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Discussion Starter #1
Hi everyone,

Latest test of the "EVette" , 20amps, at 25mph, 120vdc, 400lbs of batteries. I must say, the math on this looks pretty good. Did some driveline updates, that helped, also we plan to changeout the superswampers for some nice slim tires, should do even better then. For those of you who haven`t seen the EVette, go to electricevette.com or you can see it on youtube at electricevette.

Tom Sines

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Discussion Starter #2
Hi Tom

I believe in truth as in honesty so here goes.
I think it's a horrible design, a great build with obvious talent but
'wasted' on a horrible design. I agree with the light weight philosophy
but as a goal in itself and not as a way to carry more batteries. I
believe in better batteries rather than more and that time is about now
as some high power lithiums are now even cheaper than lead acid when
considering their lifespan.
Fly by wire joystick is terrible because it adds needless points of
disastrous failure when the steering wheel is such a well working
design. 4 wheels is similarly well working compared to the 3 wheel
shopping trolley config. Can you honestly say you are relaxed in it
going 60-90 mph on a straight road? in germany it's not uncommon for
cars to do 155mph on the autobahn as their normal cruise speed.
While the freakyness of the design might get some attention and in that
way help the cause a lot, I do believe you could be much more effective
doing attractive light weight high performance 4 wheel cars rather than
"freakshows". consider the attention the tesla roadster has gotten
despite it's high price. or white zombie for its speed and empty engine
room despite being a 72 datsun :) or the wrightspeed X1 for its 1g
acceleration and 'business' looks.

Rather than be discouraged by this (assuming you believe it to be true)
you should maybe think about what you could build. and it's not a waste.
you have the experience and the place in history for one of the
freakiest vehicles ever : )

We've seen too many impractical EVs and they don't really help. Then the
tesla comes along that looks like a normal attractive car and beats a
normal car and it makes all the difference in the world. It's still too
expensive to make a direct big impact itself but it shows the way. Our
goal here should essentially be to shame big auto into doing what they
should have done long ago and I don't think the evette is doing that as
much as you could with the talent and effort. A single person can change
the world for the better.

They should see our builds and ask why isn't GM or VW or Toyota making
these.

just a thought
Dan



Tom S. wrote:

>Hi everyone,
>
>Latest test of the "EVette" , 20amps, at 25mph, 120vdc, 400lbs of batteries. I must say, the math on this looks pretty good. Did some driveline updates, that helped, also we plan to changeout the superswampers for some nice slim tires, should do even better then. For those of you who haven`t seen the EVette, go to electricevette.com or you can see it on youtube at electricevette.
>
>Tom Sines
>
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Discussion Starter #4
Ben wrote:

>I understand constructive criticism, so don't take this the wrong way
>Dan -- but I have to comment that it seems a bit strange to hear a
>EVer dismissing different techniques and technologies because the
>existing/established/normal ways to do things work just fine. Yes,
>it's true -- four wheels are normal, and usually work well. Yeah,
>drive-by-wire is rare and adds some more (electronic) complexity. On
>the other hand, when you consider the goal of transportation form
>point A to point B, ICE vehicles certainly get the job done just fine
>.... Why should we consider something new?
>
>
I don't mind and I think the true reason you say this is not because you
believe it but to protect his feelings.
I was concerned about that too but I have faith in truth. I believe we
are all the better for it when we dare tell the truth and not imprison
ourselves in short sighted concerns.
We should make EVs because og global warming and peak oil. obviously
There is no similar reason for less than 4 wheels and you shouldn't
suggest there is

Dan

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Discussion Starter #6
I think you're being really overly critical. I'm decently impressed
with the vehicle.

Better batteries vs more batteries - at the present, the time-vs-miles
may be about equal on Lithium and Lead, but most people can't afford
the up-front costs of Lithium. I think it's perfectly reasonable to
use Lead-Acid batteries; plus, he can upgrade to Lithium later if/when
he can afford it; it's not like the vehicle will only work on Lead.

3 wheels vs. 4 wheels - there's nothing intrinsically wrong with
3-wheel designs. 4 wheels are more popular for cars, but that may just
be what we're used to. Most solar car teams use 3 wheel designs - not
because they have to, but because they can get lower drag with 3
wheels. You call 3 wheel cars "freakshows", but you give no reason
other than that they're not "normal". And 3 wheel vehicles have one
huge advantage over 4 wheel designs for custom cars: it's much easier
to get them registered with the department of transportation of most
states.

drive-by-wire - I (and my roommate) think drive by wire is awesome. If
done well, there's no reason for it to be unsafe or unresponsive. Cars
have hundreds or thousands of failure points; he's just removing some
while adding others. Personally, I'd rather do the engineering for a
drive-by-wire type system than a rack-and-pinion system.

