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Discussion Starter #1
I agree with David, not many people in this country give a hoot about a simple EV, that want GIZMOs in their cars, they want APPs, to do almost everything but make coffee and can give a damn about range. Why are large SUV sales always up?? who knows, When oil hit 140$ a tub, the sales went down a bit, but its selling at a price thats very low now.
The Volt,, thats a laff LOLOL just another over hyped hybrid, and 40 miles on batts WOW that cost about a billion $ to develop, Ever see what the Leaf will do with milage Vs range at speeds???? they dont want that let out, But its at very very slow speeds that it gets the 100 mile range . Remember, advertising a new product involves lots of almost lieing LOLOL.

Give people a few almost good facts and they will rush out and buy anything and think the world has landed at their feet. its all BS. any one can build their own conversion that will get 100 miles on LEAD, if they go 15 MPH LOLOL . Cup holders, DVD players, GPS, internet service, heart monitors, sonar and radar and a quad 50 mounted on top is with the sheep want. in fact I dont think they know what they want , there given this garbage to buy and havent a clue what it is or how it works !!!

Electric vehicles are for people who know what they want, and will jump through hoops to buy one, 99% of the car buyers will still buy gas guzzlers and shoe boxes to show off to every one. IMHO, I would never buy a new car or truck, who needs more software than the space shuttle or the Lunar lander. who need 22 inch tires. or seating for 8 , if you only have 2 people to drive around . and range for most people is mega BS, if you know you only need maybe 30 miles a day, why even try and go more that 100 miles...Rent a car and drive there if you have to go 200 miles or more. My ElCamino gets about 80 miles at normal speeds..BUT !!!! I only need to go 15 miles a day. But I can get there at over 120 MPH LOLOL But thats just me LOLOL

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Discussion Starter #2
Eric <[email protected]> wrote:

> People don't want to be told what they want. They "know" what they want
> already. They buy what "gets the job done", and in style. This is why
> EVs are not popular. (yet).
>

People are making bad investment decisions (buying a huge ICE car) based on
faulty information. (or lack of any)
If people where told that by 2015 gas will most likely surpass the $4/gal
mark in a hurry they might
think a little different. Oh, I guess I don't need to seat 8 or be able to
tow 5,000lbs.


> EVs don't get the job done. Simple as that. No offense... But that's the
> truth. Build an EV that goes 350 miles on a charge (just like an ICE)
> with the infrastructure to keep going, and you'll have a winner. Don't
> forget about STYLE! People probably won't drive an EV with a 1000 mile
> range if it looks like a Yugo. Who want to be seen driving in that?
>
> The problem with EVs are that those in the EV world are trying to "Fix"
> something that's not broken in the GAS powered world. In other words,
> people will ALWAYS choose an ICE powered vehicle with range and
> dependability over an EV with 40-100 mile range and questionable
> dependability. Range anxiety anyone? It's been discussed at length here
> on this list, and by every other proponent for EV technology for years.
> Fear is a powerful demotivator.
>

I will have to respectfully add an addendum to that. Fear is a de-motivator
for purchasing an EV IF you know
you'll always have an alternative, which in the strictest sense is *not*
true for everyone.
One of the biggest motivators for me to get an EV on the road IS actually
fear. Fear of being stuck in the lines for gas, which are, as no one is
being explicitly told, just around the corner.

The energy density of hydrocarbons powering our cars will one day be a thing
of the past, that is why I mentioned the ants and the grasshopper. Get busy
building EVs with what we have now, despite the range problems.
The only question is how many grasshoppers will catch on before its utterly
obvious EVs are going to be king.
You'll learn to make that 45mi range work. And work hard.

Again, apologies for the pessimism but after looking at these issues even
for the little amount of time I have (maybe 3yrs?)
that's where I've arrived at. Ok, I guess I'm done fear mongering.
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Discussion Starter #3
Electric Blue auto conversions wrote:
> I agree with David, not many people in this country give a hoot about
> a simple EV. They want GIZMOs in their cars, they want APPs, to do
> almost everything but make coffee... [Don't] give a damn about range...

Yep. You've described the typical consumer; what Bob Rice calls
"sheeple". :)

> It's all BS. Anyone can build their own conversion that will get
> 100 miles on LEAD, if they go 15 MPH...

Sure; and it will go 50 miles in normal driving, and 30 miles even if
driven hard. That is in fact all that most people need. It's not all
they *want*, though.

> IMHO, I would never buy a new car or truck that needs more software
> than the space shuttle or the Lunar lander.

For now, consumers have no choice *but* to buy an expensive,
over-featured vehicle. Even the bottom of the line vehicle has to have
power everything, air conditioning, star studded mud guards, chrome
fender dents, edible steering column (oops; that's Firesign Theatre
talking).

