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Discussion Starter #1
Is there a formula for figuring out an approx energy use for a vehicle based on its mpg performance?

For example, if a car got 25 mpg on average, what would be the amount of kw needed to maintain highway speeds?

If there is no easy formula, is there a range of kw usage that would cover most typically used vehicles? i.e. 'X' kwatts for a small aerodynamic vehicle to 'Y' kwatts for say a standard 1/2 ton pickup truck?

I realize that this would probably only be estimates.

Any Ideas?

Jim
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Discussion Starter #2
Hello Jim,

You can use the Btu's per gallon method. The average gasoline btu's is
about 115,000 btu's per gallon. One kilowatt is 3412 btu's.
Engines vary in efficiency all the way down to 25% and a electric motor may
be as low as 80%. So if all the mechanical efficiency of both rigs are
equal then:

115,000 x 0.25 = 28,750 btus for the engine

28,750 / 3412 = 8.426 kilowatts.

8.326 kw x 0.80 = 6.66 kw for a electric motor

6.66 kw / 746 = 8.9 hp


If you take everything at 100% efficiency then:

115,000 btu's / 3412 = 33.7 kw

33.7 kw / 746 = 45 hp


Lets say that you vehicle is getting 300 watts per mile at 60 mph then a
engine at 100% efficiency would have to get:

33.7 kw / 300 = 112 mpg

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim L" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:49 AM
Subject: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?


> Is there a formula for figuring out an approx energy use for a vehicle
> based on its mpg performance?
>
> For example, if a car got 25 mpg on average, what would be the amount of
> kw needed to maintain highway speeds?
>
> If there is no easy formula, is there a range of kw usage that would cover
> most typically used vehicles? i.e. 'X' kwatts for a small aerodynamic
> vehicle to 'Y' kwatts for say a standard 1/2 ton pickup truck?
>
> I realize that this would probably only be estimates.
>
> Any Ideas?
>
> Jim
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

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Joined
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Would that 300 watts per mile be a representitive number? Or an optimum
number. I mean, would the average power consumption of the vehicles that are
built and talked about on this list consume about 300 watts per mile?

Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?


> Hello Jim,
>
> You can use the Btu's per gallon method. The average gasoline btu's is
> about 115,000 btu's per gallon. One kilowatt is 3412 btu's.
> Engines vary in efficiency all the way down to 25% and a electric motor
may
> be as low as 80%. So if all the mechanical efficiency of both rigs are
> equal then:
>
> 115,000 x 0.25 = 28,750 btus for the engine
>
> 28,750 / 3412 = 8.426 kilowatts.
>
> 8.326 kw x 0.80 = 6.66 kw for a electric motor
>
> 6.66 kw / 746 = 8.9 hp
>
>
> If you take everything at 100% efficiency then:
>
> 115,000 btu's / 3412 = 33.7 kw
>
> 33.7 kw / 746 = 45 hp
>
>
> Lets say that you vehicle is getting 300 watts per mile at 60 mph then a
> engine at 100% efficiency would have to get:
>
> 33.7 kw / 300 = 112 mpg
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim L" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:49 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
>
>
> > Is there a formula for figuring out an approx energy use for a vehicle
> > based on its mpg performance?
> >
> > For example, if a car got 25 mpg on average, what would be the amount of
> > kw needed to maintain highway speeds?
> >
> > If there is no easy formula, is there a range of kw usage that would
cover
> > most typically used vehicles? i.e. 'X' kwatts for a small aerodynamic
> > vehicle to 'Y' kwatts for say a standard 1/2 ton pickup truck?
> >
> > I realize that this would probably only be estimates.
> >
> > Any Ideas?
> >
> > Jim
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

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Joined
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim L" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?