Yes, you're right. This car isn't practical for the average consumer.
That doesn't mean it's a "horrible design", though. I'm sure the owner
will love it, and I would like to build something like that for myself
someday - a lightweight, 3-wheeled, aerodynamic EV.

Also, I think that 20A at 25mph is pretty amazing. If it's that
efficient on Lead, what will it be like when/if you upgrade to
Lithium?!?! When batteries are a large part of vehicle weight like
this, you will probably see some truly amazing gains if/when you
switch.

-Morgan LaMoore

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Discussion Starter #7
whenever I say something that rocks the boat we waste so much time on me
defending myself.

Morgan LaMoore wrote:

>I think you're being really overly critical. I'm decently impressed
>with the vehicle.
>
>
I said it was a good build.

>Better batteries vs more batteries - at the present, the time-vs-miles
>may be about equal on Lithium and Lead, but most people can't afford
>the up-front costs of Lithium. I think it's perfectly reasonable to
>use Lead-Acid batteries
>
lead is very reasonable for that very reason. but he said he was
building the car of the future.

>3 wheels vs. 4 wheels - there's nothing intrinsically wrong with
>3-wheel designs.
>
yes there is. stability

>drive-by-wire - I (and my roommate) think drive by wire is awesome.
>
so do I. it is just that much more complicated to make as safe

>Yes, you're right. This car isn't practical for the average consumer.
>That doesn't mean it's a "horrible design", though. I'm sure the owner
>will love it, and I would like to build something like that for myself
>someday - a lightweight, 3-wheeled, aerodynamic EV.
>
>
I'm sure it's quite good fun at times :) but I stand by my points

>Also, I think that 20A at 25mph is pretty amazing. If it's that
>efficient on Lead, what will it be like when/if you upgrade to
>Lithium?!?! When batteries are a large part of vehicle weight like
>this, you will probably see some truly amazing gains if/when you
>switch.
>
>
efficiency have well known causes. less contact to the road is one way
to achieve that. but 4 small wheels should be just as efficient 2 or 3
bigger ones.
3 wheels is simply not a good design for a car. we wont be helping
anyone by lying to ourselves.

Dan

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Discussion Starter #8
<<< Also, I think that 20A at 25mph is pretty amazing. If it's that
efficient on Lead, what will it be like when/if you upgrade to
Lithium?!?! When batteries are a large part of vehicle weight like
this, you will probably see some truly amazing gains if/when you
switch. >>>

2.4kW is good, but "amazing"? Maybe for a NEV, but not a lot of
listees consider 25mph safe on typical public roads. 45mph is more
useful, but it's even more important to be able to do safe highway
maneuvers at that speed - the power needed for a small (4-wheel) car
would be ~7kW (less with attention to detail).

A ZAP Xebra would be pushing its luck to go 45mph, but might be a good
benchmark for comparison.

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Discussion Starter #9
If all your steering, braking, accelerating is done by the rear wheels, I
asume that the front wheel is just a caster?

If that is the case, what happens if you need to brake from speed and one of
your rear braking wheels loses traction? Won't you lose control and go off
the road?

Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom S." <[email protected]>
To: "ev list" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 2:41 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Electric EVette amps


> Hi everyone,
>
> Latest test of the "EVette" , 20amps, at 25mph, 120vdc, 400lbs of
batteries. I must say, the math on this looks pretty good. Did some
driveline updates, that helped, also we plan to changeout the superswampers
for some nice slim tires, should do even better then. For those of you who
haven`t seen the EVette, go to electricevette.com or you can see it on
youtube at electricevette.
>
> Tom Sines
>
> ________________________________________
> PeoplePC Online
> A better way to Internet
> http://www.peoplepc.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter #10
It is a single front wheel 3 wheeler?? Yikes!!!

Wasn't there a little French econo car from the 50s that was a 3 wheeler?


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim L" <[email protected]>
To: "Tom S." <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric EVette amps


> If all your steering, braking, accelerating is done by the rear wheels, I
> asume that the front wheel is just a caster?
>
> If that is the case, what happens if you need to brake from speed and one
> of
> your rear braking wheels loses traction? Won't you lose control and go off
> the road?
>
> Jim
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom S." <[email protected]>
> To: "ev list" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 2:41 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] Electric EVette amps
>
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> Latest test of the "EVette" , 20amps, at 25mph, 120vdc, 400lbs of
> batteries. I must say, the math on this looks pretty good. Did some
> driveline updates, that helped, also we plan to changeout the
> superswampers
> for some nice slim tires, should do even better then. For those of you
> who
> haven`t seen the EVette, go to electricevette.com or you can see it on
> youtube at electricevette.
>>
>> Tom Sines
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> PeoplePC Online
>> A better way to Internet
>> http://www.peoplepc.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Discussion Starter #11
Hi Everyone,
Latest test, 30amps at 30mph, 120vdc, now thats more like it. Got new batteries, big difference. I`ve noticed some of you are a little afraid of the EVette, well don`t worry, nobody is going to make you ride in it. Did I mention, its possible to drive the EVette,by computer. It seems to me, that would be a programmer`s dream!