Anyway, what will happen when some modern equivalent of the Ford model T
or VW Beetle shows up again? A truly simple, affordable, truly basic
car? It won't come from one of the major automakers; it will come "out
of the blue" from someone that is *not* invested in the status quo.

And one great way for it to dodge the pollution regulations is to make
it an EV! :)

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Discussion Starter #4
Eric <[email protected]> wrote:

> In other words,
> people will ALWAYS choose an ICE powered vehicle with range and
> dependability over an EV

People who use the word "always" are always wrong :)

IMO, people generally buy what they want and can afford.

All we need to do is to get enough people to want an EV, then make affordable EV's.

Simple :)

Re your 350-mile-range assertion: red herring. It's not valid for gas cars. I doubt you can get 200 miles out of a Hummer, yet people buy them.

Microwave oven analogy: do you have one? Why? They can't cook a turkey or bake bread, therefore they are useless.

Re infrastructure: there are WAY more electrical outlets than gas stations in this country.

I have problems with many other parts of your post, but this on-screen keyboard is tedious to use so I'll stop here.

--
Doug Weathers
http://www.gdunge.com
Dedicated to the creation of a spacefaring civilization




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Discussion Starter #5
Hi, Please don't take what I'm saying wrongly, and please don't take
offense. Though I agree with you on most of your points, you are the
minority. (like everyone on EVDL)

Majority rules. It's basic math. Though you make some very valid points,
they are not how the majority of the population think nor view the
automotive world.

Back to basics. An automobile moves people and cargo. A gas powered ICE
auto/SUV moves people and cargo dependably and cost efficiently, thereby
minimizing fear. (though not cleanly)
Your fears of "being stuck in a gas line" are a very small minority
fear, and do not weigh against the scale of the majority which simply
don't care about the gas lines.

"...You'll learn to make that 45mi range work. And work hard..."

The majority of people don't want to WORK HARD. Period.

Humans are inherently LAZY and GREEDY. When you understand this, it
makes perfect sense why ICE powered vehicles were chosen over EVs some
100+ years ago.

Again, it's about the path of least resistance.

Make that path easy, and everyone will drive an EV.

Regards,
Eric






On 9/17/2010 10:51 AM, Dave Hymers wrote:
>
Eric<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>> People don't want to be told what they want. They "know" what they want
>> already. They buy what "gets the job done", and in style. This is why
>> EVs are not popular. (yet).
>>
>>
> People are making bad investment decisions (buying a huge ICE car) based on
> faulty information. (or lack of any)
> If people where told that by 2015 gas will most likely surpass the $4/gal
> mark in a hurry they might
> think a little different. Oh, I guess I don't need to seat 8 or be able to
> tow 5,000lbs.
>
>
>
>> EVs don't get the job done. Simple as that. No offense... But that's the
>> truth. Build an EV that goes 350 miles on a charge (just like an ICE)
>> with the infrastructure to keep going, and you'll have a winner. Don't
>> forget about STYLE! People probably won't drive an EV with a 1000 mile
>> range if it looks like a Yugo. Who want to be seen driving in that?
>>
>> The problem with EVs are that those in the EV world are trying to "Fix"
>> something that's not broken in the GAS powered world. In other words,
>> people will ALWAYS choose an ICE powered vehicle with range and
>> dependability over an EV with 40-100 mile range and questionable
>> dependability. Range anxiety anyone? It's been discussed at length here
>> on this list, and by every other proponent for EV technology for years.
>> Fear is a powerful demotivator.
>>
>>
> I will have to respectfully add an addendum to that. Fear is a de-motivator
> for purchasing an EV IF you know
> you'll always have an alternative, which in the strictest sense is *not*
> true for everyone.
> One of the biggest motivators for me to get an EV on the road IS actually
> fear. Fear of being stuck in the lines for gas, which are, as no one is
> being explicitly told, just around the corner.
>
> The energy density of hydrocarbons powering our cars will one day be a thing
> of the past, that is why I mentioned the ants and the grasshopper. Get busy
> building EVs with what we have now, despite the range problems.
> The only question is how many grasshoppers will catch on before its utterly
> obvious EVs are going to be king.
> You'll learn to make that 45mi range work. And work hard.
>
> Again, apologies for the pessimism but after looking at these issues even
> for the little amount of time I have (maybe 3yrs?)
> that's where I've arrived at. Ok, I guess I'm done fear mongering.
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Discussion Starter #6
Shame on you Doug... ;)

The obviousness of your misquoting my statement and taking it out of
context, plus deleting the rest of my post in your response for the sake
of your point is a rather weak attempt to divert and incompletely inform
list members based on your own bias. ;) No offense of course.

You quoted me as saying: "...In other words, people will ALWAYS choose
an ICE powered vehicle with range and dependability over an EV..."

