[EVDL] gotta deal with that rear-wheel alignment issue (VW Rabbit)

gottdi wrote:
> Did you look into heavy duty coil springs for both the front and rear? They
> have them you know. Sport tuned springs should help a bunch. Use urethane
> bushings where you can too. They are stiff and don't sag like rubber
> bushings in the suspension. Each bit helps. When you can ditch the lead and
> get the lighter lithiums but keep your sport tuned suspension system
> installed.
>
> Pete
>
> -----
> If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand.

Hi Pete,

When we did the conversion back in 1994 with the ElectroAutomotive (EA)
VoltsRabbit kit, we installed the springs/struts that came with the kit.
This car has McPherson struts on all four corners. I replaced the
rear springs with new EA springs in 2005, since the old ones had sagged
a bit. And, of course, I'm on my third or fourth set of shocks (the
current set are Bilsteins, pricey items that had better last, and so far
they have since 2007). However, I don't see what any of this has to do
with what's going on at the rear corners, since I believe the nearest
bushings are probably at where the axle beam (U-shaped) is attached to
the body.

I had my mechanic check the front A-arm bushings a few years ago, and he
said they were ok. I actually find that a bit hard to believe, but, ok.
Even if they are ok, would urethane bushings cut down on some of the
harshness and road noise transmitted from the 44psi front tires? The
Bilsteins have helped a lot (best shocks I've had on this car - it's
actually pretty decent now), but the road surface near the bottom of the
hill coming up to the apt (and actually for much of the grade) is so bad
that it's a bouncy shaky ride in the Rabbit. Going down is not too bad
as I can thread through the holes more or less. It's the same road
surface as when I moved here in 1992 - they just toss some gravel or
other asphalty stuff on it once a year or so.

Chuck


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Mark Grasser wrote:
> I would find "like" VW and take your tape measure. It is possible that the
> body where the struts attach (at the top) are moving inward towards each
> other because of the additional weight. There are aftermarket braces
> available to maintain this distance, for racing, but might be what you need.
>
> Sincerely,
> Mark Grasser

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll mull over the possibilities for a
reference car.

Chuck

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gottdi wrote:
> Urethane will transmit more noise and be stiffer to better handle the extra
> weight while helping keep every thing in alignment. I agree with the other
> poster about support cross braces for the body both front and rear. Any sort
> of support will be of great help. The purpose of Heavy Duty struts will be
> to keep the body from sagging under the weight causing the body to become
> out of alignment with the steering components causing wear. If it sags even
> with the Heavy duty struts either the struts are not heavy duty enough or
> your just too damn heavy with LEAD batteries. How much weight in Batteries
> are you carrying on board your little car? Remember these little cars are
> not designed to carry much weight. Your car needs to sit level. Good struts
> with strong springs will help.

When I've measured the car at the tops of the wheel arches to the
ground, the car actually sits just a tad higher than as a stock diesel.
I'll measure this every few years or so. And I believe the F/R
heights are at about the same proportion as a diesel. BUT, those diesel
#s were probably on old springs and struts (I had the car as a diesel
for only three months).

My understanding is that the EA VoltsRabbit kit was designed to keep the
total weight under GVWR. The Rabbits have quite a wide spread between
curb weight and GVWR. 2000-lb stock diesel Rabbit. 2940-lb VoltsRabbit
(these were the actual weights on the scales) with 16 US-2300 (US-125 @
65-lb apiece) battery pack. GVWR is about 2900-lb, but of course that
changes with upgraded components. When I hop in, though, at ~180-190lb,
then the car will be over GVWR (the 2900-lb GVWR). With this last pack,
now US2200 @ 60-lb each, I've dropped 60-80lb.

I've noticed that these Rabbit and Golfs (I'm talking stock gas/diesel)
do tend to have more nose-up than many other cars. So be it. I like
nose-down a little more.

My mechanic says he could custom build a front brace for me across those
strut towers. I've thought about it. I don't know what a brace across
the rear towers would look like, probably the same deal more or less
straight across, which on most days with the rear seat back sitting up
would be ok, but on the odd day I have a big box to put in there with
the rear seat folded down, would stop the show. Also would probably
have to modify the hold-down straps for the rear battery box to open the
lid fully.

>
> Have you looked at the underside of the car to be sure you don't have some
> cracking of the unibody at the front suspension area and maybe the rear. I
> had an old rabbit once that had a large crack that caused my front be out
> alignment and would make my braking spongey. When I found the problem it had
> been welded up once and had cracked again. The car was unsafe to drive. I
> ditched it and took all the good stuff out and put it into an newer one and
> nicer one that I had picked up for $200 bucks. It had a bad engine. So check
> for that kind of stuff too. Cracks can be hard to see. Your car should be up
> and level if all is good. Too much weight may just negate any of the work
> you have done.