Tom Sines

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Discussion Starter #12
..Or nightmare - I'd think it should be mandatory to make the programmer
drive the car first to make sure all the bugs are worked out ;)

john

Tom S. wrote:
> ... Did I mention, its possible to drive the EVette,by computer. It seems to me, that would be a programmer`s dream!
>
> Tom Sines
>
>

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Discussion Starter #13
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Tom S." <[email protected]>
>Sent: Oct 17, 2007 3:25 PM
>To: ev list <[email protected]>
>Subject: [EVDL] Electric EVette amps
>
>Hi Everyone,
>Latest test, 30amps at 30mph, 120vdc, now thats more like it. Got new batteries, big difference. I`ve noticed some of you are a little afraid of the EVette, well don`t worry, nobody is going to make you ride in it. Did I mention, its possible to drive the EVette,by computer. It seems to me, that would be a programmer`s dream!
>
>Tom Sines
>
>________________________________________
>PeoplePC Online
>A better way to Internet
>http://www.peoplepc.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
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Discussion Starter #14
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Tom S." <[email protected]>
>Sent: Oct 17, 2007 3:25 PM
>To: ev list <[email protected]>
>Subject: [EVDL] Electric EVette amps
>
>Hi Everyone,
>Latest test, 30amps at 30mph, 120vdc, now thats more like it. Got new batteries, big difference. I`ve noticed some of you are a little afraid of the EVette, well don`t worry, nobody is going to make you ride in it. Did I mention, its possible to drive the EVette,by computer. It seems to me, that would be a programmer`s dream!
>
>Tom Sines
>
>________________________________________
>PeoplePC Online
>A better way to Internet
>http://www.peoplepc.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


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Discussion Starter #15
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom S." <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric EVette amps


>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: "Tom S." <[email protected]>
>>Sent: Oct 17, 2007 3:25 PM
>>To: ev list <[email protected]>
>>Subject: [EVDL] Electric EVette amps
>>
>>Hi Everyone,
>>Latest test, 30amps at 30mph, 120vdc, now thats more like it. Got new
>>batteries, big difference. I`ve noticed some of you are a little afraid
>>of the EVette, well don`t worry, nobody is going to make you ride in it.
>>Did I mention, its possible to drive the EVette,by computer. It seems to
>>me, that would be a programmer`s dream!
>>
>>Tom Sines
>> WHYTHEHELL would you want to drive a car by a computer!!??Rather have a
>> good old stearing wheel, brake and Gas(Go) pedal! I'm sorta used to that
>> as well as av zillion of American Sheeple drivers.Using Micro Sloth?
>> Yeah! Right! I think there was a saterical piece , floating around the
>> "Net" as to the "Micro Soft Car"Youse guyz have scene that one?
>> Airplane?? Yeah, It wrenches the controls away from Zeilots bent on
>> knocking down expensive buildings, with equelilly expensive airplanes.Now
>> that would make $ence, the plane is flown and landed by computer where a
>> swat squad would finish off the hyjackers when they TRIED to leave the
>> plane?

Seeya

Bob
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>
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Discussion Starter #16
where do you measure the voltage and current? batteries or across motor?
also do you watch for power factor? (since it's not DC power, the
current and voltage might not be in sync)

Dan



Tom S. wrote:

>-----Original Message-----
>
>
>>From: "Tom S." <[email protected]>
>>Sent: Oct 17, 2007 3:25 PM
>>To: ev list <[email protected]>
>>Subject: [EVDL] Electric EVette amps
>>
>>Hi Everyone,
>>Latest test, 30amps at 30mph, 120vdc, now thats more like it. Got new batteries, big difference. I`ve noticed some of you are a little afraid of the EVette, well don`t worry, nobody is going to make you ride in it. Did I mention, its possible to drive the EVette,by computer. It seems to me, that would be a programmer`s dream!
>>
>>Tom Sines
>>
>>________________________________________
>>PeoplePC Online
>>A better way to Internet
>>http://www.peoplepc.com
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>For subscription options, see
>>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
>
>________________________________________
>PeoplePC Online
>A better way to Internet
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>
>_______________________________________________
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>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>

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