[EVDL List]

Replacing incandescent automotive lighting bulbs with LED ones

Its "OT" to discuss the TeaBagger's flap on the NRDC's effort to
drop 100 year old lighting technology for more efficient ones
(please do-not do that here).

My topic is EV-related about use of more efficient automotive lighting.

>From what I have read, NRDC's efforts are focusing on non-automotive
lighting (at this time) in an effort to reduce power plant
electricity waste.

I sense it goes beyond the "Well good, that's more electricity for us
EV'rs" initial feeling one might have, to at some point, automotive
lighting will need to be upgraded to the 21st century. While we do
not have to do anything right now, some questions come to mind that
might be interesting to ponder:

-How much power is incandescent EV lighting using?
(head lamps, turn signals, back up lights, dome, and gauge cluster
back-lighting, etc.)

-Where does one go to explore non-incandescent automotive lighting?
(Online, Auto-stores, ???)

-Who has the best prices?
(Got URL?)

-What is the life span of an automotive LED light?
(Write them in your will for the great-grandkids?)

-How much would be saved by switching to LED lighting?
(Pennies, Dollars, Sense?)

-How far would switching go to show how serious EV drivers are
about conserving resources?
(She's even using LEDs to save power ... )

-What is the cost analysis of staying incandescent to getting
with the program?
(Are you part of the problem, or the solution?)


In the excerpt of the NRDC page below, it states how higher wattage
LED lights have to be designed to dissipate the heat from the base,
and diffuse the light emission radiation to be comparable to using
incandescent lighting.


-
http://www.nrdc.org/energy/lightbulbs/
Are today's LED bulbs ready to work as substitutes for
incandescents?

photo: Wade Brooks/Flickr LED bulbs require cooling fins at the base
to avoid overheating.

They are a good choice for many applications, but not yet for screw-
based sockets because of the way they give off heat. Where
incandescent bulbs radiate heat from the glass, LEDs radiate heat
from their bases, where it's more difficult to dissipate. This can
impair their efficiency.

Another problem that LED makers are working with is that because of
the way LEDs make light -- in narrow beams -- current LEDs are best
suited as directional light sources. For omni-directional coverage,
when you need to light a whole room, current LEDs might not be best.
But in some uses, they're a good fit, such as for recessed ceiling
lights ...
-




{brucedp.150m.com}


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bruce parmenter wrote:

>
> Replacing incandescent automotive lighting bulbs with LED ones
>

This has been discussed before. HID vs halogen vs LED vs fluorescent... In
general, switching to LEDs doesn't save much money or energy. Lighting
power consumption is totally dwarfed by your traction motor, heating
elements, and the air blower fan. The only way it really saves money is if
reducing lighting loads allows the use of a lower powered (and less
expensive) DC/DC converter. At most I'd guess you'd save no more than 200W
(typically 80W or less), which is more than a "typical" lighting load. So
driving only at night would mean 200W x 1Hr or 200WHrs of energy - about
1.7 AHrs from a 120V pack.

> -How much power is incandescent EV lighting using?
> (head lamps, turn signals, back up lights, dome, and gauge cluster
> back-lighting, etc.)

Head lamps - 55/65W each (~35W each for HID)
Turn signals - 27W each (1156/1157 style bulbs)
Marker lights - 8W each (ditto)
Gauge cluster bulbs ~3W each

Typical driving (at night) would be 2 headlamps, 4 markers, 10 gauge lamps
for a total of about 170W. Of that, about 60W could be replaced by LED
equivalents. An 1156 LED bulb runs about 3W.

Replacing typical headlamps with HIDs and turn/marker lights with LEDs
would bring that 170W down to about 90W.

>
> -Where does one go to explore non-incandescent automotive lighting?
> (Online, Auto-stores, ???)

Online. Places like http://www.superbrightleds.com


> -What is the life span of an automotive LED light?
> (Write them in your will for the great-grandkids?)

Forever if they're quality lamps (>100,000 hours)


> -How much would be saved by switching to LED lighting?
> (Pennies, Dollars, Sense?)

Not much if anything. The biggest savings would be the ability to use a
slightly smaller DC/DC converter, although the biggest power users are
rear window defrosters and the air blower fan (not to mention the HV
heating elements).


> In the excerpt of the NRDC page below, it states how higher wattage
> LED lights have to be designed to dissipate the heat from the base,
> and diffuse the light emission radiation to be comparable to using
> incandescent lighting.

Cooling for multi-watt LEDs is not trivial and has a big effect on
lifetime. Some "replacement" lamps are actually small circuit boards (2" x
2" for example) with an array of LEDs on one side. Cooling is done by the
PCB and not the lamp holder. Light diffusion can be an issue, but there
are replacement lamps with fairly large emission angles (140 degrees).

