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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello to All,

Let's clear this up for everyone still following this thread.


damon henry wrote:

>
>First of all, WZ is running on an open drags night, and there is absolutely nothing at stake.
>

Partially true. There is not the same level of driver's pride or ego to
get bruised if we do not 'win', as there is in bracket racing which
focuses on the 'driver' not the 'car'. But, our goal at Plasma Boy
racing in addition to all the fun we're having, is to spread the EV word
and get folks excited about alternative energy. With that goal in mind,
there is a lot at stake in regards to how White Zombie fairs against
other street cars. Heads up style drag racing is perfect for our
mission. If we had poorer ETs compared to the gassers we run against
most of the time, or if the car never jumped ahead of the other cars off
the line the way it does, or if it broke-down most of the time on the
runs, or if it was simply just plain slow, this would be doing the
opposite of what we want to get done. So, looking at it this way, yes,
there 'is' a lot at stake.


>None of the spectators, which I am one of the most frequent ones, can even see the end of the track because of the way it is laid out with a bridge over the top about halfway down. In fact the racers often can't see the end of the track themselves because it is only marked by a couple of cones at the end. They often guess as to when they should lift.
>

All correct.


>There is never an indication of who crossed the line first. You get a clear view of the launch, and from the score board you can see each racers reaction time. As the cars dissapear out of view your eyes switch over to the score boards where they change over to each drivers trap speed and finally their final ETs. We all have to wait for the ETs to be posted to know who won the race.
>
>

Correct about the lack of a 'win' indicator, but only during heads up
style racing....the ET is everything, not the trap speed, not which
driver had the best reaction time, and not which one gets across the
finish line first. Now, certainly having a good reaction time, a good
launch (by both cars) and a side by side race down the strip is better
by far, than having one guy sit for a few seconds before he (or she)
takes off. It makes for a more 'grudge match' type of thing, and at
heads up style racing, I've never seen any racer not want to be the
first across the finish line. That said though, when Tim and I hit the
strip, our main purpose is to better our ETs over previous ones, and in
the process, perhaps also make a gas car not look so good, too :)

In bracket racing or something like a Craftsman series heads up race,
the 'win' indicator is definitely lit up, and it's definitely clear to
see. It was last night, Wednesday, in fact, when Tim and I took White
Zombie out and yes, competed in 1/8 mile bracket racing. On the first
race, we got the 'win' light. On the second race, we didn't and were
eliminated from officially racing, but we were then allowed to write TO
on our side glass indicating we were running 'time only' for the rest of
the night.

We had swapped out the tall 3:70 gears we tried for the super light
version of the car when powered by the lithium pack - a good idea that
worked as planned and delivered the car's best ever 1.58 60 ft. time and
a 114 mph trap speed, and put back in the 4:11 gear set that works
better for the much heavier lead acid powered version. The 3:70 gears,
just as I had figured, were too tall once we re-installed the 844 lb.
lead acid pack and added even more weight with the ~100 lb. 6 point roll
bar, and they produced much poorer 1.74-1.77 60 ft. times. The change
back to the 4:11 gears was another good idea that brought back our
normally strong the 60 ft. times. Last night on a cold track where
pretty much everyone was having back launches, we saw 1.6-something 60
ft. times again.

>Perhaps on the time slips there is a line that indicates who crossed the line first, although I am not sure one way or the other on that.
>

On the time slips for heads up racing, it says either 'Left 1st' of
'Right 1st'. On the time slips for bracket style racing, there is a
'win' indication for the appropriate lane and car number.


>Of all the races I've been to I've never seen any indication of who crossed first.
>
>

Go to Wednesday night bracket racing and you'll see it pretty clearly.
At heads up racing, you won't.


See Ya....John Wayland

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
ok guys ENOUGH OF THIS 5 YR OLD SHIT . YOU ARE TAKING THE ENJOYMENT OUT OF THE PIR AND THE EVDL so stop it now .
----- Original Message -----
From: John Wayland<mailto:[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 9:23 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Heads Up vs Bracket Racing, the 'WIN' Light, and a Gear Ratio Change (again)


Hello to All,

Let's clear this up for everyone still following this thread.


damon henry wrote:

>
>First of all, WZ is running on an open drags night, and there is absolutely nothing at stake.
>

Partially true. There is not the same level of driver's pride or ego to
get bruised if we do not 'win', as there is in bracket racing which
focuses on the 'driver' not the 'car'. But, our goal at Plasma Boy
racing in addition to all the fun we're having, is to spread the EV word
and get folks excited about alternative energy. With that goal in mind,
there is a lot at stake in regards to how White Zombie fairs against
other street cars. Heads up style drag racing is perfect for our
mission. If we had poorer ETs compared to the gassers we run against
most of the time, or if the car never jumped ahead of the other cars off
the line the way it does, or if it broke-down most of the time on the
runs, or if it was simply just plain slow, this would be doing the
opposite of what we want to get done. So, looking at it this way, yes,
there 'is' a lot at stake.


