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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Eric, I disagree. How many of any particular model does a manufacturer
sell? An EV model could easily sell as many as an ICE model. For folks
where an EV cannot meet their needs, a plug-in hybrid would be a
solution. I'm on the RAV4 EV list as well. The owners frequently tell
of encounters with people who never knew highway capable EVs existed
(this is in California, where most were). Next, they ask where they
can buy one.

I believe what it will take for EV sales to take off is for people to
actually start seeing them on the road. For example, I hope to be one
of the first in my area to get a Leaf. I know I will start getting a
lot of questions from people who know little or nothing about EVs.
However, it will remain a curiosity until they can go to any Nissan
dealer, test drive one, and drive off in one the same day.

An EV does not need to compete with a gas car on all terms. In the
near term, gas cars, including plug-in hybrids, will be superior for
long distance travel. However, the EV can be shown to be superior for
commuting. In multicar families, at least one could be an EV. For a
single person who only wants one car, he/she will need to do an
analysis. If you only take one trip a year, you may want to rent a car
for that trip. You will always be taking a trip in a new car, likely
one you couldn't afford if you had to buy it. If you take a trip every
weekend, a pure EV is not for you.

Before I get too far off on a tangent, let me just stop and reiterate
that I believe there will be plenty of buyers to justify several EV
models from several manufacturers, and I expect the market to grow
faster than the supply, at least for the next 5 years or so.
Hopefully, after that, the supply will start to catch up.

On 9/18/10, Electric Blue auto convertions <[email protected]> wr=
ote:
>
>
> Am I reading your post right Eric?? you dont own any kind of EV???? I read
> in your post that most people only have one car? In kansas you better own=
at
> lest 3 or your some place else, like the 56 floor in manhatten, where
> parking is about 400$ a month. I have 5 vehicles, looking at a 6th, but
> thats just me. I said I only need to 15 miles a day, why should ANYONE ne=
ed
> 350 mile range if they dont need it. 95 % of the conversions I do are back
> and forth to work driving,
>
> Yes I get the idiots that call about converting their F450 cabnit crane
> truck that has to go at highway speeds and get 400 mile range, I just hang
> up on them, not even worth talking to them.. another question, to Eric, w=
hy
> do you beat down EVs so much ..seems to me, and I probly am wrong, but wh=
en
> some one post something about an EV, you come back and flush their toilet=
on
> them, Please tell me Im wrong .
>
>
>
> If EVs are so unreliable why am I building so many, I can ofer anything in
> an EV that any new car manufacture can. I have done cross over SUV, large
> SUVs, sport cars, large and small cars/trucks, If I can only make 1% o=
f a
> 100 billion $ Im on the train right now. any one would.. Remember, peo=
ple
> who want EVs will buy them or build them their selvs. they wont wait for =
GM
> or Ford to do it. thats the way its always been. Its not about cost , its
> about WHEN can I have it, when they come to my shop.
>
>
>
> ev-blue.com
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Eric wrote:
[snip]
>I'm also a realist, and know that will not happen until people
get busy and actually build an EV that can go head to head with an ICE.
Period. And when I say head-to-head, I mean a race, cross country, or
like the Daytona 500 or some other long distance or endurance race. Only
then will the EV shine like we all know it can.<

Geez... How about Formula One? Do EVs need to dominate that before
being taken seriously?

You may not of heard of NEDRA. Here are a couple of short vids to get
you started...
Last weekend-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huXZcNU24uc
10 minute documentary-
http://www.opb.org/programs/ofg/segments/view/1686

>Building conversions is one thing, building a production car is quite
another. I'm not sure how to do it all, but I have a good starting
point. I can talk all day, but until I actually build a car no one will
listen right?<

At least then you would be speaking from experience rather than inexperience.

>Builders know
that EVs will out perform an ICE any day of the week and twice on
Sunday, but all that is no good if you can't get the message out there
to the masses.>

Presently this is far from being true. Again... a little experience
(and some more research) and folks on this list (some with _decades_
of EV experience) would take you more seriously. Otherwise.. some of
your arguments will continue to sound like they are coming out of your
@$$.

>Then race it against an ICE. You don't even
need to WIN the race, simply finishing the race will prove to the masses
that EVs rule.<

Um... NEDRA? How about the Buckeye Bullet?

