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Discussion Starter #1
Below is what sounds like the answer to our prayers. However it may be a
hoax or a lie designed to filtch investors. This kind of free or amazing
energy source comes up every once in a while on this list so the below
article is a textbook example of what I call feeding the pigeons. We all
are the pigeons. One tip off is time and money will be needed to prove the
process. The other is the question of weather the radio frequency power
input is offset by the power output of the flame of (chuckle) burning salt
water. If you see something like this below turn on your bs detector. No
offense to Remy or the ET list. He is just passing along information from
many sources. He lets you make the decision as to the truth of the
articles. In the past EV list members have ferreted out lies. So keep your
money in your pocket and make sure devices or other methods of fuel are
proven before investing. Lawrence Rhodes....

Salt water as fuel? Erie man hopes so
Posted by: "Remy Chevalier" [email protected] cleannewworld
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:20 am ((PDT))

Salt water as fuel? Erie man hopes so
Sunday, September 09, 2007
By David Templeton, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07252/815920-85.stm

For obvious reasons, scientists long have thought that salt water couldn't
be burned.

So when an Erie man announced he'd ignited salt water with the
radio-frequency generator he'd invented, some thought it a was a hoax.

John Kanzius, a Washington County native, tried to desalinate seawater with
a generator he developed to treat cancer, and it caused a flash in the test
tube.

Within days, he had the salt water in the test tube burning like a candle,
as long as it was exposed to radio frequencies.

His discovery has spawned scientific interest in using the world's most
abundant substance as clean fuel, among other uses.

Rustum Roy, a Penn State University chemist, held a demonstration last week
at the university's Materials Research Laboratory in State College, to
confirm what he'd witnessed weeks before in an Erie lab.

"It's true, it works," Dr. Roy said. "Everyone told me, 'Rustum, don't be
fooled. He put electrodes in there.' "

But there are no electrodes and no gimmicks, he said.

Dr. Roy said the salt water isn't burning per se, despite appearances. The
radio frequency actually weakens bonds holding together the constituents of
salt water -- sodium chloride, hydrogen and oxygen -- and releases the
hydrogen, which, once ignited, burns continuously when exposed to the RF
energy field. Mr. Kanzius said an independent source measured the flame's
temperature, which exceeds 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit, reflecting an enormous
energy output.

As such, Dr. Roy, a founding member of the Materials Research Laboratory and
expert in water structure, said Mr. Kanzius' discovery represents "the most
remarkable in water science in 100 years."

But researching its potential will take time and money, he said. One
immediate question is energy efficiency: The energy the RF generator uses
vs. the energy output from burning hydrogen.

Dr. Roy said he's scheduled to meet tomorrow with U.S. Department of Energy
and Department of Defense officials in Washington to discuss the discovery
and seek research funding.

Mr. Kanzius said he powered a Stirling, or hot air, engine with salt water.
But whether the system can power a car or be used as an efficient fuel will
depend on research results.

"We will get our ideas together and check this out and see where it leads,"
Dr. Roy said. "The potential is huge.

"In the life sciences, the role of water is infinite, and this guy is doing
something new in using the most important and most abundant material on the
face of the earth."
Mr. Kanzius' discovery was an accident.

He developed the RF generator as a novel cancer treatment. His research in
targeting cancer cells with metallic nanoparticles then destroying them with
radio-frequency is proceeding at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center
and at the University of Texas' MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston.

Manuscripts updating the cancer research are in preparation for publication
in coming months, Mr. Kanzius said.

While Mr. Kanzius was demonstrating how his generator heated nanoparticles,
someone noted condensation inside the test tube and suggested he try using
his equipment to desalinate water.

So, Mr. Kanzius said, he put sea water in a test tube, then trained his
machine on it, producing an unexpected spark. In time he and laboratory
owners struck a match and ignited the water, which continued burning as long
as it remained in the radio-frequency field.

