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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
(This is a bit long, sorry; my technical ? is in the last paragraph.)

With the uproar over the recent SRJC EV fire, it seems like I hear very
little about detecting and stopping a charging smoke/fire. Maybe it
isn't sexy, I don't know, but in my 10-15 years of nearly continuous
reading of the List, it's seems rarely talked about.

Playing devil's advocate ;^>: while gasoline refueling deals with a
very flammable substance, it is done quickly and under supervision, ie.
someone is watching all the time. You're basically filling a can with a
liquid, which is pretty darned simple. In contrast, the EV
battery-charging process seems a heck of a lot more complicated. You've
got charger this, BMS that, and batteries too. Drags on and on, hour
after hour. Unattended for most of the time.

EV-charging smoke and fire events are nothing new. OEM vehicles can
partake too. I have some recollection of hearing of an EV1 fire or two,
ostensibly because the charging port overheated. More recently, a GEM
fire burnt up the side of a building down in SF's Presidio. Then
reading the SRJC thread, I saw mention of an EV fire in Petaluma,
presumably during charging (but it didn't say as I recall), that I
hadn't heard about. And now the SRJC fire (how it happened isn't apparent).

There's always something that can go wrong and cause a charging smoke
event. Your charger's bouncing down the road along with the rest of the
car, along with your BMS. Batteries... Maybe that last pothole cracked
a circuit board somewhere, so your BMS now cooks your (lithium)
batteries. A surge/sag comes down the powerline and scrambles your
electronics. A charging port/connector not inserted quite right,
leading to a high-resistance connection. A little oxidation in a
connection starts the vicious cycle of heat and more oxidation, and on
it goes till it gets hot enough to... How many other ways can something
go wrong? It all has to work, no screwups allowed!

When I was getting into EVs back in the early and mid-90s, one of my
concerns was having a fire during charging, like overnight when I'm
snoozing. I remember bringing this up during a NBEAA meeting(yes, the
same one associated with this SRJC car, but almost all different
people). I asked the question of the speaker. Out the corner of my
eye, I caught site of one of the chapter officers giving me the "shoosh"
signal. Let's sweep it under the rug, shall we? Not good enough!

I've been fortunate. I've never had a smoke event, except the one time
when I first had my EV, I was at the garage of the friend/EV'er who had
helped me build my car, and I had the K&W BC-20 cranked up for some
time. I went to unplug it, and smoke came pouring out of the female
connector at the charge "port" (basically a 5-15 connector). I still
laugh to this day when I remember Preston leaping over to the other end
of the cord to unplug it. But other than that, no smoke. I'm very
careful, and I check the car (sniffer is on alert, feel
charger/connections/cordends, everything sound right and acting ok?)
after it's been charging for awhile before I turn in for the night.

All that said, I do have a standard smoke detector on the shelf that I
bought for experimenting with to install in the car. My goal is not to
have a screeching (perhaps false alarm) smoke detector. I'm thinking
something more that will just shut the charging process off via a relay,
and more recently, send an alert to the computer display up in the apt
(or wherever). I planned on partially dissecting the charger, tossing
the speaker or whatever it is that makes that horrendous noise, and see
if I can drive a relay off of that speaker connection. One what
would've been a speaker chirp would trip the otherwise-closed relay.
Once I've got the relay working, I can do what I want. Anyone done this
before, or am I barking up the wrong tree trying to run off the speaker
wires? It shouldn't be too hard to just try it out, but I'd have to
track down a suitable test relay (suggestions?). I'd put one smoke
detector in the back near the charger, and perhaps one up under the hood
somewhere to keep track of the numerous fuses and connections up there.
There's also the issue of a trip when the FLAs reach the gassing
point, but whether the gassing is strong enough to cause a trip is
probably not the case. Also, I understand ICE exhaust can set off smoke
detectors.

No smoke, thankyou,
Chuck

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Joined
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
A smoke detector sounds like a great idea. One question, does a lithium battery
smoke when it burns? You might have to be well into the fire before it gets
smokey enough to trip the smoke detector. Maybe there is something you can smear
on the BMS boards / batteries / cabling that'll smoke when it gets too hot?