> Would that 300 watts per mile be a representitive number? Or an optimum
> number. I mean, would the average power consumption of the vehicles that
> are
> built and talked about on this list consume about 300 watts per mile?
>
> Jim

For me, it is about 300 watts average. If I attack a 2 mile 7 percent grade
hill at 60 mph with my 7000 lb EV, then it could be over 1000 watts per
mile. Coming down that hill and and doing about another 2 mile roll out, it
then becomes 0 watts per mile where the motor is still rotating which runs
the rotating inverter-alternator which is still generating power for all the
accessories.

Most of my driving is at 10 to 25 mph on non level streets which I always
starting a down hill run first and then roller coast up for the rest of the
distance and may have only two stops a day. One stop at the destination and
one stop at home. No stop signs, no red lights and may drive for days
without seeing any other cars on the road.

In the winter, I will use twice the energy pushing through a foot of snow,
running three heating systems, seven fans, three pumps 14 external lights
and over 50 instrument lights.

Roland
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
>
>
> > Hello Jim,
> >
> > You can use the Btu's per gallon method. The average gasoline btu's is
> > about 115,000 btu's per gallon. One kilowatt is 3412 btu's.
> > Engines vary in efficiency all the way down to 25% and a electric motor
> may
> > be as low as 80%. So if all the mechanical efficiency of both rigs are
> > equal then:
> >
> > 115,000 x 0.25 = 28,750 btus for the engine
> >
> > 28,750 / 3412 = 8.426 kilowatts.
> >
> > 8.326 kw x 0.80 = 6.66 kw for a electric motor
> >
> > 6.66 kw / 746 = 8.9 hp
> >
> >
> > If you take everything at 100% efficiency then:
> >
> > 115,000 btu's / 3412 = 33.7 kw
> >
> > 33.7 kw / 746 = 45 hp
> >
> >
> > Lets say that you vehicle is getting 300 watts per mile at 60 mph then a
> > engine at 100% efficiency would have to get:
> >
> > 33.7 kw / 300 = 112 mpg
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jim L" <[email protected]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:49 AM
> > Subject: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
> >
> >
> > > Is there a formula for figuring out an approx energy use for a vehicle
> > > based on its mpg performance?
> > >
> > > For example, if a car got 25 mpg on average, what would be the amount
> > > of
> > > kw needed to maintain highway speeds?
> > >
> > > If there is no easy formula, is there a range of kw usage that would
> cover
> > > most typically used vehicles? i.e. 'X' kwatts for a small aerodynamic
> > > vehicle to 'Y' kwatts for say a standard 1/2 ton pickup truck?
> > >
> > > I realize that this would probably only be estimates.
> > >
> > > Any Ideas?
> > >
> > > Jim
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For subscription options, see
> > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

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Registered
Joined
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
No stop lights? No traffic? Can I come live with you. I am in Vancouver BC
Canada, rush hour(week?) across the bridge near my house almost never stops.
As for stop lights. The local city planners response to anything is another
traffic light.
The idea around here seems to be if all the cars are parked in traffic jams
you won't have as many injuries in auto accidents!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?


