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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
But I smell something ...

Driving Green in California Costs Consumers More -- in Electricity Bills

http://www.familycarguide.com/blog/1053768_driving-green-in-california-costs-consumers-more---in-electricity-bills
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Sure, your electric bill will go up a bit, but look at the gasoline you did
not have to buy and may make a investment on your ICE vehicles that you
never drive or very little driven.

I only put in about one gallon a year in my ICE just to run it up once in a
while.

I run half by home heating on electricity when the outside temperature is
between 35 and 55 degrees F. At this temperature the base rate of
electricity is cheaper then the base rate of natural gas.

I just got back from my daily drive of 1.1 miles on a smooth dry road that
took only 6.5 minutes to charge using about 345 watt/hrs. Running my
computer and/or kitchen appliance uses more than that pre day.

Roland






----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Hymers" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 10:54 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Interesting ...


> But I smell something ...
>
> Driving Green in California Costs Consumers More -- in Electricity Bills
>
> http://www.familycarguide.com/blog/1053768_driving-green-in-california-costs-consumers-more---in-electricity-bills
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
What's interesting is that the Purdue professor, Wally Tyner, cited in
this article is a big Biofuels proponent. Just search his name, and
that is clearly what his bread and butter research is on. So... I
would not consider this a unbiased source.

However, its an interesting premise. Unless EV buyers sign up for
time of use metering, they may see substantial hikes in their electric
bill. But Wally states that oil would need to go to $171+/bbl for EVs
to become competitive. That obviously wrong. I can't imagine what
biased assumptions he must have made to justify that statement.

Say if you travel 1500 miles per month

If you have an EV that averages 300 Wh/mile and even if you pay $0.20/
kWh that comes to $90/month

$90 will buy you about 25 gallons of gas at todays prices, so you
would need a 60 mpg car to break even.

So, even at todays price and 20 cent/kWh EVs still look good.

Am I missing something

Dave Hymers wrote:

> But I smell something ...
>
> Driving Green in California Costs Consumers More -- in Electricity
> Bills
>
> http://www.familycarguide.com/blog/1053768_driving-green-in-california-costs-consumers-more---in-electricity-bills

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
It's interesting there is no cost per mile comparison at all in the article.
Just some statement about oil prices having to reach $171 for a Volt to be
economical ... well... not only do I find it hard to believe,
I haven't run any numbers, but we're not really that far off at least some
more spikes of $150/barrel ...

So we should all just wait ? .. lol

It's also interesting that they're looking at CA in particular because of
the tiered system, home of higher gas prices also.
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks for doing the legwork Roger ! excellent.

I'd post it as a comment to the article if I where you ;)
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Perhaps they are accounting for the higher capital cost of a Volt over an
economy car?




________________________________
From: Dave Hymers <[email protected]>
To: Roland Wiench <[email protected]>
Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 1:28:29 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Interesting ...

It's interesting there is no cost per mile comparison at all in the article.
Just some statement about oil prices having to reach $171 for a Volt to be
economical ... well... not only do I find it hard to believe,
I haven't run any numbers, but we're not really that far off at least some
more spikes of $150/barrel ...

So we should all just wait ? .. lol

It's also interesting that they're looking at CA in particular because of
the tiered system, home of higher gas prices also.



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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
My experience with charging my EV's has been that the cost of charging has
been about the same as running a load of clothes in the dryer or firing up
the hot tub (2 activities that most people never think twice before doing).
Just my personal experience.
Tom

"Roland Wiench" <[email protected]> wrote:

Sure, your electric bill will go up a bit, but look at the gasoline you did
not have to buy and may make a investment on your ICE vehicles that you
never drive or very little driven.

I only put in about one gallon a year in my ICE just to run it up once in a
while.

I run half by home heating on electricity when the outside temperature is
between 35 and 55 degrees F. At this temperature the base rate of
electricity is cheaper then the base rate of natural gas.

I just got back from my daily drive of 1.1 miles on a smooth dry road that
took only 6.5 minutes to charge using about 345 watt/hrs. Running my
computer and/or kitchen appliance uses more than that pre day.

Roland







----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Hymers" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Di...
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Awesome discussion :D

There are some folks commenting on the article coming to the exact same
conclusions; its biased, and the math is either skewed, not explained
properly or utterly biased itself.
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
During the ENRON debacle I ran across some research that said in
Southern California, if you covered the area of a house with solar cells
it would not only power itself but 8 other homes. Can't find it since
then, but it was illuminating to say the least!

Text of my comment on the article:

=====

This article has a high FUD factor (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) due to
an invalid assumption -- that a Californian isn't smart enough to change
their electrical rate plan to a time-of-day/market rate plan. Per the
original article from Purdue, California DOES have time-of-day/market
rate pricing, but this was largely ignored in this article as well as
the one from Purdue!

So if you're in California you buy your plug-in vehicle, you switch to
Real-Time/Market-Rate/Time-Of-Use billing and you charge overnight when
it's cheap. No problem. Or is it? Now THAT would be really
interesting AND valuable research to compare overnight historic
real-time-pricing data numbers to non-plugin vehicle fuel costs!

Or better yet, since you're in the Golden State, you leverage the
governmental and state incentives not only for your plug-in vehicle but
also throw up some PV solar panels... no fuel taxes AND a fixed cost for
electricity: A clever person solves a problem, a wise one avoids it.

[email protected]
Show OPEC where to stick it: Drive Electric!
www.illinois.edu/goto/twike
=====

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 2:33 PM
To: [email protected]; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Interesting ...

Sure, your electric bill will go up a bit, but look at the gasoline you
did
not have to buy and may make a investment on your ICE vehicles that you
never drive or very little driven.

