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Discussion Starter #1
Well, I just tested my mutant Sparrow on a 16 mile trip.
This Sparrow is (GASP!) carrying a little Kipor KGE3000Ti generator,
which is feeding my PFC-40 charger.
(I built a really ugly rack to carry it hanging under the back.
Pictures to make you sick will be posted soon.)
I've found that I can set the charger for about a 10-11A charge off the
genset before it starts causing problems for the generator.
On my 16 mile run (to town and back) with very few stops, I averaged
98Wh/Mile out of the battery pack. This is in comparison to the
180-200Wh/mile i've been using without the genset.

The only reason I'm doing this horrible thing is that my job is now 32
miles one way. (Yes, I can charge at work). With the genset, I'll be
able to use the bird to commute again.
What I would prefer is to find some better batteries to get the Sparrow
more range.
My 2nd choice is to find a 2 kwh or so battery block that I can use
instead of the generator. Genset weighs about 70lbs, and I wouldn't
want anything heavier than that.

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Discussion Starter #2
Okay, here are pictures of the deed:
http://www.casadelgato.com/Gallery/thumbnails.php?album=63

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Discussion Starter #3
Clever, but I guess I don't understand the point. I think I remember your
saying that you have to or want to use a motorcycle on your commute for some
reason related to a ferry. (Yes? No? Maybe that was someone else?)

All well and good, and I don't mean to diminish the accomplishment ... but
if your commute is so long that you need to burn fuel, and the vehicle has
to be licensed as a motorcycle, why hack something up? (Other than the
challenge, I mean.) It'd be easier, cheaper, and maybe even cleaner, to
just buy a little gas-powered scooter or small bike for commuting, and
reserve the Sparrow for local errands.

What am I missing here?

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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Discussion Starter #4
On Sep 23, 2007, at 5:57 PM, David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:

> Clever, but I guess I don't understand the point. I think I
> remember your
> saying that you have to or want to use a motorcycle on your commute
> for some
> reason related to a ferry. (Yes? No? Maybe that was someone else?)

Right. Motorcycles have a lower ferry fee and generally can get on
the next run (where cars may have to wait due to traffic volume.)

> All well and good, and I don't mean to diminish the
> accomplishment ... but
> if your commute is so long that you need to burn fuel, and the
> vehicle has
> to be licensed as a motorcycle, why hack something up? (Other than
> the
> challenge, I mean.) It'd be easier, cheaper, and maybe even
> cleaner, to
> just buy a little gas-powered scooter or small bike for commuting, and
> reserve the Sparrow for local errands.
>
> What am I missing here?

Western WA weather! Motorcycle commuting gets a bit rare in the
winter and spring in western WA for a good reason. We have some rain
around 140 days a year (that is the Seattle average, we get a few
more wet days in the "convergence zone" around the Everett area.)

I can't even reliably drive my EV buggy in July or August. Based on
historical averages (over the 114 years of data collected in Seattle)
there are only 14 days per year where the chance of rain is less than
10% (all in late July and early August.) Thankfully weather
forecasting can do better (either the published forecast or local
common sense) and I can generally know the night before when to drive
the buggy to work (and be quite confident when I get up.) I'm lucky
to put 1000 miles per year on my EV buggy. Its part of the reason my
first pack of Optimas lasted 7 years (even with my abuse :)

Paul "neon" Gooch

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Discussion Starter #5
From: John G. Lussmyer
> This Sparrow is (GASP!) carrying a little Kipor KGE3000Ti generator
> (I built a really ugly rack to carry it hanging under the back.
> Pictures to make you sick will be posted soon.)

Oooh, that is ugly! Tell you what... put some side panels on it to make it look just like a huge industrial battery, and nobody will know the difference! :)

--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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Discussion Starter #6
David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
> Clever, but I guess I don't understand the point. I think I remember your
> saying that you have to or want to use a motorcycle on your commute for some
> reason related to a ferry. (Yes? No? Maybe that was someone else?)
>
Correct. A Ferry.
> All well and good, and I don't mean to diminish the accomplishment ... but
> if your commute is so long that you need to burn fuel, and the vehicle has
> to be licensed as a motorcycle, why hack something up? (Other than the
> challenge, I mean.) It'd be easier, cheaper, and maybe even cleaner, to
> just buy a little gas-powered scooter or small bike for commuting, and
> reserve the Sparrow for local errands.
>
> What am I missing here?
>
That there doesn't seem to be a Gas Powered vehicle available with those
specs.
A) Freeway capable. (I do need to reach 70mph to keep up with traffic -
barely)
B) Enclosed (I'm tired of riding a motorcycle in the rain when it's 35 F
outside.)
C) Legally a motorcycle. (So I don't have to wait in line.)