That was NOT the entire quote and it misconstrues my point. In addition
it makes it seem like YOU are right and I am WRONG, when in fact it's
not about that at all, and I couldn't possibly care less about right and
wrong in this circumstance, other than I believe it's wrong to misquote
for your own agenda, no matter who you are. Am I wrong in believing that? ;)

Here is my FULL quote:

"...In other words, people will ALWAYS choose an ICE powered vehicle
with range and dependability over an EV with 40-100 mile range and
questionable dependability...."

My original quote has a completely different meaning when you read the
whole thing, rather than the half quote you posted to support your
statement "...People who use the word "always" are always wrong :)..."

I ask simply (since you like simplicity), am I wrong that people will
always choose an ICE car with a range of 350 miles over an EV with
40-100? The probability of the practicality factor says "most likely".
So I guess in that you are right. It seems your beef is more with my use
of the word "always" than with the true context of my statement.

As for your quote about people buying Hummers. "...Re your
350-mile-range assertion: red herring. It's not valid for gas cars. I
doubt you can get 200 miles out of a Hummer, yet people buy them..."

(notice I quoted your entire sentence(s) so as to provide proper
CONTEXT; http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/context )

It's a minority of the general populous who actually own Hummers. The
average distance an ICE car gets is around 300-350 miles to the tank. No
matter how big or small the car. The only difference is in the size of
the fuel tank. Hummers are an the exception not a rule.

If you have "...problems with many other parts..." of my post, perhaps
you should spend your time more wisely by actually quoting peoples'
ENTIRE statements, instead of purposefully deleting my post, and
misquoting me merely to make yourself feel better.

"...All we need to do is to get enough people to want an EV, then make
affordable EV's..." "...Simple :)..."

I will agree with that... Except for the "simple" part.

Regards,
Eric

P.S. Notice I left your whole post intact. ;)



On 9/17/2010 12:58 PM, Doug Weathers wrote:
>
Eric<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>> In other words,
>> people will ALWAYS choose an ICE powered vehicle with range and
>> dependability over an EV
>>
> People who use the word "always" are always wrong :)
>
> IMO, people generally buy what they want and can afford.
>
> All we need to do is to get enough people to want an EV, then make affordable EV's.
>
> Simple :)
>
> Re your 350-mile-range assertion: red herring. It's not valid for gas cars. I doubt you can get 200 miles out of a Hummer, yet people buy them.
>
> Microwave oven analogy: do you have one? Why? They can't cook a turkey or bake bread, therefore they are useless.
>
> Re infrastructure: there are WAY more electrical outlets than gas stations in this country.
>
> I have problems with many other parts of your post, but this on-screen keyboard is tedious to use so I'll stop here.
>
> --
> Doug Weathers
> http://www.gdunge.com
> Dedicated to the creation of a spacefaring civilization
>
>
>
>
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>

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Discussion Starter #7
"Make that path easy, and everyone will drive an EV."

Or, make the other path harder :) I'll put my chips on that happening before
EVs gain more range or wider acceptance.
But, again I'm just pessimistic.
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Discussion Starter #8
It still amazes me the sacrifices people will make to avoid thinking

(not just with respect to EV's... this goes for everything).

> I'll stick with my old argument. People are inherently
> > lazy. They suffer
> > from LBS. "Lazy Brain Syndrome". They don't want to think
> > about it,
> > worry about it, or "figure it out".
>
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Discussion Starter #9
Actually, the Hummers get about 300-350 miles per tank also. 32 gallon tank
(2009 H2). Measurements on the web vary for MPG, but are mostly around
9-10+. The thing is so darned big, the manufacturer isn't required to
publish official numbers (and as far as I can tell, they don't). Of course,
you'll crack a $100 bill pretty seriously every time you fill it up!

I find it surprising, though, that its gas tank is actually smaller than my
3/4 ton Suburban.

Mike

<Eric said>


It's a minority of the general populous who actually own Hummers. The
average distance an ICE car gets is around 300-350 miles to the tank. No
matter how big or small the car. The only difference is in the size of the
fuel tank. Hummers are an the exception not a rule.

If you have "...problems with many other parts..." of my post, perhaps you
should spend your time more wisely by actually quoting peoples'
ENTIRE statements, instead of purposefully deleting my post, and misquoting
me merely to make yourself feel better.

"...All we need to do is to get enough people to want an EV, then make
affordable EV's..." "...Simple :)..."



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Discussion Starter #10
On 18 Sep 2010 at 2:46, Mike Nickerson wrote:

> Hummers get about 300-350 miles per tank ...

Not to pick on Mike, or indeed to take the wind out of anyone's sails ...
but this and the Pedal Power thread are getting a wee bit off topic. I know
it's tempting to just reply like it's one of the watering hole conversations
we all know and enjoy, but please try to keep EVs in your posts.

Thanks,

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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