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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have been meaning to ask this question for quite a while, but only
until now have I finally come around to it.

A main benefit to EVs, of course, is that there are zero emissions.
The car itself produces no emissions. And of course there is always
the question of the power plant. I'm sure many people have seen this:
http://www.pnl.gov/energy/eed/etd/pdfs/phev_feasibility_analysis_combined.pdf

This study, to me, seems realistic. EVs, as us EV enthusiasts expect,
shows that electrics overall produce less pollution than a gasoline
powered car. However, b/c of those nasty coal plants, SOx are through
the roof, and NOx are slightly higher. NOx is a potent GHG
(http://www.epa.gov/nonco2/econ-inv/international.html
http://www.epa.gov/nonco2/econ-inv/table.html) Does anyone,
particularly Bill Dube, know anything about just how problematic an
increase of NOx would be?

Second, again due to coal, SOx emissions would/could be much, much
higher. SOx, I believe, is a major air pollutant, correct? Power
plants are far away from any communities, but wouldn't the SOx
eventually mitigate itself through cities? Obviously, because it came
from far away, it would be in less concentrations, but still, just b/c
the SOx isn't harming us, I'm sure it's harming something out there in
the environment. (Acid rain rings a bell)
Is SOx broken down or split apart naturally, so that when it comes
spewing about into the air it splits apart and combines with something
else, becoming harmless?

Another interesting thing: electrical transmission/distribution and
the production of semiconductors produces a good chunk of highly
potent GHG. Does anyone have anything to say about this?

I'm not trying to shoot down EVs, they still have many environmental,
political, and possibly economical benefits. I am a full-fledged
supporter of EVs. I'm not trying to suggest that global warming is
real or not, so let's please not turn this into an argument about
global warming...or especially about politics!

I also have some quick questions about the study I linked to above. Do
the emissions of the gas car include the emissions of the production
of gasoline? The study displays the "Power Generation Composition" as
two parts: natural gas and coal. Does the study include the entire
electrical grid, or just these two sources? What emission rating of
the gas car are they comparing the EV to? I e-mailed the people
before, but never got a response.

I hope my post sparks an interesting discussion. :)

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http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
One thing at a time.

CO2 emissions and dependence on foreign energy have to be put in check
first, for which EVs are the best solution, hands down. Eventually, power
generation needs to 100% renewable and NOx/SOx-free (geothermal, wind,
solar, and solar convection tower technologies are best, the latter even
showing promise as a means of reversing desertification See:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCGVTYtJEFk&NR=1, then imagine vast areas of
the U.S. southwest and other desert areas of the world covered with these).
This could be accomplished within a few years by a dedicated human race,
which means it will actually take 50 (or we'll become extinct, whichever
comes first). In the interim, NOx and SOx emissions will increase with power
demands unless increased demand is supplied at a 1:1 ratio by renewable
sources.

Regardless, I'll spend my time promoting, driving, and building EVs.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph T. " <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 9:23 PM
Subject: [EVDL] EVs = Clean and Green?