Actually, the genset isn't providing much of the power, and I will still
be mostly driving electric.
Kind of a reverse Hybrid setup. (Mostly electric instead of Mostly gas.)

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Discussion Starter #7
There's got to be a better way for you to commute. Keep
looking for it. You haven't found it yet. I've followed your
attempts to commute with a Sparrow since the beginning and
I admire your persistence. I would have given up long ago.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Evil Sparrow Mutant seems to work


> Okay, here are pictures of the deed:
> http://www.casadelgato.com/Gallery/thumbnails.php?album=63
>
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Discussion Starter #9
Timothy Balcer wrote:
> Have you thought about getting a motorcycle trailer and filling it with battery?
>
Yeah, but pulling a trailer is a PITA. Parking is harder, backing up
pretty much impossible.

Right now, the generator may be adequate. (Not sure, seems to depend on
how long I have to wait for the next ferry.)
What I'd really like is a block of batteries that weigh no more than
70lbs or so, can deliver 3KW, and have about 4KWH useable capacity.

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Discussion Starter #10
Hmmm.... Sounds more like 280 lbs of lead acid... Surely the sparrow
could hold more weight if it were adequately supported, couldn't it?

Z


> What I'd really like is a block of batteries that weigh no more than
> 70lbs or so, can deliver 3KW, and have about 4KWH useable capacity.
>

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Discussion Starter #11
Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> Hmmm.... Sounds more like 280 lbs of lead acid... Surely the sparrow
> could hold more weight if it were adequately supported, couldn't it?
>
About the only way to support it would be a trailer.
Not gonna happen.

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Discussion Starter #12
On 25 Sep 2007 at 7:00, John G. Lussmyer wrote:

> What I'd really like is a block of batteries that weigh no more than
> 70lbs or so, can deliver 3KW, and have about 4KWH useable capacity.

I haven't really thought this through, but I wonder if a double string of D-
size NiMH cells would help.

In a quick web search I found some 10ah cells. Two hundred sixty (!) of
them would weigh about 95lb and yield - well, not what you asked for, but
still over 3kWh. At 1C a double string could make your 3kW output
requirement.

A triple string would more than make your kWh requirement but weigh 140lb.

Cost for 260 of them - $1867 according to the website I'm looking at.
They're probably cheapos though, so who knows about their reliability.

http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=202

You'd have to charge the strings separately. But maybe you could put them
all in series (!) and have Rich make you a custom PFC to buck 'em down to
156v.

I wonder if it would work. Would lithium be cheaper or easier?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Discussion Starter #13
I wonder what the size of such a pack would be.
It doesn't sound like it would be that much more difficult to replace the
standard batteries that are in it with lithium as well.
Could then both packs fit in the space that the current pack is in without
having to do that extension to the rear?


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of David Roden
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 10:13 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Evil Sparrow Mutant seems to work

On 25 Sep 2007 at 7:00, John G. Lussmyer wrote:

> What I'd really like is a block of batteries that weigh no more than
> 70lbs or so, can deliver 3KW, and have about 4KWH useable capacity.

I haven't really thought this through, but I wonder if a double string of D-
size NiMH cells would help.

In a quick web search I found some 10ah cells. Two hundred sixty (!) of
them would weigh about 95lb and yield - well, not what you asked for, but
still over 3kWh. At 1C a double string could make your 3kW output
requirement.

A triple string would more than make your kWh requirement but weigh 140lb.

Cost for 260 of them - $1867 according to the website I'm looking at.
They're probably cheapos though, so who knows about their reliability.

http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=202

You'd have to charge the strings separately. But maybe you could put them
all in series (!) and have Rich make you a custom PFC to buck 'em down to
156v.