________________________________
From: Chuck Hursch <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, March 22, 2011 3:56:03 PM
Subject: [EVDL] detecting the smoke before it gets out of hand during charging
(long)

(This is a bit long, sorry; my technical ? is in the last paragraph.)

With the uproar over the recent SRJC EV fire, it seems like I hear very
little about detecting and stopping a charging smoke/fire. Maybe it
isn't sexy, I don't know, but in my 10-15 years of nearly continuous
reading of the List, it's seems rarely talked about.

Playing devil's advocate ;^>: while gasoline refueling deals with a
very flammable substance, it is done quickly and under supervision, ie.
someone is watching all the time. You're basically filling a can with a
liquid, which is pretty darned simple. In contrast, the EV
battery-charging process seems a heck of a lot more complicated. You've
got charger this, BMS that, and batteries too. Drags on and on, hour
after hour. Unattended for most of the time.

EV-charging smoke and fire events are nothing new. OEM vehicles can
partake too. I have some recollection of hearing of an EV1 fire or two,
ostensibly because the charging port overheated. More recently, a GEM
fire burnt up the side of a building down in SF's Presidio. Then
reading the SRJC thread, I saw mention of an EV fire in Petaluma,
presumably during charging (but it didn't say as I recall), that I
hadn't heard about. And now the SRJC fire (how it happened isn't apparent).

There's always something that can go wrong and cause a charging smoke
event. Your charger's bouncing down the road along with the rest of the
car, along with your BMS. Batteries... Maybe that last pothole cracked
a circuit board somewhere, so your BMS now cooks your (lithium)
batteries. A surge/sag comes down the powerline and scrambles your
electronics. A charging port/connector not inserted quite right,
leading to a high-resistance connection. A little oxidation in a
connection starts the vicious cycle of heat and more oxidation, and on
it goes till it gets hot enough to... How many other ways can something
go wrong? It all has to work, no screwups allowed!

When I was getting into EVs back in the early and mid-90s, one of my
concerns was having a fire during charging, like overnight when I'm
snoozing. I remember bringing this up during a NBEAA meeting(yes, the
same one associated with this SRJC car, but almost all different
people). I asked the question of the speaker. Out the corner of my
eye, I caught site of one of the chapter officers giving me the "shoosh"
signal. Let's sweep it under the rug, shall we? Not good enough!

I've been fortunate. I've never had a smoke event, except the one time
when I first had my EV, I was at the garage of the friend/EV'er who had
helped me build my car, and I had the K&W BC-20 cranked up for some
time. I went to unplug it, and smoke came pouring out of the female
connector at the charge "port" (basically a 5-15 connector). I still
laugh to this day when I remember Preston leaping over to the other end
of the cord to unplug it. But other than that, no smoke. I'm very
careful, and I check the car (sniffer is on alert, feel
charger/connections/cordends, everything sound right and acting ok?)
after it's been charging for awhile before I turn in for the night.

All that said, I do have a standard smoke detector on the shelf that I
bought for experimenting with to install in the car. My goal is not to
have a screeching (perhaps false alarm) smoke detector. I'm thinking
something more that will just shut the charging process off via a relay,
and more recently, send an alert to the computer display up in the apt
(or wherever). I planned on partially dissecting the charger, tossing
the speaker or whatever it is that makes that horrendous noise, and see
if I can drive a relay off of that speaker connection. One what
would've been a speaker chirp would trip the otherwise-closed relay.
Once I've got the relay working, I can do what I want. Anyone done this
before, or am I barking up the wrong tree trying to run off the speaker
wires? It shouldn't be too hard to just try it out, but I'd have to
track down a suitable test relay (suggestions?). I'd put one smoke
detector in the back near the charger, and perhaps one up under the hood
somewhere to keep track of the numerous fuses and connections up there.
There's also the issue of a trip when the FLAs reach the gassing
point, but whether the gassing is strong enough to cause a trip is
probably not the case. Also, I understand ICE exhaust can set off smoke
detectors.

No smoke, thankyou,



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| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Discussion Starter #3
Why not heat sensors. Stop for potential fires and overcharge.

Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless

-----Original message-----
From: David Dymaxion <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, Mar 23, 2011 00:48:06 GMT+00:00
Subject: Re: [EVDL] detecting the smoke before it gets out of hand during
charging (long)

A smoke detector sounds like a great idea. One question, does a lithium
battery
smoke when it burns? You might have to be well into the fire before it gets
smokey enough to trip the smoke detector. Maybe there is something you can
smear
on the BMS boards / batteries / cabling that'll smoke when it gets too hot?




________________________________
From: Chuck Hursch <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, March 22, 2011 3:56:03 PM
Subject: [EVDL] detecting the smoke before it gets out of hand during
charging
(long)

(This is a bit long, sorry; my technical ? is in the last paragraph.)

With the uproar over the recent SRJC EV fire, it seems like I hear very
little about detecting and stopping a charging smoke/fire. Maybe it
isn't sexy, I don't know, but in my 10-15 years of nearly continuous
reading of the List, it's seems rarely talked about.

Playing devil's advocate ;^>: while gasoline refueling deals with a
very flammable substance, it is done quickly and under supervision, ie.
someone is watching all the time. You're basically filling a can with a
liquid, which is pretty darned simple. In contrast, the EV
battery-charging process seems a heck of a lot more complicated. You've
got charger this, BMS that, and batteries too. Drags on and on, hour
after hour. Unattended for most of the time.

EV-charging smoke and fire events are nothing new. OEM vehicles can
partake too. I have some recollection of hearing of an EV1 fire or two,
ostensibly because the charging port overheated. More recently, a GEM
fire burnt up the side of a building down in SF's Presidio. Then
reading the SRJC thread, I saw mention of an EV fire in Petaluma,
presumably during charging (but it didn't say as I recall), that I
hadn't heard about. And now the SRJC fire (how it happened isn't apparent).

There's always something that can go wrong and cause a charging smoke
event. Your charger's bouncing down the road along with the rest of the
car, along with your BMS. Batteries... Maybe that last pothole cracked
a circuit board somewhere, so your BMS now cooks your (lithium)
batteries. A surge/sag comes down the powerline and scrambles your
electronics. A charging port/connector not inserted quite right,
leading to a high-resistance connection. A little oxidation in a
connection starts the vicious cycle of heat and more oxidation, and on
it goes till it gets hot enough to... How many other ways can something
go wrong? It all has to work, no screwups allowed!

When I was getting into EVs back in the early and mid-90s, one of my
concerns was having a fire during charging, like overnight when I'm
snoozing. I remember bringing this up during a NBEAA meeting(yes, the
same one associated with this SRJC car, but almost all different
people). I asked the question of the speaker. Out the corner of my
eye, I caught site of one of the chapter officers giving me the "shoosh"
signal. Let's sweep it under the rug, shall we? Not good enough!

I've been fortunate. I've never had a smoke event, except the one time
when I first had my EV, I was at the garage of the friend/EV'er who had
helped me build my car, and I had the K&W BC-20 cranked up for some
time. I went to unplug it, and smoke came pouring out of the female
connector at the charge "port" (basically a 5-15 connector). I still
laugh to this day when I remember Preston leaping over to the other end
of the cord to unplug it. But other than that, no smoke. I'm very
careful, and I check the car (sniffer is on alert, feel
charger/connections/cordends, everything sound right and acting ok?)
after it's been charging for awhile before I turn in for the night.

All that said, I do have a standard smoke detector on the shelf that I
bought for experimenting with to install in the car. My goal is not to
have a screeching (perhaps false alarm) smoke detector. I'm thinking
something more that will just shut the charging process off via a relay,
and more recently, send an alert to the computer display up in the apt
(or wherever). I planned on partially dissecting the charger, tossing
the speaker or whatever it is that makes that horrendous noise, and see
if I can drive a relay off of that speaker connection. One what
would've been a speaker chirp would trip the otherwise-closed relay.
Once I've got the relay working, I can do what I want. Anyone done this
before, or am I barking up the wrong tree trying to run off the speaker
wires? It shouldn't be too hard to just try it out, but I'd have to
track down a suitable test relay (suggestions?). I'd put one smoke
detector in the back near the charger, and perhaps one up under the hood
somewhere to keep track of the numerous fuses and connections up there.
There's also the issue of a trip when the FLAs reach the gassing
point, but whether the gassing is strong enough to cause a trip is
probably not the case. Also, I understand ICE exhaust can set off smoke
detectors.

