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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello all,

Tucson's Clean Cities Coalition had their bimonthly meeting yesterday and it was sort of depressing
for EV's.

As I 'm sure you know... Ecotality of Phoenix won (?) a grant of $99.9 Million to install about
14,500 Level II charging stations and about 250 high voltage DC stations in Tucson, Phoenix, Ca, Or,
Tx etc (http://www.theevproject.com/). We expected the charging stations to start being installed
in conjunction with the Leaf roll out here. That's why I got the J1772 Adapter Box, Inlets and Plugs
going at www.TucsonEV.com. The Leaf was introduced earlier this month here.

Well Nissan has decided not to roll out the Leaf until there are at least 25% of the scheduled
charging stations installed in Tucson (25% of 250 = 70 stations). It turns out that Ecotality does
not have a product yet. In Calif, where they are also supposed to be installed, AeroViroment charger
stations are being installed, 'temporarily' I heard. The earliest that Tucson will get any is by
March. I've also heard that there are no contracts with any of the establishments that want the
charging stations on their property. So there are no electrical permits applied for, which will
further set back the installations.

On a plus side, when the charging stations are installed, they will be free for 2 years! After that
period, the property owner will decide how to charge, but there is a push to keep them free.

The Nissan dealership on Automall here in Tucson has 2 AeroViroment chargers, so Tucson now has
4 -J1772 Charging stations... YEAH.....

Rush
Tucson AZ
www.TucsonAZ.com
www.TEVA2.com

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
You seem to know a thing or two about how to charge EVs obviously. If
you have access to a decent charger hardware platform you could lobby
to get the charger station contract yourself since the other guys were
obviously just selling vapor? You could probably help expedite things
and maybe make a few bucks along the way.
John Scrivner


Rush <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> Tucson's Clean Cities Coalition had their bimonthly meeting yesterday and=
it was sort of depressing
> for EV's.
>
> As I 'm sure you know... Ecotality of Phoenix won (?) a grant of $99.9 Mi=
llion to install about
> 14,500 Level II charging stations and about 250 high voltage DC stations =
in Tucson, Phoenix, Ca, Or,
> Tx etc (http://www.theevproject.com/). We expected the charging statio=
ns to start being installed
> in conjunction with the Leaf roll out here. That's why I got the J1772 Ad=
apter Box, Inlets and Plugs
> going at www.TucsonEV.com. The Leaf was introduced earlier this month her=
e.
>
> Well Nissan has decided not to roll out the Leaf until there are at least=
25% of the scheduled
> charging stations installed in Tucson (25% of 250 =3D 70 stations). It tu=
rns out that Ecotality does
> not have a product yet. In Calif, where they are also supposed to be inst=
alled, AeroViroment charger
> stations are being installed, 'temporarily' I heard. The earliest that Tu=
cson will get any is by
> March. I've also heard that there are no contracts with any of the establ=
ishments that want the
> charging stations on their property. So there are no electrical permits a=
pplied for, which will
> further set back the installations.
>
> On a plus side, when the charging stations are installed, they will be fr=
ee for 2 years! After that
> period, the property owner will decide how to charge, but there is a push=
to keep them free.
>
> The Nissan dealership on Automall here in Tucson has 2 AeroViroment charg=
ers, so Tucson now has
> 4 -J1772 Charging stations... YEAH.....
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.TucsonAZ.com
> www.TEVA2.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Nice thought John,
BUT, as Rush is likely aware the J1772 charging station equipment is
required to be UL approved and that is time consuming and expensive! Using
the Spa Panel and aftermarket charging cable with j1772 can be done by an
individual but woe to the professional who does it for another EVer... As it
is then a violation of the Electrical code and Business Regulation Statutes
in most municipalities. That is how it was intended as there is a LOT of
MONEY to be made in EV Charging Stations (Why does an EV j1772 setup cost
$4,500 installed; but, a 240 V. @30A. outlet for an RV(Camper) only costs
about $450 installed??? (And "Free" j1772 installations are being paid for
by Grants . But, that only is happening in 11 cities and the rest of us are
left out of that!) OK I'll jump down off my soap box now!

Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
It ended because they started using their Brains !
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

John Scrivner <[email protected]> wrote:

> You seem to know a thing or two about how to charge EVs obviously. If
> you have access to a decent charger hardware platform you could lobby
> to get the charger station contract yourself since the other guys were
> obviously just selling vapor? You could probably help expedite things
> and maybe make a few bucks along the way.
> John Scrivner
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Rush <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > Tucson's Clean Cities Coalition had their bimonthly meeting yesterday and
> it was sort of depressing
> > for EV's.
> >
> > As I 'm sure you know... Ecotality of Phoenix won (?) a grant of $99.9
> Million to install about
> > 14,500 Level II charging stations and about 250 high voltage DC stations
> in Tucson, Phoenix, Ca, Or,
> > Tx etc (http://www.theevproject.com/). We expected the charging
> stations to start being installed
> > in conjunction with the Leaf roll out here. That's why I got the J1772
> Adapter Box, Inlets and Plugs
> > going at www.TucsonEV.com. The Leaf was introduced earlier this month
> here.
> >
> > Well Nissan has decided not to roll out the Leaf until there are at least
> 25% of the scheduled
> > charging stations installed in Tucson (25% of 250 = 70 stations). It
> turns out that Ecotality does
> > not have a product yet. In Calif, where they are also supposed to be
> installed, AeroViroment charger
> > stations are being installed, 'temporarily' I heard. The earliest that
> Tucson will get any is by
> > March. I've also heard that there are no contracts with any of the
> establishments that want the
> > charging stations on their property. So there are no electrical permits
> applied for, which will
> > further set back the installations.
> >
> > On a plus side, when the charging stations are installed, they will be
> free for 2 years! After that
> > period, the property owner will decide how to charge, but there is a push
> to keep them free.
> >
> > The Nissan dealership on Automall here in Tucson has 2 AeroViroment
> chargers, so Tucson now has
> > 4 -J1772 Charging stations... YEAH.....
> >
> > Rush
> > Tucson AZ
> > www.TucsonAZ.com
> > www.TEVA2.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
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_______________________________________________
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| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I must say that $4500 for a charging station sounds a whole lot like
profiteering to me. Why didn't everyone just standardize on a camper
type connection like campers have been using for like a gazillion
years? I don't get it.
John Scrivner


Dennis Miles <x[email protected]> wrote:
> Nice thought John,
> BUT, as Rush is likely aware the J1772 charging station equipm=
ent is
> required to be UL approved and that is time consuming and expensive! Using
> the Spa Panel and aftermarket charging cable with j1772 can be done by an
> individual but woe to the professional who does it for another EVer... As=
it
> is then a violation of the Electrical code and Business Regulation Statut=
es
> in most municipalities. That is how it was intended as there is a LOT of
> MONEY to be made in EV Charging Stations (Why does an EV j1772 setup cost
> $4,500 installed; but, a 240 V. @30A. outlet for an RV(Camper) only costs
> about $450 installed??? (And "Free" j1772 installations are being paid for
> by Grants . But, that only is happening in 11 cities and the rest of us a=
re
> left out of that!) OK I'll jump down off my soap box now!
>
> Regards,
> *Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
> *www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
> EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
> *
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
> It ended because they started using their Brains !
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 8:35 AM, John Scrivner <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> You seem to know a thing or two about how to charge EVs obviously. If
>> you have access to a decent charger hardware platform you could lobby
>> to get the charger station contract yourself since the other guys were
>> obviously just selling vapor? You could probably help expedite things
>> and maybe make a few bucks along the way.
>> John Scrivner
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Rush <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > Hello all,
>> >
>> > Tucson's Clean Cities Coalition had their bimonthly meeting yesterday =
and
>> it was sort of depressing
>> > for EV's.
>> >
>> > As I 'm sure you know... Ecotality of Phoenix won (?) a grant of $99.9
>> Million to install about
>> > 14,500 Level II charging stations and about 250 high voltage DC statio=
ns
>> in Tucson, Phoenix, Ca, Or,
>> > Tx etc (http://www.theevproject.com/). We expected the charging
>> stations to start being installed
>> > in conjunction with the Leaf roll out here. That's why I got the J1772
>> Adapter Box, Inlets and Plugs
>> > going at www.TucsonEV.com. The Leaf was introduced earlier this month
>> here.
>> >
>> > Well Nissan has decided not to roll out the Leaf until there are at le=
ast
>> 25% of the scheduled
>> > charging stations installed in Tucson (25% of 250 =3D 70 stations). It
>> turns out that Ecotality does
>> > not have a product yet. In Calif, where they are also supposed to be
>> installed, AeroViroment charger
>> > stations are being installed, 'temporarily' I heard. The earliest that
>> Tucson will get any is by
>> > March. I've also heard that there are no contracts with any of the
>> establishments that want the
>> > charging stations on their property. So there are no electrical permits
>> applied for, which will
>> > further set back the installations.
>> >
>> > On a plus side, when the charging stations are installed, they will be
>> free for 2 years! After that
>> > period, the property owner will decide how to charge, but there is a p=
ush
>> to keep them free.
>> >
>> > The Nissan dealership on Automall here in Tucson has 2 AeroViroment
>> chargers, so Tucson now has
>> > 4 -J1772 Charging stations... YEAH.....
>> >
>> > Rush
>> > Tucson AZ
>> > www.TucsonAZ.com
>> > www.TEVA2.com
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
>> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
>
>
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>

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
They won't because they can't profiteer with what is already in place. Don't
expect these to be in the same realm as DIY. It is after all a business. DIY
is a hobby.