>I want to see EVs in every driveway and on every highway!<

Somehow I doubt this. Are you wit us? Or agin us? :)

Things are changing rapidly. A year from now lithium-based batteries
will be much more affordable and available (try to buy a new ebike
without lithium batteries now). Once that happens and more and more
folks are using them the range and performance issues that folks in
this industry have been dealing with forever will slowly evaporate.

If the same kind of $ were tossed at EV racing as they are at ICE
based racing the playing field would be leveled quite rapidly.

There ya go. Win on Sunday, sell on Monday.


lektwik




On 9/18/10, Eric <[email protected]> wrote:
> No I don't own an EV. ;)
>
> I didn't say all EVs were unreliable. I said short range EVs were
> unreliable for longer range travel. Maybe not in so many words, but that
> is the gist of it. An NEV is one thing, a pure EV built to compete with
> and ICE auto is quite another.
>
> You're wrong... ;) (you're not really wrong, but you told me to tell you
> that) I'm not dumping on you or anyone for the sake of it. I'm simply
> pointing out that to advance into the mainstream market people need to
> get their collective heads out of their collective boxes of conversions
> and educating the public about EVs if they ever hope to compete in
> mainstream markets.
>
> "...1% of a 100 billion $..." This is barely enough to get any attention
> from mainstream at all.
>
> I'm sure you would love to see everyone in the world driving an EV. Me
> too. But I'm also a realist, and know that will not happen until people
> get busy and actually build an EV that can go head to head with an ICE.
> Period. And when I say head-to-head, I mean a race, cross country, or
> like the Daytona 500 or some other long distance or endurance race. Only
> then will the EV shine like we all know it can.
>
> Building conversions is one thing, building a production car is quite
> another. I'm not sure how to do it all, but I have a good starting
> point. I can talk all day, but until I actually build a car no one will
> listen right?
>
> Building NEVs I think is good for introducing people to to concept of
> EVs. Slowly... Building limited range EVs (60-100 miles) is also good.
> It's very good in fact. But it's not GREAT! See my point? Tesla has it
> right. They know marketing, builders don't (typically). Builders know
> that EVs will out perform an ICE any day of the week and twice on
> Sunday, but all that is no good if you can't get the message out there
> to the masses.
>
> The best way to do that, is to build a real production car instead of
> chanting how good EVs are. Then race it against an ICE. You don't even
> need to WIN the race, simply finishing the race will prove to the masses
> that EVs rule.
>
> Check out my post earlier on the numbers of EVs on the road, compared to
> the number of ICE vehicles.
> http://evdl.org/archive/#nabble-tt2544144|a2544718
>
> EVs needs publicists and marketers who understands the capabilities of
> EVs and who knows how to get that message across in the most powerful
> way that will appeal to the masses.
>
> There are 199+ Million drivers in the USA, how many are driving EVs?
>
> I want to see EVs in every driveway and on every highway!
>
> Regards,
> Eric
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 9/18/2010 7:03 AM, Electric Blue auto convertions wrote:
>>
>> Am I reading your post right Eric?? you dont own any kind of EV???? I read
>> in your post that most people only have one car? In kansas you better own
>> at lest 3 or your some place else, like the 56 floor in manhatten, where
>> parking is about 400$ a month. I have 5 vehicles, looking at a 6th, but
>> thats just me. I said I only need to 15 miles a day, why should ANYONE
>> need 350 mile range if they dont need it. 95 % of the conversions I do are
>> back and forth to work driving,
>>
>> Yes I get the idiots that call about converting their F450 cabnit crane
>> truck that has to go at highway speeds and get 400 mile range, I just hang
>> up on them, not even worth talking to them.. another question, to Eric,
>> why do you beat down EVs so much ..seems to me, and I probly am wrong, but
>> when some one post something about an EV, you come back and flush their
>> toilet on them, Please tell me Im wrong .
>>
>>
>>
>> If EVs are so unreliable why am I building so many, I can ofer anything in
>> an EV that any new car manufacture can. I have done cross over SUV, large
>> SUVs, sport cars, large and small cars/trucks, If I can only make 1% of a
>> 100 billion $ Im on the train right now. any one would.. Remember, people
>> who want EVs will buy them or build them their selvs. they wont wait for
>> GM or Ford to do it. thats the way its always been. Its not about cost ,
>> its about WHEN can I have it, when they come to my shop.
>>
>>
>>
>> ev-blue.com
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
If you want a 300+ mile EV Eric, develop a quick system for swapping out a
chunk of your battery pack for a gen set.
And yes, there are most likely other lists for that.

but seriously, if you want to own *one* car, build an EV and then build in
some sort of removable gen set, there are a few
people who have done it, its not rocket science. Talk to Steve Clunn. I
believe there was also a canadian guy who did it with his truck.