-Adrian

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[EVDL List]

In all the arguments about LED vs. incandescent costs there's one that
makes sense to me and can be a real money saver. It's very rare, but
if it happens to you it's a big deal. There's a very small but
measurable difference between the time it takes for an LED to
illuminate vs. an incandescent bulb. It is only in the range of tenths
or hundredths of a second. But on an average day, how many near misses
are there when someone slams on their brakes and the person behind
them has to react quickly to avoid "contact." It doesn't matter if
it's a dog running across the street or someone not paying attention
to a stop light or stop sign. And please, no soap boxers admonishing
the world about following too close, stuff happens. But that brief
difference in reaction time can make a difference of a few feet in
your stopping point. And if that allows you to stop "behind" the
bumper in front of you instead of "not behind" the bumper in front of
you, there's where you can save a lot of money. Thank that person for
having LED brake lights.

On any given day there are innumerable lucky misses and many not so
lucky hits. If LED brake lights prevent a portion of those accidents,
even if only by the skin of your teeth, the savings are significant.
As they say, a miss is as good as a mile.

I know, it's a little abstract, but it's real and measurable.

DAC

Rick Beebe <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 03/09/2011 05:56 PM, Adrian DeLeon wrote:
>>> -How much would be saved by switching to LED lighting?
>>> (Pennies, Dollars, Sense?)
>
> I doubt anything. I replaced the tail/brake lights in my Miata with LEDs
> just because it was cool. Cost-wise, it's hard to justify $18/per bulb
> vs $2.50 for an incandescent. And the fact that it'll last forever (a
> "truth" which has not been borne out in my experience), is sort of
> irrelevant because the incandescent ones last pretty much forever too.
> Last summer I replaced a turn signal bulb on my truck. In my parts box I
> had an 1156 bulb that I bought in 1990 (the second in a package of 2).
>
> That said, the price of LED bulbs is dropping rapidly and I think
> they're going to replace incandescents anyway.
>
> Headlights are different. Those blow fairly regularly and I think the
> power savings could be significant enough to make it worth
> investigating. I'm not sure that LED headlights are quite "there" yet,
> though.
>
> --Rick
>
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-- =

http://www.evalbum.com/2149

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[EVDL List]

Re: headlights. I considered LEDs but (as menitoned earlier in this thread)
everything I read suggested that they aren't yet up to the task.

To save a few AHrs I switched from the standard headlight bulbs (halogen?)
which are rated at 55W to Xenon which are rated at 35W. That means a 36%
drop in Ahr consumption. As a bonus I find I can see better - the beam
seems to be more well-defined. Double bonus as far as I'm concerned.

btw - it's not just a matter of switching bulbs. Xenons require "ballasts"
(and other parts depending on how much electronic stuff your vehicle has).
I only needed the ballasts and 4 bulbs on my EV http://evalbum.com/1974 , so
converting to Xenon ended up costing me about $130. Don't know what that
means for "pay back" time, but reducing my energy consumption alone was
worth it to me.

- Peter Flipsen Jr

dave cover <[email protected]> wrote:

> In all the arguments about LED vs. incandescent costs there's one that
> makes sense to me and can be a real money saver. It's very rare, but
> if it happens to you it's a big deal. There's a very small but
> measurable difference between the time it takes for an LED to
> illuminate vs. an incandescent bulb. It is only in the range of tenths
> or hundredths of a second. But on an average day, how many near misses
> are there when someone slams on their brakes and the person behind
> them has to react quickly to avoid "contact." It doesn't matter if
> it's a dog running across the street or someone not paying attention
> to a stop light or stop sign. And please, no soap boxers admonishing
> the world about following too close, stuff happens. But that brief
> difference in reaction time can make a difference of a few feet in
> your stopping point. And if that allows you to stop "behind" the
> bumper in front of you instead of "not behind" the bumper in front of
> you, there's where you can save a lot of money. Thank that person for
> having LED brake lights.
>
> On any given day there are innumerable lucky misses and many not so
> lucky hits. If LED brake lights prevent a portion of those accidents,
> even if only by the skin of your teeth, the savings are significant.
> As they say, a miss is as good as a mile.
>
> I know, it's a little abstract, but it's real and measurable.
>
> DAC
>
>
>
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SLPinfo.org wrote:
> Re: headlights. I considered LEDs... but everything I read suggested
> that they aren't yet up to the task.

I agree. They are much more expensive, and have lower efficiency than
HIDs. LEDs are mainly used for fashion and style. They'll get better...
but they aren't better today.

> btw - it's not just a matter of switching bulbs. Xenons require
> "ballasts" (and other parts...)

EVs offer an interesting opportunity. Fluorescent, street lights, and
other HIDs that run on the AC line have been around for many decades.
They don't need expensive electronics, because they already have high
voltage available from the AC line.

Cars don't have high voltage; so they require an inverter to step the
12v way up high enough to operate the lamps.

But EVs *do* have a source of high voltage -- the traction pack! It
would be far easier to design HIDs that run on pack voltage. In fact,
many ordinary $5 compact fluorescents will work on DC packs in the
144-192vdc range.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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[EVDL List]

I'm wondering if there are any headlight equivalent bulbs which will run
directly at pack voltage. ( I know, everyone has a different pack voltage)
Does anyone know of any?
This would eliminate the large load from the DC-DC converter so a smaller
one could be used as noted.
Would this make the headlight dim noticeably when you go up a hill?
Would you have to replace the headlight sockets to handle the higher
voltage?