>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim L" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 11:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
>
>
> > Would that 300 watts per mile be a representitive number? Or an optimum
> > number. I mean, would the average power consumption of the vehicles that
> > are
> > built and talked about on this list consume about 300 watts per mile?
> >
> > Jim
>
> For me, it is about 300 watts average. If I attack a 2 mile 7 percent
grade
> hill at 60 mph with my 7000 lb EV, then it could be over 1000 watts per
> mile. Coming down that hill and and doing about another 2 mile roll out,
it
> then becomes 0 watts per mile where the motor is still rotating which runs
> the rotating inverter-alternator which is still generating power for all
the
> accessories.
>
> Most of my driving is at 10 to 25 mph on non level streets which I always
> starting a down hill run first and then roller coast up for the rest of
the
> distance and may have only two stops a day. One stop at the destination
and
> one stop at home. No stop signs, no red lights and may drive for days
> without seeing any other cars on the road.
>
> In the winter, I will use twice the energy pushing through a foot of snow,
> running three heating systems, seven fans, three pumps 14 external lights
> and over 50 instrument lights.
>
> Roland
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:29 AM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
> >
> >
> > > Hello Jim,
> > >
> > > You can use the Btu's per gallon method. The average gasoline btu's
is
> > > about 115,000 btu's per gallon. One kilowatt is 3412 btu's.
> > > Engines vary in efficiency all the way down to 25% and a electric
motor
> > may
> > > be as low as 80%. So if all the mechanical efficiency of both rigs
are
> > > equal then:
> > >
> > > 115,000 x 0.25 = 28,750 btus for the engine
> > >
> > > 28,750 / 3412 = 8.426 kilowatts.
> > >
> > > 8.326 kw x 0.80 = 6.66 kw for a electric motor
> > >
> > > 6.66 kw / 746 = 8.9 hp
> > >
> > >
> > > If you take everything at 100% efficiency then:
> > >
> > > 115,000 btu's / 3412 = 33.7 kw
> > >
> > > 33.7 kw / 746 = 45 hp
> > >
> > >
> > > Lets say that you vehicle is getting 300 watts per mile at 60 mph then
a
> > > engine at 100% efficiency would have to get:
> > >
> > > 33.7 kw / 300 = 112 mpg
> > >
> > > Roland
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Jim L" <[email protected]>
> > > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:49 AM
> > > Subject: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
> > >
> > >
> > > > Is there a formula for figuring out an approx energy use for a
vehicle
> > > > based on its mpg performance?
> > > >
> > > > For example, if a car got 25 mpg on average, what would be the
amount
> > > > of
> > > > kw needed to maintain highway speeds?
> > > >
> > > > If there is no easy formula, is there a range of kw usage that would
> > cover
> > > > most typically used vehicles? i.e. 'X' kwatts for a small
aerodynamic
> > > > vehicle to 'Y' kwatts for say a standard 1/2 ton pickup truck?
> > > >
> > > > I realize that this would probably only be estimates.
> > > >
> > > > Any Ideas?
> > > >
> > > > Jim
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > For subscription options, see
> > > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For subscription options, see
> > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

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Registered
Joined
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Hello Jim,

Sometimes about once a week I may have to stop when going to a shopping
center. I can travel over four miles on frontage roads off the main roads
and the roads in front of the shopping center shops which has no stop
lights.

If I have to go to many stores along this route, I just go from parking lot
to parking lot for that distance. It is sure nice to see the battery ampere
usage is only 5 to 30 ampere usage. I am normally driving in 1st gear with
a overall ratio of 19.5:1 which keeps the motor rpm up to about 4000 to 5000
rpm.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim L" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?