During several trials, heat from burning hydrogen grew hot enough to melt
the test tube, he said. Dr. Roy's tests on the machine last week provided
further evidence that the process is releasing and burning hydrogen from the
water. Tests on different water solutions and concentrations produced
various temperatures and flame colors.

"This is the most abundant element in the world. It is everywhere," Dr. Roy
said of salt water. "Seeing it burn gives me chills."

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Discussion Starter #2
This sort of pseudo-science isn't nearly as bad as stuff like EEstor.

This one is obviously fake; if you have a chemical reaction releasing
energy, the reactants must have a lower bonding energy than the
products. Salt and water have very high bonding energy; it takes a lot
of energy to break the bonds, and to get energy, you need to put them
into an even more stable state.

Another big red flag is that the guy said he burned salt water with
the same machine he made to cure cancer. Considering that blood
contains lots of salt and water, one of his machine's two purposes
(curing cancer and burning saltwater) doesn't work. I suspect it's
neither.

With something like EEstor, it's a lot harder. There's nothing
theoretically impossible about what they claim; it's just much, much
better than what we currently can manufacture. That's much more likely
to trick people into giving them money.

-Morgan LaMoore

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Discussion Starter #3
I mean, yes, they weaken the bonds of water with the RF, but when you
burn the hydrogen, what do you get? More water. If this really
produced energy, it would violate the first and second laws of
Thermodynamics. You start with water and electrical energy and end up
with water and even more electrical energy? Impossible.

That said, it may be a good method to generate hydrogen for storage in
fuel cells. It may or may not be more efficient than electrolysis.

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Discussion Starter #4
One of the well-known side-effect of high power radio
waves is that they can cause (low pressure) gasses
to light up.
For example it is easy to light up a Fluorescent Tube
in front of a radio antenna.
That does not mean that there is a lot of energy, just
that the current caused by the radio waves has enough
energy for the (low density) of gas atoms to change
state (get excited) and fall back, causing the light
effect.
I bet that when you try to measure the temp indicated
by the light effect, you will find that the *equivalent*
temp of a material to emit that light will be a very
high temp, thousands of degrees. It does not mean that
the ions actually have that temp, they only emit light
that has the same color as a surface of that temp.
Same as your computer monitor, if it has a CRT then you
can select which color it has by changing the temp
setting. It does not mean that it gets 5700 degrees or
so, it only indicates that a surface with that temp
emits that percentage of blue and yellow light.
Normally this light is caused by the current through
the lamp itself when connected to the grid.
But an external RF field can induce the same type of
current, so the lamp lights up all the same.
It usually has poor efficiency, to light up a lamp this
way you will need a few Watts of power in the lamp, but
due to the small part of the field present in the lamp
it often takes a 100 Watt radio to generate enough field
and the radio will consume between 300 to 500 Watt to
create this output.
I know simpler ways to waste energy....

BTW, I agree on the BS detector, but in this case I have
the idea that people do not even understand what they are
dealing with, so it is even a step earlier.

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 9:21 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] How to spot a hoax or someone's trying to make money.

Below is what sounds like the answer to our prayers. However it may be a hoax or a lie designed to filtch investors. This kind of free or amazing energy source comes up every once in a while on this list so the below article is a textbook example of what I call feeding the pigeons. We all are the pigeons. One tip off is time and money will be needed to prove the process. The other is the question of weather the radio frequency power input is offset by the power output of the flame of (chuckle) burning salt water. If you see something like this below turn on your bs detector. No offense to Remy or the ET list. He is just passing along information from many sources. He lets you make the decision as to the truth of the articles. In the past EV list members have ferreted out lies. So keep your money in your pocket and make sure devices or other methods of fuel are proven before investing. Lawrence Rhodes....

Salt water as fuel? Erie man hopes so
Posted by: "Remy Chevalier" [email protected] cleannewworld
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:20 am ((PDT))

Salt water as fuel? Erie man hopes so
Sunday, September 09, 2007
By David Templeton, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07252/815920-85.stm

For obvious reasons, scientists long have thought that salt water couldn't be burned.