>None of the spectators, which I am one of the most frequent ones, can even see the end of the track because of the way it is laid out with a bridge over the top about halfway down. In fact the racers often can't see the end of the track themselves because it is only marked by a couple of cones at the end. They often guess as to when they should lift.
>

All correct.


>There is never an indication of who crossed the line first. You get a clear view of the launch, and from the score board you can see each racers reaction time. As the cars dissapear out of view your eyes switch over to the score boards where they change over to each drivers trap speed and finally their final ETs. We all have to wait for the ETs to be posted to know who won the race.
>
>

Correct about the lack of a 'win' indicator, but only during heads up
style racing....the ET is everything, not the trap speed, not which
driver had the best reaction time, and not which one gets across the
finish line first. Now, certainly having a good reaction time, a good
launch (by both cars) and a side by side race down the strip is better
by far, than having one guy sit for a few seconds before he (or she)
takes off. It makes for a more 'grudge match' type of thing, and at
heads up style racing, I've never seen any racer not want to be the
first across the finish line. That said though, when Tim and I hit the
strip, our main purpose is to better our ETs over previous ones, and in
the process, perhaps also make a gas car not look so good, too :)

In bracket racing or something like a Craftsman series heads up race,
the 'win' indicator is definitely lit up, and it's definitely clear to
see. It was last night, Wednesday, in fact, when Tim and I took White
Zombie out and yes, competed in 1/8 mile bracket racing. On the first
race, we got the 'win' light. On the second race, we didn't and were
eliminated from officially racing, but we were then allowed to write TO
on our side glass indicating we were running 'time only' for the rest of
the night.

We had swapped out the tall 3:70 gears we tried for the super light
version of the car when powered by the lithium pack - a good idea that
worked as planned and delivered the car's best ever 1.58 60 ft. time and
a 114 mph trap speed, and put back in the 4:11 gear set that works
better for the much heavier lead acid powered version. The 3:70 gears,
just as I had figured, were too tall once we re-installed the 844 lb.
lead acid pack and added even more weight with the ~100 lb. 6 point roll
bar, and they produced much poorer 1.74-1.77 60 ft. times. The change
back to the 4:11 gears was another good idea that brought back our
normally strong the 60 ft. times. Last night on a cold track where
pretty much everyone was having back launches, we saw 1.6-something 60
ft. times again.

>Perhaps on the time slips there is a line that indicates who crossed the line first, although I am not sure one way or the other on that.
>

On the time slips for heads up racing, it says either 'Left 1st' of
'Right 1st'. On the time slips for bracket style racing, there is a
'win' indication for the appropriate lane and car number.


>Of all the races I've been to I've never seen any indication of who crossed first.
>
>

Go to Wednesday night bracket racing and you'll see it pretty clearly.
At heads up racing, you won't.


See Ya....John Wayland

_______________________________________________
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http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev<http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev>
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
>
> Go to Wednesday night bracket racing and you'll see it pretty clearly.
> At heads up racing, you won't.
>
>
> See Ya....John Wayland


Maybe I would if I could hear about them before Thursday morning :) Are you racing this weekend, my dad wants to come watch?

damon
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
What is it about explaining how racing works that you find so offensive? Most people seem to appreciate the races more if they understand the rules.

damon

> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 10:38:20 -0500
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heads Up vs Bracket Racing, the 'WIN' Light, and a Gear Ratio Change (again)
>
> ok guys ENOUGH OF THIS 5 YR OLD SHIT . YOU ARE TAKING THE ENJOYMENT OUT OF THE PIR AND THE EVDL so stop it now .

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Hi John,
So now I'm really curious... The 60 ft. times were better. I have no arguement there, for essentially the same motor torque you get more wheel torque, and thus more acceleration by increasing the gear ratio.

As I had mentioned to you my concern is that you would lose the top end because the motor is spinning too fast at the end of the track.

You didn't mention how the change effected the overall times, or the speed at the end of the track. Were you able to run full 1/4 mile runs, or did you have to let off after the 1/8th mile?

And I'm with Damon, you should let us know ahead of time so we can come out to help.

Regards,
Chris Brune

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: John Wayland <[email protected]>
>
> We had swapped out the tall 3:70 gears we tried for the super light
> version of the car when powered by the lithium pack - a good idea that
> worked as planned and delivered the car's best ever 1.58 60 ft. time and
> a 114 mph trap speed, and put back in the 4:11 gear set that works
> better for the much heavier lead acid powered version. The 3:70 gears,
> just as I had figured, were too tall once we re-installed the 844 lb.
> lead acid pack and added even more weight with the ~100 lb. 6 point roll
> bar, and they produced much poorer 1.74-1.77 60 ft. times. The change
> back to the 4:11 gears was another good idea that brought back our
> normally strong the 60 ft. times. Last night on a cold track where
> pretty much everyone was having back launches, we saw 1.6-something 60
> ft. times again.