> No stop lights? No traffic? Can I come live with you. I am in Vancouver BC
> Canada, rush hour(week?) across the bridge near my house almost never
> stops.
> As for stop lights. The local city planners response to anything is
> another
> traffic light.
> The idea around here seems to be if all the cars are parked in traffic
> jams
> you won't have as many injuries in auto accidents!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 11:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jim L" <[email protected]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 11:23 AM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
> >
> >
> > > Would that 300 watts per mile be a representitive number? Or an
> > > optimum
> > > number. I mean, would the average power consumption of the vehicles
> > > that
> > > are
> > > built and talked about on this list consume about 300 watts per mile?
> > >
> > > Jim
> >
> > For me, it is about 300 watts average. If I attack a 2 mile 7 percent
> grade
> > hill at 60 mph with my 7000 lb EV, then it could be over 1000 watts per
> > mile. Coming down that hill and and doing about another 2 mile roll
> > out,
> it
> > then becomes 0 watts per mile where the motor is still rotating which
> > runs
> > the rotating inverter-alternator which is still generating power for all
> the
> > accessories.
> >
> > Most of my driving is at 10 to 25 mph on non level streets which I
> > always
> > starting a down hill run first and then roller coast up for the rest of
> the
> > distance and may have only two stops a day. One stop at the destination
> and
> > one stop at home. No stop signs, no red lights and may drive for days
> > without seeing any other cars on the road.
> >
> > In the winter, I will use twice the energy pushing through a foot of
> > snow,
> > running three heating systems, seven fans, three pumps 14 external
> > lights
> > and over 50 instrument lights.
> >
> > Roland
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
> > > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:29 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hello Jim,
> > > >
> > > > You can use the Btu's per gallon method. The average gasoline btu's
> is
> > > > about 115,000 btu's per gallon. One kilowatt is 3412 btu's.
> > > > Engines vary in efficiency all the way down to 25% and a electric
> motor
> > > may
> > > > be as low as 80%. So if all the mechanical efficiency of both rigs
> are
> > > > equal then:
> > > >
> > > > 115,000 x 0.25 = 28,750 btus for the engine
> > > >
> > > > 28,750 / 3412 = 8.426 kilowatts.
> > > >
> > > > 8.326 kw x 0.80 = 6.66 kw for a electric motor
> > > >
> > > > 6.66 kw / 746 = 8.9 hp
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > If you take everything at 100% efficiency then:
> > > >
> > > > 115,000 btu's / 3412 = 33.7 kw
> > > >
> > > > 33.7 kw / 746 = 45 hp
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Lets say that you vehicle is getting 300 watts per mile at 60 mph
> > > > then
> a
> > > > engine at 100% efficiency would have to get:
> > > >
> > > > 33.7 kw / 300 = 112 mpg
> > > >
> > > > Roland
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Jim L" <[email protected]>
> > > > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > > > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:49 AM
> > > > Subject: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Is there a formula for figuring out an approx energy use for a
> vehicle
> > > > > based on its mpg performance?
> > > > >
> > > > > For example, if a car got 25 mpg on average, what would be the
> amount
> > > > > of
> > > > > kw needed to maintain highway speeds?
> > > > >
> > > > > If there is no easy formula, is there a range of kw usage that
> > > > > would
> > > cover
> > > > > most typically used vehicles? i.e. 'X' kwatts for a small
> aerodynamic
> > > > > vehicle to 'Y' kwatts for say a standard 1/2 ton pickup truck?
> > > > >
> > > > > I realize that this would probably only be estimates.
> > > > >
> > > > > Any Ideas?
> > > > >
> > > > > Jim
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > For subscription options, see
> > > > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > For subscription options, see
> > > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For subscription options, see
> > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
I have just been running some numbers through my calculator and getting some
disturbing results.
Has anybody tried to calculate how much power would be required if a
significant number of cars were converted to electricity?

If the average car uses 300 watts per mile and it is driven 8000 miles a
year,
300 x 8000 = 2,400,000 watts or 2.4 megawatts/year

I found a US government website that lists the entire US power production
capacity for 2005 as being 1,067,010 Megawatts.

1,067,010 / 2.4 = 423,011 vehicles.

I then found a refernce to the number of registered vehicles in the US for
2001 at 142 MILLION.

If/when the oil supplies dry up, we would have to generate more than 335
times the electricity that we currently do.

Is there anything wrong with my calculations or is this really the power
requirements that we will have to solve.

BTW out of the current power produced, over 70% comes from coal or natural
gas production.

I am beginning to think that we have to start thinking about VERY small
cars(think ATV with a body) or not tell anybody about electric cars and keep
it to ourselves!

I would really like to hear others thoughts on this.

Jim




----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?


