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Discussion Starter #1
On 21 Sep 2010 at 7:07, kevin lubot wrote:

> So far the only option [for configuring an NG3 charger] is to send in.

On 21 Sep 2010 at 7:15, fred wrote:

> Can anyone confirm that there is a password on this unit or that it's
> permanently locked out from making changes to the controller?

Annoying, isn't it, when the manufacturer locks you out of the gear you paid
your own hard-earned money for?

This is usually a good thing for NEVs and other EVs sold to consumers, where
you don't want some untrained mechanic tweaking stuff that could lead to
failed batteries or even a fire. I can also see concerns for liabilities.

But as EV hobbyists, most of us want to be able to change motors, swap
batteries, and tweak the pack voltage at will. We might be using 2 or 3
different motors and 5 or 6 battery packs in the car over its lifetime.
Most of us don't particularly want to ship the charger or controller off,
pay a 2- or 3-figure fee, and wait a few weeks while the distributor or
dealer makes the adjustments (sometimes more than once).

IMO, hobbyists need >well documented< access to the configuration of
controllers and chargers.

One reason I've always liked Brusa gear is that practically everything is
configurable, and the software to do the job is available to the end user.
But among sophisticated EV components, that's something of a rarity.

There are other less sophisticated controllers and chargers which aren't
microprocessor controlled, or at least not entirely. They're usually not as
configurable and not as smart, so maybe not as suitable for batteries which
require very careful treatment. However, the big plus is that you can
adjust them with a few simple potentiometers.

Back in the day, a user community developed open source replacement software
for popular mp3 players, too, opening up capabilities in the chipset that
the manufacturers didn't bother to exploit. Nowadays, it's smartphones that
get the can-opener treatment. Enough people now use them that there's a
canny user community enthusiastically "jailbreaking" new ones as they're
released.

Shouldn't something similar be possible with controllers and chargers?

Part of me's a bit leery of it, knowing that some users would probably
"brick" the gear, damage their EVs, and/or even hurt themselves. And I may
draw some fire from manufacturers and dealers for the idea. But a part of me
would like to see EV hobbyists crack open the back door to some of these
locked-down chargers and controllers, the way the phone jailbreakers do.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Discussion Starter #2
Yes this is faily annoying but I understand they want to hang on to their IP.
For now I have the problem solved with a timer and a 3.7hvc per cell cutoff
with the bms. This charger wouldnt have been my choice but it came with the
car (sloectria force) and was never used after replacing the brusa it came
with so I suppose I cant really complain.
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Recalibrate-Zivan-NG3-tp2548702p2551979.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Discussion Starter #3
EVDL Administrator wrote:
> Annoying, isn't it, when the manufacturer locks you out of the gear you paid
> your own hard-earned money for? ... IMO, hobbyists need >well documented<
> access to the configuration of controllers and chargers.

I agree completely! The situation is similar to PCs in their early days.
You *had* to be able to change and upgrade things, because the
technology was changing fast.

Manufacturers who sell "closed boxes" are behaving as if the technology
is completely stable, and won't change. They seem to think the motor,
controller, batteries, etc. are "forever", and if anything does require
repairs, replacement parts exactly like the original will be available.

The reality is that EVs are (and always have been) a fast evolving
technology. It is a near certainty that your batteries *won't* last the
life of the car, and that your next set of batteries *won't* be the same
as your last ones, so the charger *has* to be changed accordingly.

And, it is very likely that the manufacturer won't support their old
products a few years down the road. "Oh, that's the old model. It's been
discontinued, and we can't fix or upgrade it any more. You need to buy
our new one..."
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Discussion Starter #4
Roger W <[email protected]> wrote:
> I would have made this private if I had Dave's private address, so you can skip it if you want.
>

You do. Every email David sends tells you how to get his private email.



--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328

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Discussion Starter #5
Lee;

I totally agree.
I purchased a Zivan for my 65 Datsun, but I won't purchase another for
my next car.

What does everyone recommend buying based on:

- Charger with variable voltage, 120/240V
- All 3 phases programmable for current draw, duration, etc.
- Approx prices ?


Thanks;
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
http://www.evalbum.com/1366


-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Hart [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 9:46 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Key to the (EV) back door

EVDL Administrator wrote:
> Annoying, isn't it, when the manufacturer locks you out of the gear
> you paid your own hard-earned money for? ... IMO, hobbyists need >well

> documented< access to the configuration of controllers and chargers.

I agree completely! The situation is similar to PCs in their early days.

You *had* to be able to change and upgrade things, because the
technology was changing fast.

Manufacturers who sell "closed boxes" are behaving as if the technology
is completely stable, and won't change. They seem to think the motor,
controller, batteries, etc. are "forever", and if anything does require
repairs, replacement parts exactly like the original will be available.

The reality is that EVs are (and always have been) a fast evolving
technology. It is a near certainty that your batteries *won't* last the
life of the car, and that your next set of batteries *won't* be the same
as your last ones, so the charger *has* to be changed accordingly.

And, it is very likely that the manufacturer won't support their old
products a few years down the road. "Oh, that's the old model. It's been
discontinued, and we can't fix or upgrade it any more. You need to buy
our new one..."
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Dennis J wrote:

> What does everyone recommend buying based on:
>
> - Charger with variable voltage, 120/240V
> - All 3 phases programmable for current draw, duration, etc.
> - Approx prices ?

Brusa NLG5 range is available in 4 voltage ranges from 130v on up. It's
fully user programmable and IIRC you can have as many as 5 charging phases.
You can set limits on voltage, current, power, total amp-hours charged,
power/current drawn from mains, battery temperature, the list goes on.
Temperature compensation is programmable.

Power output is 3.3kW with 240v input and it will operate on 120v with
reduced power. These are very high quality Swiss-made chargers.