-----
If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. :)
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-Charger-Roll-out-in-Tucson-tp3229427p3230186.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I understand that we all like to exagerate... but J1772 compliant charging stations can be had for
much less...

I guess that Dennis is not a member of the EAA. On the front page of the webiste
http://www.eaaev.org/, there is an ad for a Clippercreek J1772 charging station for a member price
of $2250.

Or you can buy a J1772 Plug and 8m of cord from me for $250, hook it up to a 220vac 30amp service,
put in a GFI and have your own charging station. And if you want to hook it up to a 50 amp service,
the wiring in my plug is 8 gauge and good for 60 amps. This is a little cheaper than the $2250,
and since everybody keeps on plugging RV Camper plugs...... sounds like a good combo to me...

Rush
www.TucsonEV.com


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Scrivner" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 8:19 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Charger Roll out in Tucson


I must say that $4500 for a charging station sounds a whole lot like
profiteering to me. Why didn't everyone just standardize on a camper
type connection like campers have been using for like a gazillion
years? I don't get it.
John Scrivner


Dennis Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
> Nice thought John,
> BUT, as Rush is likely aware the J1772 charging station equipment is
> required to be UL approved and that is time consuming and expensive! Using
> the Spa Panel and aftermarket charging cable with j1772 can be done by an
> individual but woe to the professional who does it for another EVer... As it
> is then a violation of the Electrical code and Business Regulation Statutes
> in most municipalities. That is how it was intended as there is a LOT of
> MONEY to be made in EV Charging Stations (Why does an EV j1772 setup cost
> $4,500 installed; but, a 240 V. @30A. outlet for an RV(Camper) only costs
> about $450 installed??? (And "Free" j1772 installations are being paid for
> by Grants . But, that only is happening in 11 cities and the rest of us are
> left out of that!) OK I'll jump down off my soap box now!
>
> Regards,
> *Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
> *www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
> EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
> *
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
> It ended because they started using their Brains !
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 8:35 AM, John Scrivner <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> You seem to know a thing or two about how to charge EVs obviously. If
>> you have access to a decent charger hardware platform you could lobby
>> to get the charger station contract yourself since the other guys were
>> obviously just selling vapor? You could probably help expedite things
>> and maybe make a few bucks along the way.
>> John Scrivner
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Rush <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > Hello all,
>> >
>> > Tucson's Clean Cities Coalition had their bimonthly meeting yesterday and
>> it was sort of depressing
>> > for EV's.
>> >
>> > As I 'm sure you know... Ecotality of Phoenix won (?) a grant of $99.9
>> Million to install about
>> > 14,500 Level II charging stations and about 250 high voltage DC stations
>> in Tucson, Phoenix, Ca, Or,
>> > Tx etc (http://www.theevproject.com/). We expected the charging
>> stations to start being installed
>> > in conjunction with the Leaf roll out here. That's why I got the J1772
>> Adapter Box, Inlets and Plugs
>> > going at www.TucsonEV.com. The Leaf was introduced earlier this month
>> here.
>> >
>> > Well Nissan has decided not to roll out the Leaf until there are at least
>> 25% of the scheduled
>> > charging stations installed in Tucson (25% of 250 = 70 stations). It
>> turns out that Ecotality does
>> > not have a product yet. In Calif, where they are also supposed to be
>> installed, AeroViroment charger
>> > stations are being installed, 'temporarily' I heard. The earliest that
>> Tucson will get any is by
>> > March. I've also heard that there are no contracts with any of the
>> establishments that want the
>> > charging stations on their property. So there are no electrical permits
>> applied for, which will
>> > further set back the installations.
>> >
>> > On a plus side, when the charging stations are installed, they will be
>> free for 2 years! After that
>> > period, the property owner will decide how to charge, but there is a push
>> to keep them free.
>> >
>> > The Nissan dealership on Automall here in Tucson has 2 AeroViroment
>> chargers, so Tucson now has
>> > 4 -J1772 Charging stations... YEAH.....
>> >
>> > Rush
>> > Tucson AZ
>> > www.TucsonAZ.com
>> > www.TEVA2.com
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
>> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
>
>
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Rush wrote:

> Or you can buy a J1772 Plug and 8m of cord from me for $250, hook it up to a 220vac 30amp service,
> put in a GFI and have your own charging station. And if you want to hook it up to a 50 amp service,
> the wiring in my plug is 8 gauge and good for 60 amps. This is a little cheaper than the $2250,
> and since everybody keeps on plugging RV Camper plugs...... sounds like a good combo to me...