I wonder if it would work. Would lithium be cheaper or easier?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Discussion Starter #14
[email protected] wrote:
> I wonder what the size of such a pack would be.
> It doesn't sound like it would be that much more difficult to replace the
> standard batteries that are in it with lithium as well.
> Could then both packs fit in the space that the current pack is in without
> having to do that extension to the rear?
>
Nope. There is NO free space in a Sparrow.
There is a (nominal) 7KWH of power in the 13 Optima YT's a Sparrow uses.
To keep from doing deep discharges, I could really use another 3KWH.
If I replaced the entire existing pack with some good LiIon or NiMh
batteries, that would do the job very nicely.
I'm not a millionaire though.
So, right now, I've spent $600 on a 1.6KW genset - which is almost
enough. I still discharge the pack a bit deeper than I want.
2KW or a bit more would be better.

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Discussion Starter #15
On 25 Sep 2007 at 7:00, John G. Lussmyer wrote:

> What I'd really like is a block of batteries that weigh no more than
> 70lbs or so, can deliver 3KW, and have about 4KWH useable capacity.

How about LiFEPO4?

6.2Kwh's
55 lbs
68Kw peak
6.2Kw cont
2000 cycles at 100%DoD to 80%cap

$7000.00


In your bird that's a 33 mile range and 66,000 miles lifetime.

10 cents per mile. Compare that to your Optima's.



Wanna replace the Optima's completely?

29.26 KWh
750lbs
280Kw peak
35Kw cont
2000 cycles at 100%DoD to 80%cap

$10,914.00

now your bird has a 155 mile range and ~312,000 miles lifetime. (but still has over a 100 mile range at this point)

3.4 cents per mile.


These computations came from lionev.com, shipping FOB Lynchburg, Va.
I haven't dealt with them,..yet.


--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY

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Discussion Starter #16
John,
I was looking at the pictures of your Rudman regulators, and I'm confused! It looks like there is a daisy chained data cable between the battery boards, going back to the charger, but it looks like they also still have a resistor to bleed off power (individual fans). I thought the Madman had battery monitors now (instead of dissipative regulators), that would tell the charger to lower the pack voltage until all the batteries were at the same voltage, and then do the one amp (or two amp, or whatever) final charge?
Thanks,
BB

>Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 15:22:17 -0700
>From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[email protected]>
>
>Okay, here are pictures of the deed:
>http://www.casadelgato.com/Gallery/thumbnails.php?album=63

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Discussion Starter #17
Dave (Battery Boy) Hawkins wrote:
> John,
> I was looking at the pictures of your Rudman regulators, and I'm confused! It looks like there is a daisy chained data cable between the battery boards, going back to the charger, but it looks like they also still have a resistor to bleed off power (individual fans). I thought the Madman had battery monitors now (instead of dissipative regulators), that would tell the charger to lower the pack voltage until all the batteries were at the same voltage, and then do the one amp (or two amp, or whatever) final charge?
> Thanks,

They still need to bypass some current to allow the lower batteries to
continue charging when the full batteries are full!
The regbus cable is used to tell the charger to slow down so the regs
don't overheat.
I added the fans since the Sparrow has poor air circulation in the
battery boxes.

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Discussion Starter #18
Well maybe you could bypass the charger completely and simply connect a
rectifier bridge of sufficient strength to convert 120V AC to 120V DC. Then
connect this 120V DC to the battery pack.As long as the batteries aren't
fully charged, the controller won't see this high voltage as batteries
should sink all the current.
This would help get rid of conversion inefficiency. Wonder what problems
could occur by doing this. -Andrew Payne



John G. Lussmyer wrote:
>
> Well, I just tested my mutant Sparrow on a 16 mile trip.
> This Sparrow is (GASP!) carrying a little Kipor KGE3000Ti generator,
> which is feeding my PFC-40 charger.
> (I built a really ugly rack to carry it hanging under the back.
> Pictures to make you sick will be posted soon.)
> I've found that I can set the charger for about a 10-11A charge off the
> genset before it starts causing problems for the generator.
> On my 16 mile run (to town and back) with very few stops, I averaged
> 98Wh/Mile out of the battery pack. This is in comparison to the
> 180-200Wh/mile i've been using without the genset.
>
>
>

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View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Evil-Sparrow-Mutant-seems-to-work-tf4505981s25542.html#a12962687
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