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Discussion Starter #1
Hi Lee,

Not to question your wisdom ;-) but shouldn't EV;s *include* the periodic battery replacement cost that's typically 10c per mile? Lead is about $1k for 10k miles, my ni-cads (STM5-180's) are $4k for 40k miles, LiFePO4 (should be) $10k for 100k miles.

So my www.evalbum.com/1273 is fairly typical 330whrs per mile (measured at the AC outlet no-cheating), here at 15c per kwh, about 5c per mile + 10c is 15c per mile. My Honda Insight (the real one year-2000' 5-speed) is 70mpg, at $3 per gallon is 4.2c per mile. (Of course a regular-bimbo 20mpg gasser is 15c per mile fuel cost). But unless i charge with my fixed cost solar panels (which I do when I'm grid tie surplusing), the Insight comes out ahead on cost and about twice as good on pollution (since we're 85% coal fired in Roanoke, VA)

have a renewable energy day,
Mark
www.reevadiy.org
>
> ------------------------------
> Message: 22
> Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:45:57 -0600
> From: Lee Hart <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Dirt to Wheels analysis?
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> The real problem with this type of analysis is that its real purpose is
> to shift the focus and prevent change. The auto companies and oil
> companies are masters of this game. They have used it successfully for
> decades to stall any and all changes and regulations.
>
> Rather than say you disagree with someone, you instead say "You have a
> good idea, but how big a difference would it make? We'll have to study
> it first." Then the studies go on forever. As each one comes out, you
> find some fault with it, and so insist on a new one.
>
> When you argue this way, you are playing their game. They have the "home
> team" advantage, and are almost certain to win.
>
> The average driver doesn't care about dirt to wheels analysis. He
> doesn't know what his car costs him per mile, or how much pollution it
> makes. We don't want or need to sell EVs to the oil or auto companies or
> government -- we want to sell *consumers* on them! To do that, write
> your appeal to them!
>
> - Cheaper to run: 10 cents/KWH versus $3.00/gallon
> - Cleaner: No pollution
> - Simpler: no oil, filters, belts, hoses, exhaust system, etc.
> - Convenient; no more trips to the gas station, oil changes, etc.
> - Fun! Exciting! New!
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>

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Discussion Starter #2
With Lithium I don't know if I'd include battery cost as it's not really
periodic. I think the average vehicle lifespan is between 10-13 years,
depending on how the car is driven a lithium pack should last that long.
10,000 miles a year for 10 years is only 1000 cycles on a 100 mile pack.
Lithium should easily do twice that.


Lee Hart wrote:
>
> On 12/8/2010 12:46 PM, Mark Hanson wrote:
>> Hi Lee,
>>
>> Not to question your wisdom ;-) but shouldn't EV;s *include* the
>> periodic battery replacement cost that's typically 10c per mile?
>> Lead is about $1k for 10k miles, my ni-cads (STM5-180's) are $4k for
>> 40k miles, LiFePO4 (should be) $10k for 100k miles.
>
> You'd never make it in Marketing, Mark. :) No car salesman will talk
> about how much it costs for periodic replacement parts. You think he's
> going to tell you what that Hummer or Ferrari will cost you a year for
> maintenance and repairs?
>
> I was trying to make a list of reasons that the average Joe (or Jane)
> would be interested in EVs.
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
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>

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Discussion Starter #3
Lot of ways to make the comparison, but comparing a larger ev with the
highest mileage ice car, and including cost of batteries for the ev but no
maintenance cost over that 100k mile cell life for the ice doesn't seem the
most representative.
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