>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim L" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 11:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
>
>
> > Would that 300 watts per mile be a representitive number? Or an optimum
> > number. I mean, would the average power consumption of the vehicles that
> > are
> > built and talked about on this list consume about 300 watts per mile?
> >
> > Jim
>
> For me, it is about 300 watts average. If I attack a 2 mile 7 percent
grade
> hill at 60 mph with my 7000 lb EV, then it could be over 1000 watts per
> mile. Coming down that hill and and doing about another 2 mile roll out,
it
> then becomes 0 watts per mile where the motor is still rotating which runs
> the rotating inverter-alternator which is still generating power for all
the
> accessories.
>
> Most of my driving is at 10 to 25 mph on non level streets which I always
> starting a down hill run first and then roller coast up for the rest of
the
> distance and may have only two stops a day. One stop at the destination
and
> one stop at home. No stop signs, no red lights and may drive for days
> without seeing any other cars on the road.
>
> In the winter, I will use twice the energy pushing through a foot of snow,
> running three heating systems, seven fans, three pumps 14 external lights
> and over 50 instrument lights.
>
> Roland
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:29 AM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
> >
> >
> > > Hello Jim,
> > >
> > > You can use the Btu's per gallon method. The average gasoline btu's
is
> > > about 115,000 btu's per gallon. One kilowatt is 3412 btu's.
> > > Engines vary in efficiency all the way down to 25% and a electric
motor
> > may
> > > be as low as 80%. So if all the mechanical efficiency of both rigs
are
> > > equal then:
> > >
> > > 115,000 x 0.25 = 28,750 btus for the engine
> > >
> > > 28,750 / 3412 = 8.426 kilowatts.
> > >
> > > 8.326 kw x 0.80 = 6.66 kw for a electric motor
> > >
> > > 6.66 kw / 746 = 8.9 hp
> > >
> > >
> > > If you take everything at 100% efficiency then:
> > >
> > > 115,000 btu's / 3412 = 33.7 kw
> > >
> > > 33.7 kw / 746 = 45 hp
> > >
> > >
> > > Lets say that you vehicle is getting 300 watts per mile at 60 mph then
a
> > > engine at 100% efficiency would have to get:
> > >
> > > 33.7 kw / 300 = 112 mpg
> > >
> > > Roland
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Jim L" <[email protected]>
> > > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:49 AM
> > > Subject: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
> > >
> > >
> > > > Is there a formula for figuring out an approx energy use for a
vehicle
> > > > based on its mpg performance?
> > > >
> > > > For example, if a car got 25 mpg on average, what would be the
amount
> > > > of
> > > > kw needed to maintain highway speeds?
> > > >
> > > > If there is no easy formula, is there a range of kw usage that would
> > cover
> > > > most typically used vehicles? i.e. 'X' kwatts for a small
aerodynamic
> > > > vehicle to 'Y' kwatts for say a standard 1/2 ton pickup truck?
> > > >
> > > > I realize that this would probably only be estimates.
> > > >
> > > > Any Ideas?
> > > >
> > > > Jim
> > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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Discussion Starter #10
On 12 Oct 2007 at 12:21, two EVDL members wrote:

> > Would that 300 watts per mile be a representitive number?
>
> For me, it is about 300 watts average.

Excuse me for pointing this out, but these statemens make no sense.

It's like saying that an ICE uses 250 horsepower per mile. Perhaps you mean
Watt-HOURS per mile. If so, please use the correct units.

http://www.evsource.com/articles/mind_your_units.php

Thanks to Edward Ang for posting this helpful page. I heartily recommend it
to all EVDL members.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Discussion Starter #11
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Jim L
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:59 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
>
> I have just been running some numbers through my calculator and getting
> some
> disturbing results.
> Has anybody tried to calculate how much power would be required if a
> significant number of cars were converted to electricity?
>
> If the average car uses 300 watts per mile and it is driven 8000 miles a
> year,
> 300 x 8000 = 2,400,000 watts or 2.4 megawatts/year
>
> I found a US government website that lists the entire US power
> production
> capacity for 2005 as being 1,067,010 Megawatts.
>
> 1,067,010 / 2.4 = 423,011 vehicles.
>
> I then found a refernce to the number of registered vehicles in the US
> for
> 2001 at 142 MILLION.
>
> If/when the oil supplies dry up, we would have to generate more than 335
> times the electricity that we currently do.
>
> Is there anything wrong with my calculations or is this really the power
> requirements that we will have to solve.
>
> BTW out of the current power produced, over 70% comes from coal or
> natural
> gas production.
>
> I am beginning to think that we have to start thinking about VERY small
> cars(think ATV with a body) or not tell anybody about electric cars and
> keep
> it to ourselves!
>
> I would really like to hear others thoughts on this.
>
> Jim
>

So, I could power my car for the entire year on about the same amount of electricity that my home uses in a month.