No smoke, thankyou,



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Joined
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Discussion Starter #4
Every WarP motor comes with one installed. Who hooks them up?

;-)

Leslie <[email protected]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Why not just use the trusty thermal fuse?
>
> If a thermal fuse is good enough in household heaters and hairdryers
> and
> other appliances in and around the home, then surely they are suitable
> for an EV. The whole point of a thermal fuse is to stop these exact
> kind
> of accidents from happening and disconnect the current in a circuit
> before the circuit is overloaded and a fire starts.
>
> I'm not having a go at BMS designs or whether this was even the result
> of a BMS or not, and I'm not having a go at the few DIY EVs that have
> burned - but surely it would be a good, safe, idea to have thermal
> fuses
> incorporated into such things to help stop (or at least substantially
> reduce) these fires from even occurring.
>
> I don't think it would take much to incorporate them into the BMS
> module(s) or the LV wiring - or even into their own circuit that would
> open a contactor or two if ambient temp got above the thermal fuse
> rating in whichever compartment it was placed. As long as what needs
> to
> be isolated is isolated and the thermal fuse(s) stop the current flow
> and stop whatever from overheating and catching fire, then that
> would be
> a win.
>
> Replacing a couple damaged cells or a waterheater or cabin heater is
> much cheaper then replacing the whole EV and everything else in the
> vacinity that would be damaged if the EV caught fire and burned while
> you were asleep.
>
> Just a thought, feedback, suggestions and criticism always welcomed.
>
> Leslie
>
>
>
>
>
> On 23/03/2011 11:28 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>> Why not heat sensors. Stop for potential fires and overcharge.
>>
>> Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless
>>
>> -----Original message-----
>> From: David Dymaxion<[email protected]>
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<[email protected]>
>> Sent: Wed, Mar 23, 2011 00:48:06 GMT+00:00
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] detecting the smoke before it gets out of hand
>> during
>> charging (long)
>>
>> A smoke detector sounds like a great idea. One question, does a
>> lithium
>> battery
>> smoke when it burns? You might have to be well into the fire before
>> it gets
>> smokey enough to trip the smoke detector. Maybe there is something
>> you can
>> smear
>> on the BMS boards / batteries / cabling that'll smoke when it gets
>> too hot?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Chuck Hursch<[email protected]>
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<[email protected]>
>> Sent: Tue, March 22, 2011 3:56:03 PM
>> Subject: [EVDL] detecting the smoke before it gets out of hand during
>> charging
>> (long)
>>
>> (This is a bit long, sorry; my technical ? is in the last paragraph.)
>>
>> With the uproar over the recent SRJC EV fire, it seems like I hear
>> very
>> little about detecting and stopping a charging smoke/fire. Maybe it
>> isn't sexy, I don't know, but in my 10-15 years of nearly continuous
>> reading of the List, it's seems rarely talked about.
>>
>> Playing devil's advocate ;^>: while gasoline refueling deals with a
>> very flammable substance, it is done quickly and under supervision,
>> ie.
>> someone is watching all the time. You're basically filling a can
>> with a
>> liquid, which is pretty darned simple. In contrast, the EV
>> battery-charging process seems a heck of a lot more complicated.
>> You've
>> got charger this, BMS that, and batteries too. Drags on and on, hour
>> after hour. Unattended for most of the time.
>>
>> EV-charging smoke and fire events are nothing new. OEM vehicles can
>> partake too. I have some recollection of hearing of an EV1 fire or
>> two,
>> ostensibly because the charging port overheated. More recently, a