If you can't get your head around the 45-100 mile range of an EV, build your
own series hybrid, its just as manageable
as building just an EV, if a little ;) more expensive. or for that matter
buy a volt.

Happy building.
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Re: [EVDL] EV Fatigue

Maybe we should see that EV drivers get the image of
being patriottic?
It makes more sense and it might appeal to a much
larger crowd.
Also, in cases that the EV was not the most convenient
choise (waiting for a recharge halfway the trip) the
owners might still feel good because they do it for
the safety and security (if not financial survival)
of their country....

How's that for an EV benefit?

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 6:48 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Fatigue

On 17 Sep 2010 at 10:30, Eric wrote:

> The problem with EVs are that those in the EV world are trying to
"Fix"
> something that's not broken in the GAS powered world.

EVs are cleaner, quieter, smoother. We know that. But now think. Out
on the highway, where people do most of their driving, what can an EV do
that an ICE can't?

Well, let's see. They can run on energy you make yourself, with PV
panels or wind machines.

And how many people have PV panels and wind machines in their back
yards, or expect to have them any time soon? How many who do will be
prepared to buy more in order to power an EV?

OK, what else can they do that an ICE can't, that the average consumer
actually cares about?

Uh.

I'm stuck. Help me out here.

I think Eric has it right. EVs solve problems that Joe and Jane Average
don't perceive as problems.

On the other hand, look at Ebikes. They're an EV success story because
they offer something that the products they compete with, regular
bicycles, don't
- the ability to dodge excruciating standstill city traffic without
breaking a sweat or having to be particularly fit.

Few people expect to go more than perhaps 10 miles on a bicycle, so the
additional range of gas-powered scooters doesn't matter. In fact, I'd
guess (though I have no figures) that most Ebike buyers never even
consider gas scooters. They choose Ebikes instead of or in place of a
regular bicycle.

Look at the factory hybrids, too. All the surveys tell us that MPG
isn't very important to vehicle buyers, so why do they have respectable
sales numbers?

Because the factory hybrids appeal on other bases. They're indisputably
high tech cars for high tech people. Even though they get all their
energy from gasoline, they're perceived as "green" cars to and for folks
who think of themselves as environmentalists. So they have a natural
constituency, small though it may be.

In the US, most vehicle sales are ICE powered midsize sedans, SUVs, and
crossover wagons. They're essentially commodity vehicles, produced in
massive quantities with a keen manufacturer's eye to cost control.
Competition is pretty brisk.

However, most vehicle manufacturers also offer speciality vehicles.
They include sporty / performance cars, true offroad vehicles,
conversion vans, RV bodies, and - yes - hybrids. They're built in small
quantities for small numbers of people with specialized needs and (dare
I say it) for fussy owners. They thus sell at generally higher prices
(and margins).

I expect that's the category that EVs will fit into, IF they're ever
actually offered (I'm still skeptical).

That's also the reason that we shouldn't expect to see really affordable
prices on EVs (at least not very good ones). Like recycled paper
towels, organic apples, and "natural" dish soap, specialty vehicles are
mostly advertised and sold to higher-income folks. These customers have
accepted the idea of paying more for "green" products.

>
> When you make it a no-brainer, the masses will descend on EV car lots
> with cash in hand. They will trip over each other to buy an EV only
> when you provide a dependable EV for them to buy.

Here I think Eric contradicts his own argument. As he suggested above,
for mass adoption, EVs also have to offer something that comparable ICE
powered vehicles don't and can't. What would that be?

Lower operating cost when fuel is expensive? Well, maybe. That does
generate some increased interest in EVs. We've seen it here many times.

When gasoline approached $4 a gallon a while back, subscriptions to the
EVDL skyrocketed.

Still, we've seen that as long as supply keeps up with demand, the vast
majority of ICE owners will just grumble and pay the higher prices.