I only put in about one gallon a year in my ICE just to run it up once
in a
while.

I run half by home heating on electricity when the outside temperature
is
between 35 and 55 degrees F. At this temperature the base rate of
electricity is cheaper then the base rate of natural gas.

I just got back from my daily drive of 1.1 miles on a smooth dry road
that
took only 6.5 minutes to charge using about 345 watt/hrs. Running my
computer and/or kitchen appliance uses more than that pre day.

Roland






----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Hymers" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 10:54 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Interesting ...


> But I smell something ...
>
> Driving Green in California Costs Consumers More -- in Electricity
Bills
>
>
http://www.familycarguide.com/blog/1053768_driving-green-in-california-c
osts-consumers-more---in-electricity-bills
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Larry Hagman has a stellar solar array for his mansion and could power
a dozen homes. It's enormous at I think 100kW. To stay on topic, I
bet he charges Ed Begley's EV when he visits :)

sean

On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 4:05 PM, Childress, Matthew
<[email protected]> wrote:
> During the ENRON debacle I ran across some research that said in
> Southern California, if you covered the area of a house with solar cells
> it would not only power itself but 8 other homes. Can't find it since
> then, but it was illuminating to say the least!
>
> Text of my comment on the article:
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
> This article has a high FUD factor (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) due to
> an invalid assumption -- that a Californian isn't smart enough to change
> their electrical rate plan to a time-of-day/market rate plan. Per the
> original article from Purdue, California DOES have time-of-day/market
> rate pricing, but this was largely ignored in this article as well as
> the one from Purdue!
>
> So if you're in California you buy your plug-in vehicle, you switch to
> Real-Time/Market-Rate/Time-Of-Use billing and you charge overnight when
> it's cheap. No problem. Or is it? Now THAT would be really
> interesting AND valuable research to compare overnight historic
> real-time-pricing data numbers to non-plugin vehicle fuel costs!
>
> Or better yet, since you're in the Golden State, you leverage the
> governmental and state incentives not only for your plug-in vehicle but
> also throw up some PV solar panels... no fuel taxes AND a fixed cost for
> electricity: A clever person solves a problem, a wise one avoids it.
>
> [email protected]
> Show OPEC where to stick it: Drive Electric!
> www.illinois.edu/goto/twike
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Roland Wiench
> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 2:33 PM
> To: [email protected]; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Interesting ...
>
> Sure, your electric bill will go up a bit, but look at the gasoline you
> did
> not have to buy and may make a investment on your ICE vehicles that you
> never drive or very little driven.
>
> I only put in about one gallon a year in my ICE just to run it up once
> in a
> while.
>
> I run half by home heating on electricity when the outside temperature
> is
> between 35 and 55 degrees F. At this temperature the base rate of
> electricity is cheaper then the base rate of natural gas.
>
> I just got back from my daily drive of 1.1 miles on a smooth dry road
> that
> took only 6.5 minutes to charge using about 345 watt/hrs. Running my
> computer and/or kitchen appliance uses more than that pre day.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Hymers" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 10:54 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] Interesting ...
>
>
>> But I smell something ...
>>
>> Driving Green in California Costs Consumers More -- in Electricity
> Bills
>>
>>
> http://www.familycarguide.com/blog/1053768_driving-green-in-california-c
> osts-consumers-more---in-electricity-bills
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-- =

Sean Korb [email protected] http://www.spkorb.org
'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Family Car Guide is asking for someone to pen a rebuttal to the piece after
I raised my concerns about it in a tweet...

Any input/ideas/volunteers ?
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Rick Beebe <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 01/20/2011 03:26 PM, Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
>> What's interesting is that the Purdue professor, Wally Tyner, cited in
>> this article is a big Biofuels proponent. Just search his name, and
>> that is clearly what his bread and butter research is on. So... I
>> would not consider this a unbiased source.
>>
>> However, its an interesting premise. Unless EV buyers sign up for
>> time of use metering, they may see substantial hikes in their electric
>> bill. But Wally states that oil would need to go to $171+/bbl for EVs
>> to become competitive. That obviously wrong. I can't imagine what
>> biased assumptions he must have made to justify that statement.
>>
>> Say if you travel 1500 miles per month
>>
>> If you have an EV that averages 300 Wh/mile and even if you pay $0.20/
>> kWh that comes to $90/month
>>
>> $90 will buy you about 25 gallons of gas at todays prices, so you
>> would need a 60 mpg car to break even.
>>
>> So, even at todays price and 20 cent/kWh EVs still look good.
>>
>> Am I missing something?
>
> Yes, the extra $10,000 it costs to buy the electric car in the first place.
>
> I don't agree with some of the numbers and conclusions in the study, but
> it's important to note that it doesn't appear to be saying "PHEVs aren't
> economical." It's actually saying "States--California in
> particular--should pay attention to their electric rates because those
> can slow the adoption of PHEVs."
>
> --Rick

Funny, I didn't read it that way. It drew the conclusion that oil prices would have to get above at least $171/bbl. It didn't say that electric cars need to come down in price. You need volume to bring prices down.

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
It gets better.

Here is a post from a blog called "Run On Sun" which some of you might know
about.
Jim did a rebuttal post on Perdue's "Shocking" study ;)

http://runonsun.com/~runons5/blogs/blog1.php/solworks/ecars/shocking-new-study-about-charging-evs

And apparently it generated quite a bit of "interest" from someone at
Perdue:

http://runonsun.com/~runons5/blogs/blog1.php/solworks/who-is-the-purdue-hacker-and-why-was-this-site-attacked
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