>> GEM
>> fire burnt up the side of a building down in SF's Presidio. Then
>> reading the SRJC thread, I saw mention of an EV fire in Petaluma,
>> presumably during charging (but it didn't say as I recall), that I
>> hadn't heard about. And now the SRJC fire (how it happened isn't
>> apparent).
>>
>> There's always something that can go wrong and cause a charging smoke
>> event. Your charger's bouncing down the road along with the rest
>> of the
>> car, along with your BMS. Batteries... Maybe that last pothole
>> cracked
>> a circuit board somewhere, so your BMS now cooks your (lithium)
>> batteries. A surge/sag comes down the powerline and scrambles your
>> electronics. A charging port/connector not inserted quite right,
>> leading to a high-resistance connection. A little oxidation in a
>> connection starts the vicious cycle of heat and more oxidation, and
>> on
>> it goes till it gets hot enough to... How many other ways can
>> something
>> go wrong? It all has to work, no screwups allowed!
>>
>> When I was getting into EVs back in the early and mid-90s, one of my
>> concerns was having a fire during charging, like overnight when I'm
>> snoozing. I remember bringing this up during a NBEAA meeting(yes,
>> the
>> same one associated with this SRJC car, but almost all different
>> people). I asked the question of the speaker. Out the corner of my
>> eye, I caught site of one of the chapter officers giving me the
>> "shoosh"
>> signal. Let's sweep it under the rug, shall we? Not good enough!
>>
>> I've been fortunate. I've never had a smoke event, except the one
>> time
>> when I first had my EV, I was at the garage of the friend/EV'er who
>> had
>> helped me build my car, and I had the K&W BC-20 cranked up for some
>> time. I went to unplug it, and smoke came pouring out of the female
>> connector at the charge "port" (basically a 5-15 connector). I still
>> laugh to this day when I remember Preston leaping over to the other
>> end
>> of the cord to unplug it. But other than that, no smoke. I'm very
>> careful, and I check the car (sniffer is on alert, feel
>> charger/connections/cordends, everything sound right and acting ok?)
>> after it's been charging for awhile before I turn in for the night.
>>
>> All that said, I do have a standard smoke detector on the shelf
>> that I
>> bought for experimenting with to install in the car. My goal is
>> not to
>> have a screeching (perhaps false alarm) smoke detector. I'm thinking
>> something more that will just shut the charging process off via a
>> relay,
>> and more recently, send an alert to the computer display up in the
>> apt
>> (or wherever). I planned on partially dissecting the charger,
>> tossing
>> the speaker or whatever it is that makes that horrendous noise, and
>> see
>> if I can drive a relay off of that speaker connection. One what
>> would've been a speaker chirp would trip the otherwise-closed relay.
>> Once I've got the relay working, I can do what I want. Anyone done
>> this
>> before, or am I barking up the wrong tree trying to run off the
>> speaker
>> wires? It shouldn't be too hard to just try it out, but I'd have to
>> track down a suitable test relay (suggestions?). I'd put one smoke
>> detector in the back near the charger, and perhaps one up under the
>> hood
>> somewhere to keep track of the numerous fuses and connections up
>> there.
>> There's also the issue of a trip when the FLAs reach the gassing
>> point, but whether the gassing is strong enough to cause a trip is
>> probably not the case. Also, I understand ICE exhaust can set off
>> smoke
>> detectors.
>>
>> No smoke, thankyou,
>>
>>
>>
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>> ment.html
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>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>
> _______________________________________________
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Joined
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Discussion Starter #5
Chuck Hursch wrote:

> ...
> All that said, I do have a standard smoke detector on the shelf that I
> bought for experimenting with to install in the car. My goal is not =

> to
> have a screeching (perhaps false alarm) smoke detector. I'm thinking
> something more that will just shut the charging process off via a =

> relay,
> and more recently, send an alert to the computer display up in the apt
> (or wherever). I planned on partially dissecting the charger, tossing
> the speaker or whatever it is that makes that horrendous noise, and =

> see
> if I can drive a relay off of that speaker connection. One what
> would've been a speaker chirp would trip the otherwise-closed relay.
> Once I've got the relay working, I can do what I want. Anyone done =

> this
> before, or am I barking up the wrong tree trying to run off the =

> speaker
> wires? It shouldn't be too hard to just try it out, but I'd have to
> track down a suitable test relay (suggestions?). I'd put one smoke
> detector in the back near the charger, and perhaps one up under the =

> hood
> somewhere to keep track of the numerous fuses and connections up =

> there.
> There's also the issue of a trip when the FLAs reach the gassing
> point, but whether the gassing is strong enough to cause a trip is
> probably not the case. Also, I understand ICE exhaust can set off =

> smoke
> detectors.
> ...

Hi Chuck,

I have posted about this before and I think you are absolutely right. =

Given the somewhat 'experimental' nature of our hobby/business, some =

sort of alarm and/or auto shutoff is important.

You might get away with it forever - or you might not. Well, I had my =

warning last week when a Wh meter plugged in between the charger and =

timer in my van overheated and failed - fortunately causing nothing =

more serious than a rather unpleasant smell. I have posted a picture =

here... http://winlow.co.uk/wychwood.co.uk/EV_Conversion_-_Part_5.html

Obviously, had the plastic in either device not been fire suppressant =

the results might have been rather different. I have had a battery =

powered smoke alarm in the van for a year or so but it is only any use =

if someone can hear it. So I have been researching GSM based house =

alarms which come with the usual sensors (wireless or wired - wired =

probably better as the charger RFI might upset the wireless links) and =

can be bought very cheaply on eBay (UK=A3 30-50). These can send text =

messages or ring your mobile or whatever if they go off. So, a much =

better solution.

They only use about 30-50mA on standby (12VDC) and some have outputs =

on arming so I can do away with my existing van alarm (which also does =

the central locking). Another output is controlled on an alarm state =

so this could drop the charger power - with the addition of a simple =

relay. The possibilities are endless. Just use it with a PAYG airtime =

tariff and it is a very cheap and flexible solution. You can call the =

alarm and listen in - arm and disarm it remotely etc etc.

The one I am looking at most keenly at the moment is here...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3D180633510783&ssPageN=
ame=3DADME:X:RTQ:GB:1123#ht_6044wt_1141

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk




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Discussion Starter #6
Mike Willmon wrote:

> Every WarP motor comes with one installed. Who hooks them up?
>

I did! Mine is hooked up to a light on my dash. I verified it works by forcing the circuit open (which is what the switch on the Warp does, if I recall right).

-corbin


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Discussion Starter #7
I have mine wired to the old 'Check Engine' light on the dash.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk

Mike Willmon wrote:

> Every WarP motor comes with one installed. Who hooks them up?
>
> ;-)
>
> On Mar 22, 2011, at 8:59 PM, Leslie <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Why not just use the trusty thermal fuse?
>>
>>





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Discussion Starter #8
On 3/23/2011 9:19 AM, corbin dunn wrote:
>
>
Mike Willmon wrote:
>
>> Every WarP motor comes with one installed. Who hooks them up?
>>
>
> I did! Mine is hooked up to a light on my dash. I verified it works by forcing the circuit open (which is what the switch on the Warp does, if I recall right).
>
I have an 8" ADC, and I've never been able to test that thermal switch
in the motor. I don't even know if the whole circuit works. Wired it
up faithfully per ElectroAutomotive VoltsRabbit instructions back in
1994. I have monitored the temperature of the motor case via a negative
temperature coefficient thermistor in one of the threaded holes in the
motor case, with wiring going to my engine temperature gauge.

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Discussion Starter #9
Martin WINLOW wrote:
> You might get away with it forever - or you might not. Well, I had my
> warning last week when a Wh meter plugged in between the charger and
> timer in my van overheated and failed - fortunately causing nothing
> more serious than a rather unpleasant smell. I have posted a picture
> here... http://winlow.co.uk/wychwood.co.uk/EV_Conversion_-_Part_5.html

Since only one pin of the WH meter melted, and the other looks perfect,
I'd guess that there was a damaged pin or bad connection on the one that
failed.

Note that it was a "safe" failure. It didn't burst into flame. That
means the manufacturer did their job right. They used fire retardent
materials, and probably had their product tested for exactly this sort
of failure to be sure it was safe.

Most electrical devices have been tested by some safety agency (UL, CSA,
VDE, CE, etc.) This means the manufacturer submitted samples to the
respective agency, who tested it, and only allowed their mark to be put
on it if it passed. The agency tests require such things as fireproof or
fire-retardent materials, fuses, thermal protectors, insulation to
prevent shocks, etc.

But in the USA, such testing is voluntary. Many manufacturers choose not
to do it (so there is no "UL" mark). Or, they will put "counterfeit" UL
markings on their products.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Discussion Starter #10
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