--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY

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Discussion Starter #12
If the vehicle traveled 1 mile in an hour and used 300 watts for that whole
hour it would consume 300 watt hours. Travelling at 60 miles per
hour(ignoring air friction) it still consumes 300 watts per mile but crams
60 of them into an hour resulting in 18000 watts consumed in an hour.
adding the /hour to the equation just tells you how long you sustained the
power consumption.


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?


> On 12 Oct 2007 at 12:21, two EVDL members wrote:
>
> > > Would that 300 watts per mile be a representitive number?
> >
> > For me, it is about 300 watts average.
>
> Excuse me for pointing this out, but these statemens make no sense.
>
> It's like saying that an ICE uses 250 horsepower per mile. Perhaps you
mean
> Watt-HOURS per mile. If so, please use the correct units.
>
> http://www.evsource.com/articles/mind_your_units.php
>
> Thanks to Edward Ang for posting this helpful page. I heartily recommend
it
> to all EVDL members.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Also how much electricity is used in the conversion of oil to gasoline that
would no longer need to be done?


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Tim Humphrey
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:30 PM
To: EV
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?




>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Jim L
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:59 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
>
> I have just been running some numbers through my calculator and getting
> some
> disturbing results.
> Has anybody tried to calculate how much power would be required if a
> significant number of cars were converted to electricity?
>
> If the average car uses 300 watts per mile and it is driven 8000 miles a
> year,
> 300 x 8000 = 2,400,000 watts or 2.4 megawatts/year
>
> I found a US government website that lists the entire US power
> production
> capacity for 2005 as being 1,067,010 Megawatts.
>
> 1,067,010 / 2.4 = 423,011 vehicles.
>
> I then found a refernce to the number of registered vehicles in the US
> for
> 2001 at 142 MILLION.
>
> If/when the oil supplies dry up, we would have to generate more than 335
> times the electricity that we currently do.
>
> Is there anything wrong with my calculations or is this really the power
> requirements that we will have to solve.
>
> BTW out of the current power produced, over 70% comes from coal or
> natural
> gas production.
>
> I am beginning to think that we have to start thinking about VERY small
> cars(think ATV with a body) or not tell anybody about electric cars and
> keep
> it to ourselves!
>
> I would really like to hear others thoughts on this.
>
> Jim
>

So, I could power my car for the entire year on about the same amount of
electricity that my home uses in a month.


--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY

_______________________________________________
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Discussion Starter #14
Hi Jim,

Are you confusing energy and power? Watt-hours and
watts?

Jeff M



--- Jim L <[email protected]> wrote:

> I have just been running some numbers through my
> calculator and getting some
> disturbing results.
> Has anybody tried to calculate how much power would
> be required if a
> significant number of cars were converted to
> electricity?
>
> If the average car uses 300 watts per mile and it is
> driven 8000 miles a
> year,
> 300 x 8000 = 2,400,000 watts or 2.4 megawatts/year
>
> I found a US government website that lists the
> entire US power production
> capacity for 2005 as being 1,067,010 Megawatts.
>
> 1,067,010 / 2.4 = 423,011 vehicles.
>
> I then found a refernce to the number of registered
> vehicles in the US for
> 2001 at 142 MILLION.
>
> If/when the oil supplies dry up, we would have to
> generate more than 335
> times the electricity that we currently do.
>
> Is there anything wrong with my calculations or is
> this really the power
> requirements that we will have to solve.
>
> BTW out of the current power produced, over 70%
> comes from coal or natural
> gas production.
>
> I am beginning to think that we have to start
> thinking about VERY small
> cars(think ATV with a body) or not tell anybody
> about electric cars and keep
> it to ourselves!
>
> I would really like to hear others thoughts on this.
>
> Jim
>




____________________________________________________________________________________
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/

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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
I am sure that the savings from that would be insignificant when you are
talking about how much power is required. Making eletric motors and wire and
batteries takes electricity too remember.