> http://www.tucsonev.com/

Will you compare and contrast your J1772 plug + cable + 220 plug to a
$2K-$4K "charging station"? I am due to receive a Leaf in April and
have resisted ordering a "charging station".

If public charging stations become more common, I will likely be a
buyer of your J1772 adapter in order to charge a conversion. I have
yet to see a J1772 charging station "in the wild", though.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 131 days 19 hours 32 minutes

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Rush,
Yes you are correct in the statements you are making. However, you and
I and many of the members of this list are far more competent at household
electrical wiring than others both on and off the list and for those others
who are preparing to buy a Volt or a Leaf, the problem is not in being able
to obtain a j1772 compatible charging station; They can buy one from you or
Clippercreek, or they can apply for one of the free (If they live in one of
the designated cities, in Florida that is only in Orlando.) $3000 units
from Coulomb Industries; then they have to pay for installation in the home.
That installation including load and supply analysis, permitting thru the
Municipality Building Department , actual physical installation, including
adding an additional breaker to the service panel, and installing suitable
wiring in conduit (On the surface because the home has finished walls,) then
being inspected by the City's Building Inspector; in this area is $1,200 to
$2,000 and is not covered by any grants that I know of here in Florida.
This is why I said it cost about $4,500 installed !!
One of my friends is buying a Leaf. In August they begin deliveries in
Orlando. He has told me his dealer requires the receipt from a licensed
Electrical Contractor of a J1772 unit with UL approval (Not just compliant
!) before they will accept his order or make delivery.
Now he has been an EV converter and owner of several EV in the past 20
years since 1992 but they have so many customers and so few Leaf to sell
that the Dealer is not being co-operative!.
I feel it is a sad state of affairs personally and offered to do the
work for him but I am a DIY Electrician, not a licensed contractor.
He may buy one of the Clippercreek units, but his location is a carport
beside his home and the wire run is going to be about 50 feet from the other
side of the house so his best estimate has been $2,600 to install, permit,
etc., the full installation. (As I have said before the situation is
OBSCENE ! )

Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
It ended because they started using their Brains !
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Rush <[email protected]> wrote:

> I understand that we all like to exagerate... but J1772 compliant charging
> stations can be had for
> much less...
>
> I guess that Dennis is not a member of the EAA. On the front page of the
> webiste
> http://www.eaaev.org/, there is an ad for a Clippercreek J1772 charging
> station for a member price
> of $2250.
>
> Or you can buy a J1772 Plug and 8m of cord from me for $250, hook it up to
> a 220vac 30amp service,
> put in a GFI and have your own charging station. And if you want to hook it
> up to a 50 amp service,
> the wiring in my plug is 8 gauge and good for 60 amps. This is a little
> cheaper than the $2250,
> and since everybody keeps on plugging RV Camper plugs...... sounds like a
> good combo to me...
>
> Rush
> www.TucsonEV.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Scrivner" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 8:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Charger Roll out in Tucson
>
>
> I must say that $4500 for a charging station sounds a whole lot like
> profiteering to me. Why didn't everyone just standardize on a camper
> type connection like campers have been using for like a gazillion
> years? I don't get it.
> John Scrivner
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 8:41 AM, Dennis Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Nice thought John,
> > BUT, as Rush is likely aware the J1772 charging station equipment is
> > required to be UL approved and that is time consuming and expensive!
> Using
> > the Spa Panel and aftermarket charging cable with j1772 can be done by an
> > individual but woe to the professional who does it for another EVer... As
> it
> > is then a violation of the Electrical code and Business Regulation
> Statutes
> > in most municipalities. That is how it was intended as there is a LOT of
> > MONEY to be made in EV Charging Stations (Why does an EV j1772 setup cost
> > $4,500 installed; but, a 240 V. @30A. outlet for an RV(Camper) only costs
> > about $450 installed??? (And "Free" j1772 installations are being paid
> for
> > by Grants . But, that only is happening in 11 cities and the rest of us
> are
> > left out of that!) OK I'll jump down off my soap box now!
> >
> > Regards,
> > *Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
> > *www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
> > EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
> > *
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
> > It ended because they started using their Brains !
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 8:35 AM, John Scrivner <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> >> You seem to know a thing or two about how to charge EVs obviously. If
> >> you have access to a decent charger hardware platform you could lobby
> >> to get the charger station contract yourself since the other guys were
> >> obviously just selling vapor? You could probably help expedite things
> >> and maybe make a few bucks along the way.
> >> John Scrivner
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Rush <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> > Hello all,
> >> >
> >> > Tucson's Clean Cities Coalition had their bimonthly meeting yesterday
> and
> >> it was sort of depressing
> >> > for EV's.
> >> >
> >> > As I 'm sure you know... Ecotality of Phoenix won (?) a grant of $99.9
> >> Million to install about
> >> > 14,500 Level II charging stations and about 250 high voltage DC
> stations
> >> in Tucson, Phoenix, Ca, Or,
> >> > Tx etc (http://www.theevproject.com/). We expected the charging
> >> stations to start being installed
> >> > in conjunction with the Leaf roll out here. That's why I got the J1772
> >> Adapter Box, Inlets and Plugs
> >> > going at www.TucsonEV.com. The Leaf was introduced earlier this month
> >> here.
> >> >
> >> > Well Nissan has decided not to roll out the Leaf until there are at
> least
> >> 25% of the scheduled
> >> > charging stations installed in Tucson (25% of 250 = 70 stations). It
> >> turns out that Ecotality does
> >> > not have a product yet. In Calif, where they are also supposed to be
> >> installed, AeroViroment charger
> >> > stations are being installed, 'temporarily' I heard. The earliest that
> >> Tucson will get any is by
> >> > March. I've also heard that there are no contracts with any of the
> >> establishments that want the
> >> > charging stations on their property. So there are no electrical
> permits
> >> applied for, which will
> >> > further set back the installations.
> >> >
> >> > On a plus side, when the charging stations are installed, they will be
> >> free for 2 years! After that
> >> > period, the property owner will decide how to charge, but there is a
> push
> >> to keep them free.
> >> >
> >> > The Nissan dealership on Automall here in Tucson has 2 AeroViroment
> >> chargers, so Tucson now has
> >> > 4 -J1772 Charging stations... YEAH.....
> >> >
> >> > Rush
> >> > Tucson AZ
> >> > www.TucsonAZ.com
> >> > www.TEVA2.com
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> >> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> >> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> >> > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >> >
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> >> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> >> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> >> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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> >
>
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>
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Rush,
Please understand I am very encouraging of your efforts to make j1772
connections available to all us hobbyists, and your pricing is very
reasonable and I am in fact considering buying a set-up from you for my
personal EV.
I agree that COMPLIANT charging station would work for me. BUT I am as I
said a Hobbyist. And that is why.
Also if you look at the list of Educational Chapters of the EAA / EVA
you will see my name. (As "Adviser" to the students in the Chapter.)
[Oh, it is also in my "Signature Block" below...]
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*
Rush <[email protected]> wrote:

> I understand that we all like to exagerate... but J1772 compliant charging
> stations can be had for
> much less...
>
> I guess that Dennis is not a member of the EAA. On the front page of the
> webiste
> http://www.eaaev.org/, there is an ad for a Clippercreek J1772 charging
> station for a member price
> of $2250.
>
> Or you can buy a J1772 Plug and 8m of cord from me for $250, hook it up to
> a 220vac 30amp service,
> put in a GFI and have your own charging station. And if you want to hook it
> up to a 50 amp service,
> the wiring in my plug is 8 gauge and good for 60 amps. This is a little
> cheaper than the $2250,
> and since everybody keeps on plugging RV Camper plugs...... sounds like a
> good combo to me...
>
> Rush
> www.TucsonEV.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Scrivner" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 8:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Charger Roll out in Tucson
>
>
> I must say that $4500 for a charging station sounds a whole lot like
> profiteering to me. Why didn't everyone just standardize on a camper
> type connection like campers have been using for like a gazillion
> years? I don't get it.
> John Scrivner
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 8:41 AM, Dennis Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Nice thought John,
> > BUT, as Rush is likely aware the J1772 charging station equipment is
> > required to be UL approved and that is time consuming and expensive!
> Using
> > the Spa Panel and aftermarket charging cable with j1772 can be done by an
> > individual but woe to the professional who does it for another EVer... As
> it
> > is then a violation of the Electrical code and Business Regulation
> Statutes
> > in most municipalities. That is how it was intended as there is a LOT of
> > MONEY to be made in EV Charging Stations (Why does an EV j1772 setup cost
> > $4,500 installed; but, a 240 V. @30A. outlet for an RV(Camper) only costs
> > about $450 installed??? (And "Free" j1772 installations are being paid
> for
> > by Grants . But, that only is happening in 11 cities and the rest of us
> are
> > left out of that!) OK I'll jump down off my soap box now!
> >
> > Regards,
> > *Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
> > *www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
> > EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
> > *
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
> > It ended because they started using their Brains !
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 8:35 AM, John Scrivner <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> >> You seem to know a thing or two about how to charge EVs obviously. If
> >> you have access to a decent charger hardware platform you could lobby
> >> to get the charger station contract yourself since the other guys were
> >> obviously just selling vapor? You could probably help expedite things
> >> and maybe make a few bucks along the way.
> >> John Scrivner
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Rush <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> > Hello all,
> >> >
> >> > Tucson's Clean Cities Coalition had their bimonthly meeting yesterday
> and
> >> it was sort of depressing
> >> > for EV's.
> >> >
> >> > As I 'm sure you know... Ecotality of Phoenix won (?) a grant of $99.9
> >> Million to install about
> >> > 14,500 Level II charging stations and about 250 high voltage DC
> stations
> >> in Tucson, Phoenix, Ca, Or,
> >> > Tx etc (http://www.theevproject.com/). We expected the charging
> >> stations to start being installed
> >> > in conjunction with the Leaf roll out here. That's why I got the J1772
> >> Adapter Box, Inlets and Plugs
> >> > going at www.TucsonEV.com. The Leaf was introduced earlier this month
> >> here.
> >> >
> >> > Well Nissan has decided not to roll out the Leaf until there are at
> least
> >> 25% of the scheduled
> >> > charging stations installed in Tucson (25% of 250 = 70 stations). It
> >> turns out that Ecotality does
> >> > not have a product yet. In Calif, where they are also supposed to be
> >> installed, AeroViroment charger
> >> > stations are being installed, 'temporarily' I heard. The earliest that
> >> Tucson will get any is by
> >> > March. I've also heard that there are no contracts with any of the
> >> establishments that want the
> >> > charging stations on their property. So there are no electrical
> permits
> >> applied for, which will
> >> > further set back the installations.
> >> >
> >> > On a plus side, when the charging stations are installed, they will be
> >> free for 2 years! After that
> >> > period, the property owner will decide how to charge, but there is a
> push
> >> to keep them free.
> >> >
> >> > The Nissan dealership on Automall here in Tucson has 2 AeroViroment
> >> chargers, so Tucson now has
> >> > 4 -J1772 Charging stations... YEAH.....
> >> >
> >> > Rush
> >> > Tucson AZ
> >> > www.TucsonAZ.com
> >> > www.TEVA2.com
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> >> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> >> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> >> > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >> >
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> >> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> >> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> >> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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> >
>
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Dennis Miles wrote:
> One of my friends is buying a Leaf. In August they begin deliveries
> in Orlando. He has told me his dealer requires the receipt from a
> licensed Electrical Contractor of a J1772 unit with UL approval
> (Not just compliant!) before they will accept his order or make
> delivery.

He is being given the runaround. UL does not "approve" anything. They
will only "list" a product, or "recognize" a component.

UL is also not a legal requirement anywhere in the USA. UL is an
independent testing agency, and has no power to enforce or require it.
You can legally have other testing agencies do the work if you like.

You can only get a UL Listing on a complete product, like a battery
charger. Virtually no EV battery chargers have UL listings (even though
the NEC says you must use a "listed" charger). To get a UL Listing, a
manufacturer has to submit samples to UL, UL needs to have (or write) a
test proceedure, and the product has to be tested (and must comply) with
the test. The manufacturer is then entitled to put the "UL listed"
marking on the product. This proceedure costs thousands of dollars and
takes several months.

You can only get a UL Recognition on a component, like a charging cord
or J1772 connector. Again, the manufacturer must submit samples to UL, a
test plan has to be written, and the parts must be tested to be sure
they comply with it. If it passes, the manufacture is then entitled to
put the "UL Recognized" mark on it.

The main difference between Listed and Recognized is that a recognized
part has a long list of requirements that must also be met to use it.
For example, a connector's UL Recognition may include "... must be used
at less than 120vac, at less than 8 amps, in ambient temperatures of
0-70 deg.C, in dry clean locations, and with a UL recognized fuse or
circuit breaker in series."

On the "licensed electrical contractor", they can't require that a
contractor do the work -- they can only require that a licensed
contractor or equivalent *inspect* the work and agree that it meets
code. You or your friend can do the work yourself, or have anyone else
do it; then just get it inspected.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
And keep in mind too, J1772 is merely a recommendation ;-) As is the NEC
;-O

"Lee Hart" <[email protected]> wrote:

Dennis Miles wrote:
> One of my friends is buying a Leaf. In August they begin deliveries
> in Orlan...
He is being given the runaround. UL does not "approve" anything. They
will only "list" a product, or "recognize" a component.

UL is also not a legal requirement anywhere in the USA. UL is an
independent testing agency, and has no power to enforce or require it.
You can legally have other testing agencies do the work if you like.

