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Discussion Starter #1
The DOE recently released this Critical Materials Strategy report focusing on
elements that are in demand and may be in short supply.
http://blog.energy.gov/blog/2010/12/15/department-energy-releases-new-critical-materials-strategy
Reading through the report, focusing on the sections regarding EV's I was
struck by the rather glaring incorrect assumption that since hybrids use
motors with rare earth magnets 100% of all EV's would also use rare earth
magnets. This of course ignores the reality that the LEAF, Roadster, MiniE,
RAV4EV, and probably some others I'm forgetting, do not use rare earth
magnet motors. This disconnect with reality was a bit surprising as I
thought Chu was more on top of things. Ironically when I tried to send
correct information to the email given for commentary it was bounced back to
me as not existing. Can't government get anything right? I did forward the
information to the DOE address for secretary Chu, maybe someone will see it.
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Discussion Starter #2
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Discussion Starter #3
I think JRP3 is referring to the fact that the largest use of rare earths in
ev's would be in so-called Brushless DC" (an AC motor as all on this list
know) or permanent magnet (such as the high coercive force
neodymium-iron-boron magnets) rotor motors, and that AC induction motors and
DC motors don't use this type rotor.
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Discussion Starter #8
Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 12/21/2010 8:50 AM, AMPhibian wrote:
>> The LEAF website specifically states there are no rare earth elements used
>> in the vehicle and I thought it used a DC excited synchronous motor, which I
>> thought did not use rare earth magnets.
>
> You can make PM motors without rare earth magnets. 100% of the PM motors
> already used in cars use ceramic, alnico, and other cheaper magnetic
> materials.

Yes, for wipers, fans and such like where the size and the power to
weight ratio is not an issue.

> The rare earth magnets slightly reduce motor weight and increase
> efficiency maybe 1%. People use them to win contests or races, or for
> demonstration projects where cost is no object. But in mass production,
> almost all PM motor manufacturers switch to cheaper and more available
> materials.

The observation that Hybrids - which are mass-produced - (all?) use
rare earth motor/generators, is a reasonable one.

The Mitsubishi MiEV is certainly designed to be mass-produced and it
uses neodymium in the drive motor, as one example.

I am simply contesting the OP which seems to be trying to suggest
that no current EVs use rare earth motors ("A glaring disconnect with
reality"!). Because apparently some do - perhaps the majority, by
volume of cars planned to be put on the market by major manufacturers.

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Discussion Starter #9
I appreciate the backhanded compliment but I assure you I'm not trying to be
a politician. I am interested in the truth. I never said all EV's will be
built with rare earth magnets, just that of the few that are actually being
built some, maybe a good number, are not. EV detractors often raise the
specter of rare earth limitations as another reasons EV's can't work, yet
since we all know you can build a good EV without them it's a false
argument. Now we have a DOE study parroting the misconception. I realize
that hybrids use rare earth magnets, and the DOE study extrapolated that to
mean all EV's will do the same. This does not seem to be the case. I'm
sure some will, but that is quite a different than all will.
My understanding is that peak efficiency can be slightly higher in PM motors
but average efficiency can be higher in real world usage with variable
speeds in AC induction. I think it's worth noting that the fastest
production EV ever built, the Tesla Roadster, uses AC induction, as will the
Tesla Model S. My conclusion, possibly misguided, is that EV's do not need
rare earth elements to be built.


Evan Tuer wrote:
>
>
Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 12/21/2010 8:50 AM, AMPhibian wrote:
>>> The LEAF website specifically states there are no rare earth elements
>>> used
>>> in the vehicle and I thought it used a DC excited synchronous motor,
>>> which I
>>> thought did not use rare earth magnets.
>>
>> You can make PM motors without rare earth magnets. 100% of the PM motors
>> already used in cars use ceramic, alnico, and other cheaper magnetic
>> materials.
>
> Yes, for wipers, fans and such like where the size and the power to
> weight ratio is not an issue.
>
>> The rare earth magnets slightly reduce motor weight and increase
>> efficiency maybe 1%. People use them to win contests or races, or for
>> demonstration projects where cost is no object. But in mass production,
>> almost all PM motor manufacturers switch to cheaper and more available
>> materials.
>
> The observation that Hybrids - which are mass-produced - (all?) use
> rare earth motor/generators, is a reasonable one.
>
> The Mitsubishi MiEV is certainly designed to be mass-produced and it
> uses neodymium in the drive motor, as one example.
>
> I am simply contesting the OP which seems to be trying to suggest
> that no current EVs use rare earth motors ("A glaring disconnect with
> reality"!). Because apparently some do - perhaps the majority, by
> volume of cars planned to be put on the market by major manufacturers.
>
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Discussion Starter #10
> The observation that Hybrids - which are mass-produced - (all?) use
> rare earth motor/generators, is a reasonable one.
>
> The Mitsubishi MiEV is certainly designed to be mass-produced and it
> uses neodymium in the drive motor, as one example.
>
> I am simply contesting the OP which seems to be trying to suggest
> that no current EVs use rare earth motors ("A glaring disconnect with
> reality"!). Because apparently some do - perhaps the majority, by
> volume of cars planned to be put on the market by major manufacturers.

I don't think he was suggesting that no current EV uses R.E. motors
but that a shortage of R.E. would not hamper EV development
significantly. All the examples he gave used wound/induction motor
designs, with the possible exception of the old generation RAV4s.
There are many more he didn't mention, here's some of the top of my
head:
-EV1 - Induction
-Ford ranger - Induction
-US Electricar - induction
-Solectria - induction
-GM S10
-Every darn electric forklift, industrial vehicle and golfcart
produced for the past 100+ years

I think the last example swamps all hybrid sales by quite a bit, but
that's besides the point. Lack of Rare Earths will never be a
significant issue as far as Electric Vehicle propulsion is concerned.






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Discussion Starter #11
On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 5:31 PM, Peter Gabrielsson <
[email protected]> wrote:

>
> I think the last example swamps all hybrid sales by quite a bit, but
> that's besides the point. Lack of Rare Earths will never be a
> significant issue as far as Electric Vehicle propulsion is concerned.
>
>
>
"Lack" of rare earth materials will not be a problem even if a number of EVs
use them. The term rare earth is quite the misnomer. They aren't rare at
all. We just let China mine them because we care more about our miners and
we also don't feel like setting up the infrastructure necessary to refine
them. However, induction motors use copper and that *is* rare. We will
likely have to step up our recycling efforts in order to keep up with copper
demand.
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Discussion Starter #14
Copper recycling is alive an well in LA
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-downtown-scavengers-20101224,0,3137768.story

Collin Kidder <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 5:31 PM, Peter Gabrielsson <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> I think the last example swamps all hybrid sales by quite a bit, but
>> that's besides the point. Lack of Rare Earths will never be a
>> significant issue as far as Electric Vehicle propulsion is concerned.
>>
>>
>>
> "Lack" of rare earth materials will not be a problem even if a number of EVs
> use them. The term rare earth is quite the misnomer. They aren't rare at
> all. We just let China mine them because we care more about our miners and
> we also don't feel like setting up the infrastructure necessary to refine
> them. However, induction motors use copper and that *is* rare. We will
> likely have to step up our recycling efforts in order to keep up with copper
> demand.
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>



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