However, I think there is something fuel-related that could really make
EVs take off. It's motor fuel that's not just expensive, but >hard to
get.<

During the 1970s fuel crunch, it wasn't so much the rising cost of
gasoline that generated interest in EVs (and bicycles), it was the
inconvenience of buying gasoline. In many areas you had to wait for
hours in a long queue at one of the few open filling stations. When you
finally got to the pump, you might find a limit of 8 or fewer gallons -
about 120 miles' worth for the average car then. Who wants to go
through that 2 or 3 times a week?

To make it worse, in some states or areas, you could only buy gasoline
on odd or even days of the month (depending on the last digit of your
license plate). You had to plan your trips round the days you could buy
gasoline.

This was enough of a nuisance to drivers that quite a few college
students made beer money by offering to sit in well-heeled owners' cars
in gas lines while the owners did something more useful.

Americans HATE things that take away their leisure time. (I guess those
in other lands, too.) Think about it, and think about how easy it is to
fill up an EV.

> Build [reliable, long range EVs] and they will come. Stop trying to
> educate people. They don't care about education, they WANT what gets
> the job done.

Until ICEVs >can't< get the job done, I think EVs will be of interest to
a relatively small minority.

But if small, it seems to be a surprisingly enthusiastic group. And as
I said above, with the right kind of advertising, the automakers can
sell EVs to this minority - if they choose to do so. We shall see.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Eric wrote:
> I didn't say all EVs were unreliable. I said short range EVs were
> unreliable for longer range travel.

I don't think "unreliable" is the word you want. How about "unsuitable"?

Unreliable means that it would break down. A short-range EV that is
driven a long distance doesn't break down; it simply needs to be
recharged some number of times to make the entire trip. For example,
Raymond Carr drove his 1912 Baker Electric cross-country (3100 miles),
It was reliable (it didn't break down). But it needed to be recharged
every 50 miles or so.

Unsuitable means that while you can do it, it's going to take a while.
The trip took from May 28 to July 4, 1995! :)

> to advance into the mainstream market people need to
> get their collective heads out of their collective boxes of conversions
> and educating the public about EVs if they ever hope to compete in
> mainstream markets.

You have to crawl before you walk. And walk before you run. And run
before you can ride a bike, and ride a bike before you drive a car...
It's a long slow process.

The pundits and nay-sayers in the automotive and oil industries are
shouting that EV's can't work. We can't hope to shout louder than they
can. But we can build EVs that really do work, and *show* people that
they work. That's how you "educate" the public -- one driver at a time.

The production capacity to build EVs is also very low right now. There
is no point to working people into a frenzy to buy EVs that don't exist.
That would only encourage a lot of shoddy products from unscrupulous
companies just out to make a fast buck, and sneak into the night with
the money. We have had *many* examples of such behavior in the past.

> I'm sure you would love to see everyone in the world driving an EV. Me
> too. But I'm also a realist, and know that will not happen until people
> get busy and actually build an EV that can go head to head with an ICE.

No; that is basically impossible. No one, not even Tesla, has enough
money to invent a completely new EV that can beat the long-established
auto company's ICEs.

The only way it can be done is one step at a time. You build a mediocre
EV that's only of interest to a thousand customers. That gives you the
finances and experience to build a better EV, and find 10,000 customers.
Then you can build an even better EV that finds 100,000 customers. Only
when you are up around 100,000 a year can you begin to achieve some
economies of scale to actually make money, and begin to compete
head-to-head with ICEs.

The perfect is the enemy of the good. If everyone waits for the perfect
EV before buying anything, we will be waiting forever! No company can
ever get started.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
> If you want a 300+ mile EV Eric, develop a quick system for swapping out a
> chunk of your battery pack for a gen set.

If you want a 300+mile EV right now, then help us build the Sunrise EV2!
We *know* that Sunrises have been driven over 300 miles on a charge, and
that was 10 years ago on nimh batteries. With today's lithiums, there is
no question that range would be even more!

What's holding us back is money. We are developing this out of our own
pockets, on our own time. It's slow going...

--
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814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Lee Hart wrote:
> > If you want a 300+ mile EV Eric, develop a quick system for swapping out a
> > chunk of your battery pack for a gen set.
>
> If you want a 300+mile EV right now, then help us build the Sunrise EV2!
> We *know* that Sunrises have been driven over 300 miles on a charge, and
> that was 10 years ago on nimh batteries. With today's lithiums, there is
> no question that range would be even more!