----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?


> Also how much electricity is used in the conversion of oil to gasoline
that
> would no longer need to be done?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf
> Of Tim Humphrey
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:30 PM
> To: EV
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
>
>
>
>
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> > Behalf Of Jim L
> > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:59 PM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
> >
> > I have just been running some numbers through my calculator and getting
> > some
> > disturbing results.
> > Has anybody tried to calculate how much power would be required if a
> > significant number of cars were converted to electricity?
> >
> > If the average car uses 300 watts per mile and it is driven 8000 miles a
> > year,
> > 300 x 8000 = 2,400,000 watts or 2.4 megawatts/year
> >
> > I found a US government website that lists the entire US power
> > production
> > capacity for 2005 as being 1,067,010 Megawatts.
> >
> > 1,067,010 / 2.4 = 423,011 vehicles.
> >
> > I then found a refernce to the number of registered vehicles in the US
> > for
> > 2001 at 142 MILLION.
> >
> > If/when the oil supplies dry up, we would have to generate more than 335
> > times the electricity that we currently do.
> >
> > Is there anything wrong with my calculations or is this really the power
> > requirements that we will have to solve.
> >
> > BTW out of the current power produced, over 70% comes from coal or
> > natural
> > gas production.
> >
> > I am beginning to think that we have to start thinking about VERY small
> > cars(think ATV with a body) or not tell anybody about electric cars and
> > keep
> > it to ourselves!
> >
> > I would really like to hear others thoughts on this.
> >
> > Jim
> >
>
> So, I could power my car for the entire year on about the same amount of
> electricity that my home uses in a month.
>
>
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> I-5, Blossvale NY
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter #16
Jim L writes:
>
> If/when the oil supplies dry up, we would have to generate more than 335
> times the electricity that we currently do.
>
> Is there anything wrong with my calculations or is this really the power
> requirements that we will have to solve.

Yes. You're not counting the electricity used to make gasoline, which
would be freed up for other purposes if not used for making gasoline.

If I remember correctly, Terry Tamminen, in his book "Lives Per Gallon",
calculated about 8kwh of electricity to make one gallon of gasoline.

As it happens, that's about how much electricity my Geo Prizm uses per
day for a 35 mile commute, which is about the range that a gallon of gas
would give me. So my vehicle's electricity use causes no net burden on
the electrical grid.

Ralph

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Discussion Starter #17
Sorry to be argumentative but how does that compare with the power to make
all the stuff that goes into an ice car.
I think that it should be at least break even or lean to the electric side
as having to use less energy.

Not that this really matters to the US electric grid as both of the electric
motors and the gas engine would most likely not be made in the US. :)




-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Jim L
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:55 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?

I am sure that the savings from that would be insignificant when you are
talking about how much power is required. Making eletric motors and wire and
batteries takes electricity too remember.


----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?


> Also how much electricity is used in the conversion of oil to gasoline
that
> would no longer need to be done?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf
> Of Tim Humphrey
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:30 PM
> To: EV
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
>
>
>
>
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> > Behalf Of Jim L
> > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:59 PM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
> >
> > I have just been running some numbers through my calculator and getting
> > some
> > disturbing results.
> > Has anybody tried to calculate how much power would be required if a
> > significant number of cars were converted to electricity?
> >
> > If the average car uses 300 watts per mile and it is driven 8000 miles a
> > year,
> > 300 x 8000 = 2,400,000 watts or 2.4 megawatts/year
> >
> > I found a US government website that lists the entire US power
> > production
> > capacity for 2005 as being 1,067,010 Megawatts.
> >
> > 1,067,010 / 2.4 = 423,011 vehicles.
> >
> > I then found a refernce to the number of registered vehicles in the US
> > for
> > 2001 at 142 MILLION.
> >
> > If/when the oil supplies dry up, we would have to generate more than 335
> > times the electricity that we currently do.
> >
> > Is there anything wrong with my calculations or is this really the power
> > requirements that we will have to solve.
> >
> > BTW out of the current power produced, over 70% comes from coal or
> > natural
> > gas production.
> >
> > I am beginning to think that we have to start thinking about VERY small
> > cars(think ATV with a body) or not tell anybody about electric cars and
> > keep
> > it to ourselves!
> >
> > I would really like to hear others thoughts on this.
> >
> > Jim
> >
>
> So, I could power my car for the entire year on about the same amount of
> electricity that my home uses in a month.
>
>
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> I-5, Blossvale NY
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter #18
No, I want you to put in your two cents worth. as well as everyone else. I
think I have already seen at least one error in my thinking thanks to this
feedback.
The 1 million megawatts is a terawatt. or a trillion watts. my original
calculation was missing three zeroes. (These numbers are so large that its
hard to keep track of that many zeroes!)
That puts production at about 8760 billion kw/h.