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Hello to All,

Chris Brune wrote:

>my concern is that you would lose the top end because the motor is spinning too fast at the end of the track.
>
>

We'll see this Saturday, I guess.

We did two high 11s back in late June when the highest current we tried
was 1000 battery amps, an 11.948 @ 109.75 mph and an 11.960 @ 110 mph
with the 4:11 gears, With the left over 3:70 gears from the super light
lithium version, the much heavier lead acid version with another ~ 100
more lbs. due to the 6 point roll bar with the current twisted way up to
1500 amps at the NEDRA races last weekend, ran 11.97 @ 108.56 mph and an
11.882 @ 109.58 mph. Compared to the 4:11 equipped version, the top
speed was slightly down and the hole shot was 1/10 second slower even
with a whopping 500 more battery amps. The car will leave the line
quicker for sure (we proved this Wednesday night) and I believe it will
also hit a higher top speed with the 4:11 gears and 1500 battery amps. I
predict that once the batteries are fully warmed up and agitated, WZ
will run 11.7 @ 111 mph this weekend with the lower gears.

>You didn't mention how the change effected the overall times, or the speed at the end of the track. Were you able to run full 1/4 mile runs, or did you have to let off after the 1/8th mile?
>
>

It was 1/8 mile drags only, so Tim lifted after the 1/8 mile marker.
There were no 1/4 mile ETs or trap speeds. The 1/8 mile trap speeds were
in the high 80's, with 88.5 the highest.

>And I'm with Damon, you should let us know ahead of time so we can come out to help.
>
>
>
Sorry about that. You guys know, that we love to have your support there!

It was an uncertainty whether or not we were even going to make the
Wednesday night drag races. I didn't want to tell everyone if we weren't
even sure if we could pull it off...plus, it was on a weekday night that
doesn't fit in with most folk's work and family stuff too well.

I really didn't even consider the Wednesday night 'Beeches Cruise-in
Drags' thing until Sunday, the day after the big weekend races. I wanted
to switch back to the lower gears and thought time trials on Wednesday
would be perfect to sort things out...and, our cruddy weather was
supposed to turn back to summer with mid 80s again. Calls on Sunday to
my 'gear guy' went unanswered, but I got a hold of him on Monday night,
where he said he'd do a rush job and get it done in one day for me.
Tuesday morning then, at definitely the last minute, Tim and I made
plans to keep our uniforms on and continue wrenching after work at my
place where we'd pull the rear end. Then, I'd drive the third member
nearly 30 miles away to Wilsonville to the gear guy.

After delivering the differential to Dan the gear man, I got home at
near 10:00 pm Tuesday night. Both Tim and I started work very early on
Wednesday so we could get off work a little earlier than usual, so my
day began at 5:00 am. The new rear end was ready to pick up after 2:30,
and through heavier than normal early afternoon traffic, I worked my way
back to Wilsonville to retrieve the third member (properly set up). I
then then fought my way back to Portland through near stand-still
traffic due to light rail construction on I-205 plus two, count 'em, two
wrecks along the way! Tim was already at the EV juice bar and was doing
changes to the five point harness mounts, when I got there at close to
4:00 pm. We had the car buttoned up and ready for the track by 5-ish,
but after again fighting rush hour traffic, we weren't through the gates
until nearly 6:00 pm! Like I said, it was a last minute thing that we
barely pulled off.

We 'are' racing again this Saturday night at what should be a really fun
EVent, the 'Street Warriors' all street legal drags. If your car's not
street legal, you can't race. The gates open at 4:00. Along with drag
racing, there's also an audio competition and other cool stuff.

See Ya.....John Wayland

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
> Chris Brune wrote:
>
>>my concern is that you would lose the top end because the motor is
>>spinning too fast at the end of the track.
>>

I'm not sure that would be bad. I suspect if you don't hit redline before
you get to the end, your losing ET. Let's say it's a 12 second run, and 11
seconds into it you redline and you quit gaining speed. How much would a
little extra speed for 1 second gain you? Something, but not much. On the
other hand, if the lower gearing gets you a harder launch, and you gain
additional speed at the start, you're going faster for the first 11 seconds
to make up for the loss in the 12th second. It seems counter-intuitive to
give up accelerating before the end, but I'll take more speed for 11 seconds
over more speed for 1 second. The example falls apart if you're traction or
drivetrain momentum limited so the lower gearing doesn't buy you anything,
but I don't think that is the case in this example. Times will tell.

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