Not too long ago, I figured that the SRII would hold 50 (or was it 55?)
300ah cells. 48+ KWH. Since the SRII is bigger, heavier, and has
beefier running gear, it might not do better than 200wh/m. Still...
~250 miles! Or, are you shooting for 150wh/m? What did the SRIs
achieve?

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 6 days 14 hours 17 minutes

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
On 18 Sep 2010 at 15:12, Lee Hart wrote:

> We *know* that Sunrises have been driven over 300 miles on a charge,
> and that was 10 years ago on nimh batteries.

But the Sunrise EV2 differs significantly from that car. The original
Sunrise was front-drive and used Dodge Neon and Geo Metro suspension and
driveline components. IIRC, the body was light enough that two men could
lift it.

The Sunrise EV2 is rear drive and uses Thunderbird parts. The windows are
now all glass, rather than polycarbonate. I seem to recall that the doors
and/or rear hatch are now standard auto parts made of steel, rather than the
carbon fiber Solectria used. Even the wheels are bigger and heavier. There
is no way that the car hasn't gained significant weight.

Also, there's no telling what the modifications you've made to the design
have done to its aerodynamics.

I don't mean to challenge or belittle your efforts in any way. The Sunrise
was and is a fine piece of work, and rescuing it is a noble enterprise. I
have infinite respect for what you're doing - it's unquestionably the right
thing.

However, the original was, from what I've read, highly tuned for
efficiency. That was Worden's watchword in all his designs. His quest for
efficiency is reportedly one reason that he spent more to fit a custom
lightweight aluminum transaxle to the Force, for example, rather than using
the factory Geo Metro transaxle (which he DID do in the short-lived BLDC
motor version).

I don't doubt that the Sunrise EV2 will be more suitable as a kit car. It
will probably have more creature comforts and be more enjoyable to drive. If
that puts more of them on the road, it's obviously a good thing. Whether it
will prove to have the same range as the original Solectria Sunrise design,
though, is still an open question.

If, using lithium batteries of about the same mass, the Sunrise EV2 can
match the original Sunrise's NiMH performance - able to drive from Boston to
New York at highway speeds on one charge with energy left over - I think we
can call it a success.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Lee Hart wrote:
>> imagine... what if GM had dusted off the molds
>> for the Geo Metro, bought a bunch of commodity lead-acid batteries, DC
>> series motors, and controller, and built the same sort of EV conversion
>> that many others have done.

EVDL Administrator wrote:
> If they did that, GM would be building an EV similar to a Solectria Force.
> (They could probably even license the Solectria design if they wanted to.)
> Back when a Geo Metro cost about $7-10k, Solectria sold a few hundred Forces
> at $30-36k. As astute observers right here on the EVDL said at the time,
> "Who the heck would pay $30k for a Geo Metro???"

Except that Solectria was making their cars by hand, and had to buy
complete cars at retail prices to convert. And, Solectria was using
their custom AC motors and controllers. These things drove the price up
considerably.

GM could do these things, too. But they should only do them if it made
economic sense. Otherwise, stick with commodity motors and controllers
for the initial offering.

> I'm sorry, but these just are not people who usually buy Geo Metros.

Then maybe the Metro isn't the right car. GM has *hundreds* of cars to
choose from, already designed and tooled. And, they are exceptionally
good at arm-twisting suppliers to get rock-bottom prices on the things
they buy from outside.

> Why was the 2004+ Toyota Prius so much more successful than the earlier
> Prius, the Honda Insight, Honda Civic Hybrid, and even Toyota's other hybrid
> cars and SUVs?

Part of it was that Toyota is very conservative. They didn't *want* to
sell large numbers of Prius until "they were ready". They deliberately
dipped a toe in the market and built a few hundred (1997), slowly
ramping up to ten thousand (2001), then 100,000 (2004).

Toyota was also the richest car company in the world. They could afford
to go slow, take their time, perfect it, and get everything "just
right". GM could have followed this route back in the early 1990's with
the EV-1; but they didn't. Have you read "The Car That Could"? Toyota
even offered to sell GM the Prius for the US market (just as GM had
rebadged Toyotas as Chevy Novas in previous years); but GM refused!

