heat pump's rated 240v. It pulls a little over 100A at 144 volts.

As for a housing, some folks understandably find it ... amusing. I had an
old large steel rural mailbox that the door had broken off of. I cut a hole
in the back of it and bolted on a fan from a derelict range hood, then cut a
hole in the side and bolted in the ceramic base of the heating element. A
spare Kilovac contactor and some 1/0 cable with lugs rounds out the lashup.
Works great for finding flaky modules in a pack, and makes the garage a
little more toasty in the winter.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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[EVDL List]

Just to follow-up. You guys have some interesting ideas for capacity
testing at higher amps but most of them sound more dangerous than I'm
prepared to try. But then after one minor but (for me) scary plasma event
I'm try to be pretty conservative about what I try. I'm also not sure I'm
ready to try adding water to the non-functioning AGMs I have.

That said, my "real world" test using the 'best' of my batteries in the car
turned out fairly well. After installing them I did a couple of short trips
and now have done two trips of about 9.5 miles (stopping about 1/2 mile from
work and walking the rest of the way; didn't want to push it and get
stranded). I was averaging about 30 mph and still had about 75% SOC at the
end. The car still seemed to have some "zip" at the end which is a nice
change from the last trips I had where I either barely crawled home at 10
mph or had to be towed.

All in all I'd call my battery measurement test successful! I now have a
rough and dirty way to test battery capacity in future.

Hopefully this pack can last for at least a little while, at least until I
can afford a new pack.

- Peter Flipsen Jr
http://www.evalbum.com/1974
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