The car was last on the shop hoist about three years ago. Everytime
it's been up so where I can get underneath it, a crack has never been seen.

I believe the alignment has always been this way as a conversion. But I
may dig back into the older records from the mid-90s and double check
the alignment #s.

It's quite possible that the issue is from an accident. When I was
shopping around for a place to have the car painted and minor body work
done back in late '96, one shop did note clamp marks on the seams on the
underside of the body, indicating the car had been realigned in a
bodyshop after an accident. It's conceivable that if there was actually
an accident, and say the car was pushed against a curb (or driven
against a curb), that could have bent the rear axle beam a bit. Just
speculation, though.

>
> Go Lithium. Lighter in weight and you get to go further per charge.

Lithium is enticing; however $$$ and lack of personal shop facilities
preclude going down that route. I can handle some jobs here at the apt
carport (even put in a new pack in early 2009), and chassis jobs are
mostly handled by a mechanic I finally found to help me with this car;
the person who helped me build this car in 1994 and whose garage I
rented is no longer involved with EVs and is not available for work on
this car, and the other person I worked with lived a goodly distance
away and passed away a year and a half ago. And cost/mi is still lowest
with flooded lead-acid. So "yes" on lithium, but "no" can't do it.

Chuck


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Chuck Hursch wrote:

> gottdi wrote:
>> Urethane will transmit more noise and be stiffer to better handle the extra
>> weight while helping keep every thing in alignment. I agree with the other
>> poster about support cross braces for the body both front and rear. Any sort
>> of support will be of great help. The purpose of Heavy Duty struts will be
>> to keep the body from sagging under the weight causing the body to become
>> out of alignment with the steering components causing wear. If it sags even
>> with the Heavy duty struts either the struts are not heavy duty enough or
>> your just too damn heavy with LEAD batteries. How much weight in Batteries
>> are you carrying on board your little car? Remember these little cars are
>> not designed to carry much weight. Your car needs to sit level. Good struts
>> with strong springs will help.
>
> When I've measured the car at the tops of the wheel arches to the
> ground, the car actually sits just a tad higher than as a stock diesel.
> I'll measure this every few years or so. And I believe the F/R
> heights are at about the same proportion as a diesel. BUT, those diesel
> #s were probably on old springs and struts (I had the car as a diesel
> for only three months).
>
> My understanding is that the EA VoltsRabbit kit was designed to keep the
> total weight under GVWR. The Rabbits have quite a wide spread between
> curb weight and GVWR. 2000-lb stock diesel Rabbit. 2940-lb VoltsRabbit
> (these were the actual weights on the scales) with 16 US-2300 (US-125 @
> 65-lb apiece) battery pack. GVWR is about 2900-lb, but of course that
> changes with upgraded components. When I hop in, though, at ~180-190lb,
> then the car will be over GVWR (the 2900-lb GVWR). With this last pack,
> now US2200 @ 60-lb each, I've dropped 60-80lb.
>
> I've noticed that these Rabbit and Golfs (I'm talking stock gas/diesel)
> do tend to have more nose-up than many other cars. So be it. I like
> nose-down a little more.
>
> My mechanic says he could custom build a front brace for me across those
> strut towers. I've thought about it. I don't know what a brace across
> the rear towers would look like, probably the same deal more or less
> straight across, which on most days with the rear seat back sitting up
> would be ok, but on the odd day I have a big box to put in there with
> the rear seat folded down, would stop the show. Also would probably
> have to modify the hold-down straps for the rear battery box to open the
> lid fully.
>
>>
>> Have you looked at the underside of the car to be sure you don't have some
>> cracking of the unibody at the front suspension area and maybe the rear. I
>> had an old rabbit once that had a large crack that caused my front be out
>> alignment and would make my braking spongey. When I found the problem it had
>> been welded up once and had cracked again. The car was unsafe to drive. I
>> ditched it and took all the good stuff out and put it into an newer one and
>> nicer one that I had picked up for $200 bucks. It had a bad engine. So check
>> for that kind of stuff too. Cracks can be hard to see. Your car should be up
>> and level if all is good. Too much weight may just negate any of the work
>> you have done.
>
> The car was last on the shop hoist about three years ago. Everytime
> it's been up so where I can get underneath it, a crack has never been seen.
>
> I believe the alignment has always been this way as a conversion. But I
> may dig back into the older records from the mid-90s and double check
> the alignment #s.
>
> It's quite possible that the issue is from an accident. When I was
> shopping around for a place to have the car painted and minor body work
> done back in late '96, one shop did note clamp marks on the seams on the
> underside of the body, indicating the car had been realigned in a
> bodyshop after an accident. It's conceivable that if there was actually
> an accident, and say the car was pushed against a curb (or driven
> against a curb), that could have bent the rear axle beam a bit. Just
> speculation, though.
>
>>
>> Go Lithium. Lighter in weight and you get to go further per charge.
>
> Lithium is enticing; however $$$ and lack of personal shop facilities
> preclude going down that route. I can handle some jobs here at the apt
> carport (even put in a new pack in early 2009), and chassis jobs are
> mostly handled by a mechanic I finally found to help me with this car;
> the person who helped me build this car in 1994 and whose garage I
> rented is no longer involved with EVs and is not available for work on
> this car, and the other person I worked with lived a goodly distance
> away and passed away a year and a half ago. And cost/mi is still lowest
> with flooded lead-acid. So "yes" on lithium, but "no" can't do it.
>
> Chuck
>
>
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Chuck Hursch <[email protected]> wrote:

> gottdi wrote:
> > Urethane will transmit more noise and be stiffer to better handle the
> extra
> > weight while helping keep every thing in alignment. I agree with the
> other
> > poster about support cross braces for the body both front and rear. Any
> sort
> > of support will be of great help. The purpose of Heavy Duty struts will
> be
> > to keep the body from sagging under the weight causing the body to become
> > out of alignment with the steering components causing wear. If it sags
> even
> > with the Heavy duty struts either the struts are not heavy duty enough or
> > your just too damn heavy with LEAD batteries. How much weight in
> Batteries
> > are you carrying on board your little car? Remember these little cars are
> > not designed to carry much weight. Your car needs to sit level. Good
> struts
> > with strong springs will help.
>
> When I've measured the car at the tops of the wheel arches to the
> ground, the car actually sits just a tad higher than as a stock diesel.
> I'll measure this every few years or so. And I believe the F/R
> heights are at about the same proportion as a diesel. BUT, those diesel
> #s were probably on old springs and struts (I had the car as a diesel
> for only three months).
>
> My understanding is that the EA VoltsRabbit kit was designed to keep the
> total weight under GVWR. The Rabbits have quite a wide spread between
> curb weight and GVWR. 2000-lb stock diesel Rabbit. 2940-lb VoltsRabbit
> (these were the actual weights on the scales) with 16 US-2300 (US-125 @
> 65-lb apiece) battery pack. GVWR is about 2900-lb, but of course that
> changes with upgraded components. When I hop in, though, at ~180-190lb,
> then the car will be over GVWR (the 2900-lb GVWR). With this last pack,
> now US2200 @ 60-lb each, I've dropped 60-80lb.
>
> I've noticed that these Rabbit and Golfs (I'm talking stock gas/diesel)
> do tend to have more nose-up than many other cars. So be it. I like
> nose-down a little more.
>
> My mechanic says he could custom build a front brace for me across those
> strut towers. I've thought about it. I don't know what a brace across
> the rear towers would look like, probably the same deal more or less
> straight across, which on most days with the rear seat back sitting up
> would be ok, but on the odd day I have a big box to put in there with
> the rear seat folded down, would stop the show. Also would probably
> have to modify the hold-down straps for the rear battery box to open the
> lid fully.
>
> >
> > Have you looked at the underside of the car to be sure you don't have
> some
> > cracking of the unibody at the front suspension area and maybe the rear.
> I
> > had an old rabbit once that had a large crack that caused my front be out
> > alignment and would make my braking spongey. When I found the problem it
> had
> > been welded up once and had cracked again. The car was unsafe to drive. I
> > ditched it and took all the good stuff out and put it into an newer one
> and
> > nicer one that I had picked up for $200 bucks. It had a bad engine. So
> check
> > for that kind of stuff too. Cracks can be hard to see. Your car should be
> up
> > and level if all is good. Too much weight may just negate any of the work
> > you have done.
>
> The car was last on the shop hoist about three years ago. Everytime
> it's been up so where I can get underneath it, a crack has never been seen.
>
> I believe the alignment has always been this way as a conversion. But I
> may dig back into the older records from the mid-90s and double check
> the alignment #s.
>
> It's quite possible that the issue is from an accident. When I was
> shopping around for a place to have the car painted and minor body work
> done back in late '96, one shop did note clamp marks on the seams on the
> underside of the body, indicating the car had been realigned in a
> bodyshop after an accident. It's conceivable that if there was actually
> an accident, and say the car was pushed against a curb (or driven
> against a curb), that could have bent the rear axle beam a bit. Just
> speculation, though.
>
> >
> > Go Lithium. Lighter in weight and you get to go further per charge.
>
> Lithium is enticing; however $$$ and lack of personal shop facilities
> preclude going down that route. I can handle some jobs here at the apt
> carport (even put in a new pack in early 2009), and chassis jobs are
> mostly handled by a mechanic I finally found to help me with this car;
> the person who helped me build this car in 1994 and whose garage I
> rented is no longer involved with EVs and is not available for work on
> this car, and the other person I worked with lived a goodly distance
> away and passed away a year and a half ago. And cost/mi is still lowest
> with flooded lead-acid. So "yes" on lithium, but "no" can't do it.
>
> Chuck
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>