> With all due respect, the ElectroMetro Lee is suggesting here is several
> notches below even the Honda Civic Hybrid, which you could quite reasonably
> think of as a Civic converted to hybrid.

Yes. But, today's GM is several notches below Honda. GM is a company on
the verge of death. Seeking perfection at this late date could well be
the death of them!

> A series motor EV doesn't drive like a normal car. The motor's torque curve
> is very different from an ICE's, and it has no natural coasting drag. I
> guess these driving quirks can be ameliorated with proper controller design
> and mating, and maybe some mechanical tweaks, but then you're getting into
> custom design and not using off the shelf components any more. GM could
> also use an induction motor and controller instead, but then the cost would
> probably be higher.

I'd do what Wayne does; keep the alternator, and belt drive it off the
traction motor as your "DC/DC converter". It works, GM already has all
the parts, and it simulates an ICE's engine braking.

> So a low cost ElectroMetro would not only have very limited range, it might
> also feel rather alien and uncomfortable to most buyers.

There is certainly room for a lot of tweaking. If GM was going to buy
(say) a Curtis controller for their ElectroMetro, they would certainly
demand that Curtis custom tailor it for their needs. And, don't you
think that Curtis would fall all over themselves to do anything that GM
asks, dreaming of more sales than they have made in their entire life?

> But my concern is that an EV that looked like a cheap car, had limited
> capabilities, and drove oddly would immediately be branded a turkey. GM
> would offer it for a few years, then quietly drop it from the line. It would
> be thought of as yet another scar on GM's reputation, joining the Oldsmobile
> Diesels, the Corvair, and the Vega. Certainly GM have been careless with
> their rep, but this is the kind of choice that gets stockholders up in arms
> and ends up with managers being fired. I can't see them doing such a thing.

All this is true. But, GM still sold millions of these turkeys. They
kept the company in business, the factories open, the workers paid.

GM should be developing their next generation high-tech EV in parallel
with this ElectroMetro EV. But it will take years to perfect; years that
GM won't have unless they do something *today*.

I'm reminded of that old line... When you're up to your ass in
alligators, it's hard to remember that your job is to drain the swamp.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
>
> Show drivers what EVs are capable of and the world will follow.
>
> Take it to the next level with an endurance competition against and ICE
> car. 1/4 mile is one thing, cross country is quite another.


We're spending a lot of time examining exactly what EVs are not good for at
the moment.
Battery technology will catch up and prices per kwh will come down, we will
be driving
a vehicle with tesla like range in the near future. Just hang on and wait.

And as for types of EV racing, theres an EV that competes in the Pikes Peak
hill climb,
there is an entire EV series in the UK, (www.evcup.com)
And as for your yearning for an endurance racer EV ... here it is:
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/05/racing-green-endurance-srzero/

Showing drivers what EVs are capable of ... well, if some one who reads this
list doesn't
know about the SRZero, what chance does Joe Public have?

just jump in, many of us have hit that point and realized what EVs have
done,
can do and will continue to do, even if we haven't even built one yet.
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Eric wrote:
> Show drivers what EVs are capable of and the world will follow.

That's what NEDRA and the electric drag racers have been doing.

> Take it to the next level with an endurance competition against
> an ICE car. 1/4 mile is one thing, cross country is quite another.
> Can it be done?

Sure! You just have to write the rules to make it possible.

Any EV could cross the country at speed if you had the logistics to swap
in a fresh battery pack every 30 miles or so along the road.

Or, you set up the rules to allow only X amount of fuel (with
conversions factors for gasoline, diesel, electric, hamburgers, etc.)
See who can go the farthest and the fastest with a fixed fuel allowance.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
My disagreement was that I don't believe you have to compete directly
with ICEs on what they do best, for example cross country trips. That
is where ICEs excel and EVs fall short. It just isn't what EVs are
designed to do, at least not yet.

How about a different kind of competition. Put an EV and a gas car
each in a tightly sealed garage, and a driver in each. Start each.
See which driver can remain in the car the longest.