>I have been meaning to ask this question for quite a while, but only
> until now have I finally come around to it.
>
> A main benefit to EVs, of course, is that there are zero emissions.
> The car itself produces no emissions. And of course there is always
> the question of the power plant. I'm sure many people have seen this:
> http://www.pnl.gov/energy/eed/etd/pdfs/phev_feasibility_analysis_combined.pdf
>
> This study, to me, seems realistic. EVs, as us EV enthusiasts expect,
> shows that electrics overall produce less pollution than a gasoline
> powered car. However, b/c of those nasty coal plants, SOx are through
> the roof, and NOx are slightly higher. NOx is a potent GHG
> (http://www.epa.gov/nonco2/econ-inv/international.html
> http://www.epa.gov/nonco2/econ-inv/table.html) Does anyone,
> particularly Bill Dube, know anything about just how problematic an
> increase of NOx would be?
>
> Second, again due to coal, SOx emissions would/could be much, much
> higher. SOx, I believe, is a major air pollutant, correct? Power
> plants are far away from any communities, but wouldn't the SOx
> eventually mitigate itself through cities? Obviously, because it came
> from far away, it would be in less concentrations, but still, just b/c
> the SOx isn't harming us, I'm sure it's harming something out there in
> the environment. (Acid rain rings a bell)
> Is SOx broken down or split apart naturally, so that when it comes
> spewing about into the air it splits apart and combines with something
> else, becoming harmless?
>
> Another interesting thing: electrical transmission/distribution and
> the production of semiconductors produces a good chunk of highly
> potent GHG. Does anyone have anything to say about this?
>
> I'm not trying to shoot down EVs, they still have many environmental,
> political, and possibly economical benefits. I am a full-fledged
> supporter of EVs. I'm not trying to suggest that global warming is
> real or not, so let's please not turn this into an argument about
> global warming...or especially about politics!
>
> I also have some quick questions about the study I linked to above. Do
> the emissions of the gas car include the emissions of the production
> of gasoline? The study displays the "Power Generation Composition" as
> two parts: natural gas and coal. Does the study include the entire
> electrical grid, or just these two sources? What emission rating of
> the gas car are they comparing the EV to? I e-mailed the people
> before, but never got a response.
>
> I hope my post sparks an interesting discussion. :)
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I think there is a critical remark in this study that is
not further highlighted, so it easily escapes attention:
"The economics for emission reduction and carbon
sequestration technologies may look much more attractive
when installed at central power plants rather than in motor
vehicles, especially when the costs are spread over longer
operating periods and billions of additional kilowatt hours."

In essence, it means that the whole problem of increased
emissions is easily tackled when the power plants get about
150 million new customers (the PHEVs from this article, or
73% of all the light duty vehicles in the USA)
and with this extra income there would be very good economies
of scale to clean up the smokestacks, as many power plants
are much more polluting than technically necessary, it is a
matter of investing in equipment to clean it up.

A minor detail is of course the reduction of overall
resources (imported oil) so I see it indeed as EV = Clean and
Green, in particular if the EPA participates in protecting
the environment (unfortunately it is ridiculing its own name)

Cheers,

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Joseph T.
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 9:23 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] EVs = Clean and Green?

I have been meaning to ask this question for quite a while, but only until now have I finally come around to it.

A main benefit to EVs, of course, is that there are zero emissions.
The car itself produces no emissions. And of course there is always the question of the power plant. I'm sure many people have seen this:
http://www.pnl.gov/energy/eed/etd/pdfs/phev_feasibility_analysis_combined.pdf

This study, to me, seems realistic. EVs, as us EV enthusiasts expect, shows that electrics overall produce less pollution than a gasoline powered car. However, b/c of those nasty coal plants, SOx are through the roof, and NOx are slightly higher. NOx is a potent GHG (http://www.epa.gov/nonco2/econ-inv/international.html
http://www.epa.gov/nonco2/econ-inv/table.html) Does anyone, particularly Bill Dube, know anything about just how problematic an increase of NOx would be?

Second, again due to coal, SOx emissions would/could be much, much higher. SOx, I believe, is a major air pollutant, correct? Power plants are far away from any communities, but wouldn't the SOx eventually mitigate itself through cities? Obviously, because it came from far away, it would be in less concentrations, but still, just b/c the SOx isn't harming us, I'm sure it's harming something out there in the environment. (Acid rain rings a bell) Is SOx broken down or split apart naturally, so that when it comes spewing about into the air it splits apart and combines with something else, becoming harmless?

Another interesting thing: electrical transmission/distribution and the production of semiconductors produces a good chunk of highly potent GHG. Does anyone have anything to say about this?

I'm not trying to shoot down EVs, they still have many environmental, political, and possibly economical benefits. I am a full-fledged supporter of EVs. I'm not trying to suggest that global warming is real or not, so let's please not turn this into an argument about global warming...or especially about politics!

I also have some quick questions about the study I linked to above. Do the emissions of the gas car include the emissions of the production of gasoline? The study displays the "Power Generation Composition" as two parts: natural gas and coal. Does the study include the entire electrical grid, or just these two sources? What emission rating of the gas car are they comparing the EV to? I e-mailed the people before, but never got a response.

I hope my post sparks an interesting discussion. :)

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 
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