--
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I or (813) 434 - 3884 (I think word phone
numbers can be fun and good mnemonics aid memory.)
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Chuck Hursch <[email protected]> wrote:
[snip]
> Pete, do you have an evalbum (or other) entry for your car? Do you have
> any efficiency #s for that Rabbit you ran as an EV (ie. mi/kwh upstream
> of the charger or downstream of the battery pack (wh/mi))? I'm curious
> as to how much more efficient your current car is compared to the
> Rabbit, and how much of that you think is due to the lighter weight and
> lower internal resistance (if that's the case) of the lithiums vs lead.
> When lithium makes me , a goodly amount of that is thinking about
> not hauling around all that lead weight.

Chuck,

On my Gizmo I could go about 4 mi/kWh out of the wall when I was using
eight 6V floodies. When I went to lithiums I have been averaging about
6 mi/kWh out of the wall. I really don't think much of that had to do
with the weight loss. When I went from 8V batteries to 6V batteries my
efficiency actually improved, probably due to the increase in plate
area reducing the effects of the internal resistance. My rig weighed
993lbs with the 6V battery pack. It now weighs 829lbs with lithium.
This is with an extra 80lbs of lithium since I went with a 2p20S pack
rather than just a 2p16s pack.

Ignoring stress on the vehicle components I really don't think the
change in weight makes that much difference in the range except in the
case of lead the internal resistance is so high that the higher
currents needed to accelerate or climb a hill at a given rate "waste"
more energy that is not gotten back through the extra momentum. With
the lithium I installed a CycleAnalyst and I don't see more than about
a half amp-hour more put into the pack than taken out. It doesn't
matter if I had a full throttle run or a gentle one. The CA doesn't
have any compensation for changes in current draw like some meters do.
I find it is not needed with lithium.

HTH,

-- =

David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328

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Chuck Hursch <[email protected]> wrote:
> [snip]
>> Pete, do you have an evalbum (or other) entry for your car? Do you have
>> any efficiency #s for that Rabbit you ran as an EV (ie. mi/kwh upstream
>> of the charger or downstream of the battery pack (wh/mi))? I'm curious
>> as to how much more efficient your current car is compared to the
>> Rabbit, and how much of that you think is due to the lighter weight and
>> lower internal resistance (if that's the case) of the lithiums vs lead.
>> When lithium makes me , a goodly amount of that is thinking about
>> not hauling around all that lead weight.
>
> Chuck,
>
> On my Gizmo I could go about 4 mi/kWh out of the wall when I was using
> eight 6V floodies. When I went to lithiums I have been averaging about
> 6 mi/kWh out of the wall. I really don't think much of that had to do
> with the weight loss. When I went from 8V batteries to 6V batteries my
> efficiency actually improved, probably due to the increase in plate
> area reducing the effects of the internal resistance. My rig weighed
> 993lbs with the 6V battery pack. It now weighs 829lbs with lithium.
> This is with an extra 80lbs of lithium since I went with a 2p20S pack
> rather than just a 2p16s pack.

My battery pack at 96V of floodies is about twice as heavy as yours was.
The car weighs roughly three times. My out-of-the-wall energy usage
is 2.3-2.5 mi/kwh, give or take. I have a 250' steep hill to get back
to the apt, but everywhere else I'm pretty much able to stay on the
flats, such as they are around here. On the odd days that I have to go
over to southern San Rafael, it appears easiest to go over the hill
through the residential area just west of the freeway; this way I can
climb that hill (probably 250-300') slowly enough to keep the amps down
to 200-250 or less. When I have to go over that hill, I notice that the
pack takes fractionally more kwh to charge back up than I would expect
it to given the odometer distance.

I would guess you have quite good range with your lithium pack. Could
you stretch to 75-100 miles without running the pack into the ground?
You probably have three times the wh or so in your lithium pack as
compared to the Pb-acid.
>
> Ignoring stress on the vehicle components I really don't think the
> change in weight makes that much difference in the range except in the
> case of lead the internal resistance is so high that the higher
> currents needed to accelerate or climb a hill at a given rate "waste"
> more energy that is not gotten back through the extra momentum. With
> the lithium I installed a CycleAnalyst and I don't see more than about
> a half amp-hour more put into the pack than taken out. It doesn't
> matter if I had a full throttle run or a gentle one. The CA doesn't
> have any compensation for changes in current draw like some meters do.
> I find it is not needed with lithium.
>
> HTH,
>


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