Dave

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
*Sorry Dave, but the driver of the gas car would win, as he would spend the
rest of his life in the idling car. the electric car driver would last until
he needed a bathroom break.LOL :)<))*
*
As a former New Car Salesman, I can (But I'm not supposed to) tell you
People buy a vehicle that will carry enough people for their normal use and
enough cargo for their normal use (Groceries, Golf Bag, whatever) but, MOST
IMPORTANT is IT MUST IMPRESS the relatives, neighbors, friends, and
co-workers. Everything about us is our TOYS impress others, a dog must have
a pedigree, a home must impress all who drive by it, the kids must be "Honor
Students", That three year old "Econo-box"is nearly worthless because it
won't IMPRESS ! If Ford and GM wanted to sell a lot of electrics, they would
be selling Lincoln Electrics, and Cadillac Ultra-volts. And, yes the
Marketing Guys will be mad at me...
Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles (Director) E.V.T.I. inc.
www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM (Adviser) EVTI-EVA Education Chapter
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------------------------------
*
*
Dave Davidson <[email protected]> wrote:
*
>
> *My disagreement was that I don't believe you have to compete directly
> with ICEs on what they do best, for example cross country trips. That
> is where ICEs excel and EVs fall short. It just isn't what EVs are
> designed to do, at least not yet.
>
> How about a different kind of competition. Put an EV and a gas car* *
> each in a tightly sealed garage, and a driver in each. Start each.
> See which driver can remain in the car the longest.
> * *
> Dave*
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D
It=92s estimated that the existing U.S. electrical grid has sufficient
capacity
to fully fuel three-quarters of the nation=92s 217 million passenger
vehicles.
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
On 19 Sep 2010 at 11:05, Dave Hymers wrote:

> Battery technology will catch up and prices per kwh will come
> down, we will be driving a vehicle with tesla like range in the near future.
> Just hang on and wait.

Haven't I heard this somewhere before?

;-)

Sorry, David, I'm not picking on you. Really! But in all the years I've
followed EVs, I've heard this statement over and over again. "Just wait,
the Miracle Battery is over the next hill!" But then we get there, and
somehow the REAL Miracle Battery is over the NEXT hill instead.

Well, yes, THIS battery over THIS hill is indeed a little better than the
one over the last hill. But it's still not quite good enough for Joe and
Jane Average. Because if you ask them, they'll tell you they need 150 mile
range. Then when you deliver that range, they'll tell you they need 300
mile range.

It has ever been so. It may forever be so. I fervently hope not, but I
have yet to see any real change.

At some point, to paraphrase Lee, you have to quit holding out for the
perfect and build the "good enough." That applies to both hobbyists and
manufacturers alike.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Hymers" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV fatigue


> >
>> Show drivers what EVs are capable of and the world will follow.
>>
>> Take it to the next level with an endurance competition against and ICE
>> car. 1/4 mile is one thing, cross country is quite another.
>
>
> We're spending a lot of time examining exactly what EVs are not good for
> at
> the moment.
> Battery technology will catch up and prices per kwh will come down, we
> will
> be driving
> a vehicle with tesla like range in the near future. Just hang on and wait.
>
> And as for types of EV racing, theres an EV that competes in the Pikes
> Peak? Hah? Didya see the crash of the DRIVERLESS car?Doing the Peak's
> run?Scary! They SAY that it has cennsers sboard, etc? WILL it SEE s blind
> sheeple, buy badingding along on a bike?MAYBE the train at the
> crossing?But al heast it WON'T be on the cell fone?I like the Mecedes set
> that will STOP yur car BEFORE rending another car!?

Sea Ya, old ludite here.


> hill climb,
> there is an entire EV series in the UK, (www.evcup.com)
> And as for your yearning for an endurance racer EV ... here it is:
> http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/05/racing-green-endurance-srzero/
>
> Showing drivers what EVs are capable of ... well, if some one who reads
> this
> list doesn't
> know about the SRZero, what chance does Joe Public have?
>
> just jump in, many of us have hit that point and realized what EVs have
> done,
> can do and will continue to do, even if we haven't even built one yet.BUT
> we FLY by gas stations! I give them an "OOGA"sulute!
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
>
> At some point, to paraphrase Lee, you have to quit holding out for the
> perfect and build the "good enough." That applies to both hobbyists and
> manufacturers alike.


Everybody else can wait for an "affordable" Tesla S
As soon as I have my financials in order I'm building an S-10 with a lead
pack :)
I KNOW its good enough for me, I can easily make the most important trips I
have on one charge.

Everyone else (nobody on this list!) that doesn't want to figure out how far
away everything is away from their house
(Its so hard!!! ...) can wait. :p :)
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