You can only get a UL Listing on a complete product, like a battery
charger. Virtually no EV battery chargers have UL listings (even though
the NEC says you must use a "listed" charger). To get a UL Listing, a
manufacturer has to submit samples to UL, UL needs to have (or write) a
test proceedure, and the product has to be tested (and must comply) with
the test. The manufacturer is then entitled to put the "UL listed"
marking on the product. This proceedure costs thousands of dollars and
takes several months.

You can only get a UL Recognition on a component, like a charging cord
or J1772 connector. Again, the manufacturer must submit samples to UL, a
test plan has to be written, and the parts must be tested to be sure
they comply with it. If it passes, the manufacture is then entitled to
put the "UL Recognized" mark on it.

The main difference between Listed and Recognized is that a recognized
part has a long list of requirements that must also be met to use it.
For example, a connector's UL Recognition may include "... must be used
at less than 120vac, at less than 8 amps, in ambient temperatures of
0-70 deg.C, in dry clean locations, and with a UL recognized fuse or
circuit breaker in series."

On the "licensed electrical contractor", they can't require that a
contractor do the work -- they can only require that a licensed
contractor or equivalent *inspect* the work and agree that it meets
code. You or your friend can do the work yourself, or have anyone else
do it; then just get it inspected.


--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
...

| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Lee,
I have no reason to doubt your accuracy as I have built two homes as an
"Owner Builder" and actually did all the wiring myself in both of them
(Along with the carpentry, plumbing, interior finish, and lived in each
afterward. I usually subcontract out surveying, foundation
trenching,Air-conditioning /heating, and roofing. But insulation cost less
installed rather than buying the material and installing it myself.)
However here we are dealing with a car dealership and a sales contract
for a very desirable and unattainable product and the Dealer seems to be
using any excuse [valid or not] to placate and stall some very irritated
reservation holding purchasers; when in actuality they have no vehicles in
stock to deliver at this time.
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:

> Dennis Miles wrote:
> > One of my friends is buying a Leaf. In August they begin deliveries
> > in Orlando. He has told me his dealer requires the receipt from a
> > licensed Electrical Contractor of a J1772 unit with UL approval
> > (Not just compliant!) before they will accept his order or make
> > delivery.
>
> He is being given the runaround. UL does not "approve" anything. They
> will only "list" a product, or "recognize" a component.
>
> UL is also not a legal requirement anywhere in the USA. UL is an
> independent testing agency, and has no power to enforce or require it.
> You can legally have other testing agencies do the work if you like.
>
> You can only get a UL Listing on a complete product, like a battery
> charger. Virtually no EV battery chargers have UL listings (even though
> the NEC says you must use a "listed" charger). To get a UL Listing, a
> manufacturer has to submit samples to UL, UL needs to have (or write) a
> test proceedure, and the product has to be tested (and must comply) with
> the test. The manufacturer is then entitled to put the "UL listed"
> marking on the product. This proceedure costs thousands of dollars and
> takes several months.
>
> You can only get a UL Recognition on a component, like a charging cord
> or J1772 connector. Again, the manufacturer must submit samples to UL, a
> test plan has to be written, and the parts must be tested to be sure
> they comply with it. If it passes, the manufacture is then entitled to
> put the "UL Recognized" mark on it.
>
> The main difference between Listed and Recognized is that a recognized
> part has a long list of requirements that must also be met to use it.
> For example, a connector's UL Recognition may include "... must be used
> at less than 120vac, at less than 8 amps, in ambient temperatures of
> 0-70 deg.C, in dry clean locations, and with a UL recognized fuse or
> circuit breaker in series."
>
> On the "licensed electrical contractor", they can't require that a
> contractor do the work -- they can only require that a licensed
> contractor or equivalent *inspect* the work and agree that it meets
> code. You or your friend can do the work yourself, or have anyone else
> do it; then just get it inspected.
>
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
In this thread, Rush mentioned what he offers for sale.

One of the many EVangel activities I do in the background is related,
but I am not in the biz (but I make no money).

History:
A long time ago (1990's), like many working professionals, I had more
work-work than time to do DIY. Conductive EVSE [
http://www.pluginrecharge.com/p/evse-vendors.html ]
AVCONs were being installed and I saw a need to have an AVCON to 14-50
adapter box for the EV community to be able to purchase.

I asked a (now EAA Board member) person to build this adapter box. It
was not professional build but quite durable and functional. I bought
two of them for testing with my S-10 Blazer conversion EV's six
on-board chargers. After I reported to the EAA it worked great, it was
made available for purchase on the EAA merchandise page for the EV
community to buy for about $250 + S&H (they bumped the price up & up
as demand grew).