You won't like the price though. It's a bit over $3900 for the 130-260v
side air cooled model. There's a "lite" model at 200-520 volts, 1.6kW,
mostly intended for plug hybrid conversions, which costs ~$2800. Brusa are
sort of the Rolex of the EV world. ;-)

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
I would suggest getting 3 x elcon 1500W chargers,

they have an operating window of 100 - 265 vac.

when you want to charge fast, put all 3 outputs in parrallel, when you want
to charge slow, use just one.

when running on 208v 3-phase, put one on each phase.
when running on 240v single phase, put the inputs in parrallel.

Matt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Key to the (EV) back door


> Lee;
>
> I totally agree.
> I purchased a Zivan for my 65 Datsun, but I won't purchase another for
> my next car.
>
> What does everyone recommend buying based on:
>
> - Charger with variable voltage, 120/240V
> - All 3 phases programmable for current draw, duration, etc.
> - Approx prices ?
>
>
> Thanks;
> Dennis
> Elsberry, MO
> http://www.evalbum.com/1366
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lee Hart [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 9:46 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Key to the (EV) back door
>
> EVDL Administrator wrote:
>> Annoying, isn't it, when the manufacturer locks you out of the gear
>> you paid your own hard-earned money for? ... IMO, hobbyists need >well
>
>> documented< access to the configuration of controllers and chargers.
>
> I agree completely! The situation is similar to PCs in their early days.
>
> You *had* to be able to change and upgrade things, because the
> technology was changing fast.
>
> Manufacturers who sell "closed boxes" are behaving as if the technology
> is completely stable, and won't change. They seem to think the motor,
> controller, batteries, etc. are "forever", and if anything does require
> repairs, replacement parts exactly like the original will be available.
>
> The reality is that EVs are (and always have been) a fast evolving
> technology. It is a near certainty that your batteries *won't* last the
> life of the car, and that your next set of batteries *won't* be the same
> as your last ones, so the charger *has* to be changed accordingly.
>
> And, it is very likely that the manufacturer won't support their old
> products a few years down the road. "Oh, that's the old model. It's been
> discontinued, and we can't fix or upgrade it any more. You need to buy
> our new one..."
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3156 - Release Date: 09/24/10
14:34:00

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Discussion Starter #8
On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 11:33:22AM +0800, matt lacey wrote:
> I would suggest getting 3 x elcon 1500W chargers,
> they have an operating window of 100 - 265 vac.
>
> when you want to charge fast, put all 3 outputs in parrallel, when you want
> to charge slow, use just one.

I wonder if several chargers in parallel might interact with one
another badly?

>
> when running on 208v 3-phase, put one on each phase.
> when running on 240v single phase, put the inputs in parrallel.

My 3KW Zivan is broken and in for repair. I've been using my 1.5KW
Elcon. I plan to use two of these:
http://is.gd/ftDFv
for "add on" chargers as you describe. No recommendation on the
supplier yet but they did deliver three single cell chargers that I
have found very handy.

If the above 1.5KW chargers "pan out" a 4.5KW setup would be about $1K.
That's about the limit of what my 20 amp BMS relay can handle. I
solicit suggestions on how the 20 amp relay can be used to control a
larger relay so that I could use more than three 1.5KW chargers at a
time.

I am configuring both 220vac and SB50 splitter cables to allow up to
three chargers to be easily plugged in parallel. The Elcon will be
on-board all the time and operates from either 110vac or 220vac. The
"JCKD" chargers as ordered (not yet received) operate only on 220vac
though they offer 110vac, 220vac, or 110vac+220vac; the dual voltage
at a 10% price premium.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 14 days 1 hours 40 minutes

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Discussion Starter #9
> I wonder if several chargers in parallel might interact with one
> another badly?

If charging lithium (so simple cc-cv profile), it should behave fine.

during cc all will put out their rated current.
during cc-cv crossover, they will change over a different time due to
manufacturing tolerance, but that won't matter too much.
the charger with the highest CV voltage will be the last to shut down, the
other two will shut down shortly after reaching CV stage as the the less
than 1.5A condition will be met.

Matt

----- Original Message -----
From: "Willie McKemie" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2010 6:55 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Key to the (EV) back door


> On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 11:33:22AM +0800, matt lacey wrote:
>> I would suggest getting 3 x elcon 1500W chargers,
>> they have an operating window of 100 - 265 vac.
>>
>> when you want to charge fast, put all 3 outputs in parrallel, when you
>> want
>> to charge slow, use just one.
>
> I wonder if several chargers in parallel might interact with one
> another badly?
>
>>
>> when running on 208v 3-phase, put one on each phase.
>> when running on 240v single phase, put the inputs in parrallel.
>
> My 3KW Zivan is broken and in for repair. I've been using my 1.5KW
> Elcon. I plan to use two of these:
> http://is.gd/ftDFv
> for "add on" chargers as you describe. No recommendation on the
> supplier yet but they did deliver three single cell chargers that I
> have found very handy.
>
> If the above 1.5KW chargers "pan out" a 4.5KW setup would be about $1K.
> That's about the limit of what my 20 amp BMS relay can handle. I
> solicit suggestions on how the 20 amp relay can be used to control a
> larger relay so that I could use more than three 1.5KW chargers at a
> time.
>
> I am configuring both 220vac and SB50 splitter cables to allow up to
> three chargers to be easily plugged in parallel. The Elcon will be
> on-board all the time and operates from either 110vac or 220vac. The
> "JCKD" chargers as ordered (not yet received) operate only on 220vac
> though they offer 110vac, 220vac, or 110vac+220vac; the dual voltage
> at a 10% price premium.
>
> --
> Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 14 days 1 hours 40 minutes
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3157 - Release Date: 09/25/10
01:16:00

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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