Also, has anyone replaced or rewound their blower motor to run on pack
voltage?

Mike Shipway-

Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:

> SLPinfo.org wrote:
> > Re: headlights. I considered LEDs... but everything I read suggested
> > that they aren't yet up to the task.
>
> I agree. They are much more expensive, and have lower efficiency than
> HIDs. LEDs are mainly used for fashion and style. They'll get better...
> but they aren't better today.
>
> > btw - it's not just a matter of switching bulbs. Xenons require
> > "ballasts" (and other parts...)
>
> EVs offer an interesting opportunity. Fluorescent, street lights, and
> other HIDs that run on the AC line have been around for many decades.
> They don't need expensive electronics, because they already have high
> voltage available from the AC line.
>
> Cars don't have high voltage; so they require an inverter to step the
> 12v way up high enough to operate the lamps.
>
> But EVs *do* have a source of high voltage -- the traction pack! It
> would be far easier to design HIDs that run on pack voltage. In fact,
> many ordinary $5 compact fluorescents will work on DC packs in the
> 144-192vdc range.
>
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
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Mike Shipway wrote:

> I'm wondering if there are any headlight equivalent bulbs which will run
> directly at pack voltage. ( I know, everyone has a different pack
> voltage)
> Does anyone know of any?

Even better would be finding an AC inverter that runs on pack voltage.
Think of all the commodity parts you could power - water pumps, brushless
fans, space heaters, automatic timers, phone chargers... Anything with an
AC plug. Not to mention low cost circuit breakers and relays. And using
your EV as an emergency power center would be a no brainer!

So who will invent the AC battery?

-Adrian

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Adrian DeLeon wrote:

>
> Even better would be finding an AC inverter that runs on pack voltage.

Exeltech sells inverters that run on input voltages up to 120v (and possibly higher, but it's not obvious from the website).

Michaela Merz had one installed in her pickup conversion and she was very happy with it (in 2007).

--
Doug Weathers
http://www.gdunge.com
"There is no easy way from the Earth to the stars." - Seneca
"We choose to go to the Moon and do the other things - not because
they are easy, but because they are hard." - John F. Kennedy


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dave cover wrote:

> There's a very small but
> measurable difference between the time it takes for an LED to
> illuminate vs. an incandescent bulb.

Here's what Victor of Metric Mind says about this:

<http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/lighting.htm>

--
Doug Weathers
http://www.gdunge.com
"There is no easy way from the Earth to the stars." - Seneca
"We choose to go to the Moon and do the other things - not because
they are easy, but because they are hard." - John F. Kennedy

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[EVDL List]

On 11 Mar 2011 at 11:54, Mike Shipway wrote:

> Would this make the headlight dim noticeably when you go up a hill?

Yes, and that's exactly what happened on the old Citicars which tapped the
48v traction battery for their 12v power. It was an annoyance and a hazard,
especially as you approached the limits of your range.

I think most or all of those early C-cars were eventually converted with
separate 12v marine batteries for the accessories.

In this case you'd probably want to prevent the dimming with a DCC
converter that would stabilise the voltage. I guess if you were going to
need that anyway, you could make it (nearly) universal in input and/or
output voltage, so you could operate any headlight of any voltage from any
battery of any voltage.

Thinking a little more about it, this voltage flexibility would be great for
a hobbyist's aftermarket device. But such a device strikes me as sort of
gilding the lily anyway. If your conversion glider comes with 12v
headlights, to me it makes sense to use them as-is, even if that means
converting your traction battery voltage down to 12 volts and the letting
the headlight circuit convert it back to whatever higher voltage the lights
need.

Maybe such a double conversion wastes a little energy, but the return from
improving it is pretty small for significant expense.

OTOH, you could also argue that aggressive energy conservation (at
significant cost) is part of what made the difference between a garden
variety conversion and the Solectria Force 20 years ago. The Force used
markedly less energy per mile than most conversions, thanks to James
Worden's attention to efficiency - notably replacing the stock transaxle
with a light, low friction one.

Now if you were building such a headlight driver into a factory EV, that
would be a different story. There you're designing from the ground up
anyway, and you can build in such efficiencies (or at least you should).
There too, voltage of the traction battery and lights would be fixed by
design, and the DCC could probably be simpler and cheaper.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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[EVDL List]

Here's an inverter that takes 120-144 pack voltage and makes 120VAC. $450.
http://electricbluemotors.com/blueflash120.html


Doug Weathers wrote:
>
>

Adrian DeLeon wrote:
>
>>
>> Even better would be finding an AC inverter that runs on pack voltage.
>
> Exeltech sells inverters that run on input voltages up to 120v (and
> possibly higher, but it's not obvious from the website).
>
> Michaela Merz had one installed in her pickup conversion and she was very
> happy with it (in 2007).
>
> --
> Doug Weathers
> http://www.gdunge.com
> "There is no easy way from the Earth to the stars." - Seneca
> "We choose to go to the Moon and do the other things - not because
> they are easy, but because they are hard." - John F. Kennedy
>
>
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