Using Ralphs power consumption numbers of .22 kw/h per mile multiplied by
8000 mile pers year=1760 kw/h per year per vehicle. Assuming all were as
efficient.
142 million vehicles x 1760 kw/h =249.92 billion kw/h per year required.

OK, That looks a little more do-able.


----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?


> Sorry to be argumentative but how does that compare with the power to make
> all the stuff that goes into an ice car.
> I think that it should be at least break even or lean to the electric side
> as having to use less energy.
>
> Not that this really matters to the US electric grid as both of the
electric
> motors and the gas engine would most likely not be made in the US. :)
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf
> Of Jim L
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:55 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
>
> I am sure that the savings from that would be insignificant when you are
> talking about how much power is required. Making eletric motors and wire
and
> batteries takes electricity too remember.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[email protected]>
> To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 12:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
>
>
> > Also how much electricity is used in the conversion of oil to gasoline
> that
> > would no longer need to be done?
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf
> > Of Tim Humphrey
> > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:30 PM
> > To: EV
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> > > Behalf Of Jim L
> > > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:59 PM
> > > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > > Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
> > >
> > > I have just been running some numbers through my calculator and
getting
> > > some
> > > disturbing results.
> > > Has anybody tried to calculate how much power would be required if a
> > > significant number of cars were converted to electricity?
> > >
> > > If the average car uses 300 watts per mile and it is driven 8000 miles
a
> > > year,
> > > 300 x 8000 = 2,400,000 watts or 2.4 megawatts/year
> > >
> > > I found a US government website that lists the entire US power
> > > production
> > > capacity for 2005 as being 1,067,010 Megawatts.
> > >
> > > 1,067,010 / 2.4 = 423,011 vehicles.
> > >
> > > I then found a refernce to the number of registered vehicles in the US
> > > for
> > > 2001 at 142 MILLION.
> > >
> > > If/when the oil supplies dry up, we would have to generate more than
335
> > > times the electricity that we currently do.
> > >
> > > Is there anything wrong with my calculations or is this really the
power
> > > requirements that we will have to solve.
> > >
> > > BTW out of the current power produced, over 70% comes from coal or
> > > natural
> > > gas production.
> > >
> > > I am beginning to think that we have to start thinking about VERY
small
> > > cars(think ATV with a body) or not tell anybody about electric cars
and
> > > keep
> > > it to ourselves!
> > >
> > > I would really like to hear others thoughts on this.
> > >
> > > Jim
> > >
> >
> > So, I could power my car for the entire year on about the same amount of
> > electricity that my home uses in a month.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Stay Charged!
> > Hump
> > I-5, Blossvale NY
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter #20
Jim L wrote:
> No, I want you to put in your two cents worth. as well as everyone else.
-----------------OKAY, I'll bite!

My 4 day a week school commute uses 12 KWhours. My Solar system
delivers about 15 KWH per day. The excess solar electricity goes into
my house.

John in Sylmar, CA
"Burning oil is Treason", my doctor says.

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