You can see again my prototyping-dollars helped everyone. You can
still see the image at the bottom of the EAA merchandise page
http://eaaev.org/eaamerchandise.html
- but the EAA does not sell that adapter box any longer).

*This adapter box had a handle that allowed me to secure the box to
my EV so I could leave my EV charging at public locations. I used a
cable lock to run through the box's handle and my front bumper (it
kept honest people, honest).

This arrangement allowed me to keep this critical EV charging
component from being ripped off, its connected location placed so it
was out of immediate view, and less likely to be rained on (I put
it just under the bumper).


Today:
Now that all EV drivers are to jump ship/upgrade to use today's J1772
EV charging standard, I sought out at similar, complete, ready to use
J1772 to 14-50 adapter box.

My research found a product but it lacked a way to secure it. So, I
worked with the company to communicate that a way to secure the box
was needed (add a good looking handle), and they accommodated my
request to offer a securable version of their product at about the
same cost. So, my efforts were to help the EV community consumers who
just want to buy a ready to use securable J1772 to 14-50 adapter box
so they can walk away from their EV while it is charging.

On page
http://modularevpower.com/Sales_J1772_to_NEMA_14-50_Adapters.htm
The latter two seem to be a better bang for the buck as they handle
more amps and cost less.

If you do a group purchase, the page reads like a quantity of 3 will
give a price break on the total purchase cost.

This company also sells on ebay
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=j1772+14-50&_sacat=0&_odkw=j1772&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313



Lastly,
There are and will be many functioning AVCON EVSE units out at public
EV charging locations. I am hoping that at first, only GM's
incompatible/unusable inductive EVSE units are replaced with the
new J1772 EVSE units in their place. It would be quite foolish to
remove working AVCONs leaving an missing EVSE head.

If that is true, for a while there will be a mix of Level2 EVSE:
-a growing number of the new J1772 EVSE
-plus the existing large quantity of working AVCON older EVSE

*I was not able to find a replacement AVCON to 15-40 adapter box to
fill the void when the EAA stopped selling them. I am hoping I will
be able to sweet talk this company to also offer an AVCON to 14-50
adapter box if they receive enough demand to justify their costs.

Qualifier:
Unlike Rush, I am not covering costs nor taking money from the
above company's business for these efforts or this post.
I have notified the EV community of what EVangel efforts I have made
for the benefit of all.






{brucedp.150m.com}

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Bruce wrote -

> My research found a product but it lacked a way to secure it. So, I
> worked with the company to communicate that a way to secure the box
> was needed (add a good looking handle), and they accommodated my
> request to offer a securable version of their product at about the
> same cost. So, my efforts were to help the EV community consumers who
> just want to buy a ready to use securable J1772 to 14-50 adapter box
> so they can walk away from their EV while it is charging.

I couldn't agree with you more Bruce, I've also been asked to put a substantive handle on mine so
that it can be locked down. And I think that seeing an EV being charged with a chained up box is
pretty laughable. But I suggested something better, well actually two choices

1) You can get the Adapter box, install it in your car behind your licence plate and hard wire it
into your charging system. You keep your existing charging inlet, so you now have 2 charging inlets.

2) You can get the Adapter box, install it in the place of your existing 14-50 inlet (or whatever),
get a J1772 Plug and cord and hook up them up to a Junction box, 220vac breaker and GFI, 30 or 50
amp serivce (if your charger can take 50 amps) and use the J1772 inlet all the time at home and at
local J1772 Charging stations.

So while I think its great that you personally endorse one product over another, I just wanted to
let the world know that there is not just one solution...

> Qualifier:
> Unlike Rush, I am not covering costs nor taking money from the
> above company's business for these efforts or this post.
> I have notified the EV community of what EVangel efforts I have made
> for the benefit of all.

My qualifier - I'm not in this for the business... I started a long time ago researching the J1772,
(see www.TEVA2.com/J1772.html); when the spec was published, I bought a copy and sent it out to lots
of people; I tried to get Ecotality, Chargepoint, AeroVironment, Clipper Creeek to get some Inlets
so that we/I could make up some Adapter boxes; I've sent out some free inlets and plugs to various
people in the hopes that they can use them for our common good; the time spent and expense is not
making me much of a profit, in fact in the end I fully expect to loose $$ on this venture.

Let me just paraphrase something I heard somewhere - you can please some of the people all the time,
and you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of
the time...

So if you want an 1722 Adapter box, or a J1772 Plug with cord, or a J1772 Plug, or a J1772 Inlet
with cord, or a J1772 Inlet with cord, let me know.

Rush Dougherty
www.TucsonEV.com

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