So when an Erie man announced he'd ignited salt water with the radio-frequency generator he'd invented, some thought it a was a hoax.

John Kanzius, a Washington County native, tried to desalinate seawater with a generator he developed to treat cancer, and it caused a flash in the test tube.

Within days, he had the salt water in the test tube burning like a candle, as long as it was exposed to radio frequencies.

His discovery has spawned scientific interest in using the world's most abundant substance as clean fuel, among other uses.

Rustum Roy, a Penn State University chemist, held a demonstration last week at the university's Materials Research Laboratory in State College, to confirm what he'd witnessed weeks before in an Erie lab.

"It's true, it works," Dr. Roy said. "Everyone told me, 'Rustum, don't be fooled. He put electrodes in there.' "

But there are no electrodes and no gimmicks, he said.

Dr. Roy said the salt water isn't burning per se, despite appearances. The radio frequency actually weakens bonds holding together the constituents of salt water -- sodium chloride, hydrogen and oxygen -- and releases the hydrogen, which, once ignited, burns continuously when exposed to the RF energy field. Mr. Kanzius said an independent source measured the flame's temperature, which exceeds 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit, reflecting an enormous energy output.

As such, Dr. Roy, a founding member of the Materials Research Laboratory and expert in water structure, said Mr. Kanzius' discovery represents "the most remarkable in water science in 100 years."

But researching its potential will take time and money, he said. One immediate question is energy efficiency: The energy the RF generator uses vs. the energy output from burning hydrogen.

Dr. Roy said he's scheduled to meet tomorrow with U.S. Department of Energy and Department of Defense officials in Washington to discuss the discovery and seek research funding.

Mr. Kanzius said he powered a Stirling, or hot air, engine with salt water.
But whether the system can power a car or be used as an efficient fuel will depend on research results.

"We will get our ideas together and check this out and see where it leads,"
Dr. Roy said. "The potential is huge.

"In the life sciences, the role of water is infinite, and this guy is doing something new in using the most important and most abundant material on the face of the earth."
Mr. Kanzius' discovery was an accident.

He developed the RF generator as a novel cancer treatment. His research in targeting cancer cells with metallic nanoparticles then destroying them with radio-frequency is proceeding at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center and at the University of Texas' MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston.

Manuscripts updating the cancer research are in preparation for publication in coming months, Mr. Kanzius said.

While Mr. Kanzius was demonstrating how his generator heated nanoparticles, someone noted condensation inside the test tube and suggested he try using his equipment to desalinate water.

So, Mr. Kanzius said, he put sea water in a test tube, then trained his machine on it, producing an unexpected spark. In time he and laboratory owners struck a match and ignited the water, which continued burning as long as it remained in the radio-frequency field.

During several trials, heat from burning hydrogen grew hot enough to melt the test tube, he said. Dr. Roy's tests on the machine last week provided further evidence that the process is releasing and burning hydrogen from the water. Tests on different water solutions and concentrations produced various temperatures and flame colors.

"This is the most abundant element in the world. It is everywhere," Dr. Roy said of salt water. "Seeing it burn gives me chills."

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

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Joined
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Cor van de Water wrote:
> One of the well-known side-effect of high power radio
> waves is that they can cause (low pressure) gasses
> to light up.
> For example it is easy to light up a Fluorescent Tube
> in front of a radio antenna.

An even easier example. If you have a neon lamp in something (a little
pilot light that glows orange), just hold it near the flyback
transformer of a CRT monitor. It will glow, with no wires connected!

And if you aim a non-contact temperature meter at it, it will read some
absurdly high temperature, even though the lamp is stone cold and you
can feel no heat at all in your fingers. The meter is using the color of
the light to estimate its temperature by color, as if it were a piece of
metal heated to orange-red heat.

It's a wonderful trick!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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