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Discussion Starter #1
I'm seriously considering a switch from FLA to a Li battery pack. Can
anyone recommend a good supplier in the Pacific NW (Oregon) area?

My current 114V pack of T-125 batteries is on its way out, and with the
replacements @ $145/ea ($2,755) I'm hoping I can find a Li pack that lasts
at least 5 years for maybe 2x the price. I'm hesitant to purchase another
lead pack as a bridge near me will be closing for a while, adding 10 miles
to my standard 15 mile trip (which I can barely make now). Even with a new
pack I could only get 25-28 miles (in the summer) before voltage sag
became an issue.

114V, 100AHr equates to 36 cells.
CALB = $4860
TS = $4500

Add $500 for a mini-BMS system to prevent overcharge/discharge and the
total is $5360. The only big question is: Will they last 4-5 years???

-Adrian


RUMORS I've heard:

- TS strapping hardware is better built than that of CALB
- CALB cells are a bit stronger (electrically/chemically) than TS
- The "other" brand of large format Li cells is junk
- Kokam and other name brand cells are $$$$ or impossible to get
- Watering floodies sucks (OK, that's not a rumor)
- All battery salesmen are out to cheat you :)

The MATH:

1987 VW Cabriolet @ 114V. 3,600 pound curb weight. Zilla 1K-LV controller.
A typical 14 mile trip uses ~4KWHr (measured with a Kill-A-Watt meter).
Typical recharge time is ~2.5 hours with a PFC-20. Timeout after reaching
charge voltage is 30 mins, so approx. 2 hours @ 20A for the bulk charge.

4,000 WHr/14miles = 285 WHr/mile
20A * 2Hr * 114V = 4560WHr 2560WHr/14miles = 326 WHr/mile

Call it 300WHr/mile for typical driving - 30-40MPH, hilly roads, final
drive home is 45 seconds of 200A from the batteries to climb a moderate
hill.

To make 24 miles (standard 14 plus the extra 10 while the bridge is
closed) I'd need 300WHr/mile * 24miles or 7.2KWHr of energy. Limiting to
70% DOD makes that 10.3KWHr, or 90AHr cells @ 114V. Alternatively that
would be 71 AHr @ 144V.

My car currently cruises at 50-120A depending on speed and grade, and
takes 150-200A for "normal" acceleration. I have one short hill that
requires 250A to maintain 15MPH. I almost never hit 300A unless I know I'm
doing a short 6 mile run for groceries.

Using this data, 100AHr cells should function nicely. Typical 0.5C to 1.3C
discharge, with < 1 minute bursts of 2C. For 114V I'd use 36 cells @ 3.2V
nominal. I could go to 144V (46 cells) with a change of DC/DC and heater
relays. Absolute limit would be ~200V/3.6V = 55 cells (176V) based on the
"nominal" 156V rating of the Zilla-LV.

A 114V pack would drop my curb weight by 980 pounds to ~2617 pounds (2687
pounds @ 144V)! I assume that will have a very positive effect on
acceleration and current draw going up hills... Is the era of Li finally
here?

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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
Hello Adrian,

My next battery pack will be a Li-Ion module pack that is assembly in either
single, 4 cell or 8 cell with BMS from ManizanitaMicro.com. Rich balances,
assemble and test each unit.

The PFC-50B charger I bought from him 8 years ago which I have no problems
with charging and balancing a T-145 pack that lasted 8 years in my EV and is
still going strong in a 2nd EV.

One time I broke the voltage adjustment pot stem and he sent me a new
replacement and adjustment tool in two days for free.

When you upload the Manizanita site, just click Lithium.

Roland



----- Original Message -----
From: "Adrian DeLeon" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 10:30 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Li cell supplier wanted!


> I'm seriously considering a switch from FLA to a Li battery pack. Can
> anyone recommend a good supplier in the Pacific NW (Oregon) area?
>
> My current 114V pack of T-125 batteries is on its way out, and with the
> replacements @ $145/ea ($2,755) I'm hoping I can find a Li pack that lasts
> at least 5 years for maybe 2x the price. I'm hesitant to purchase another
> lead pack as a bridge near me will be closing for a while, adding 10 miles
> to my standard 15 mile trip (which I can barely make now). Even with a new
> pack I could only get 25-28 miles (in the summer) before voltage sag
> became an issue.
>
> 114V, 100AHr equates to 36 cells.
> CALB = $4860
> TS = $4500
>
> Add $500 for a mini-BMS system to prevent overcharge/discharge and the
> total is $5360. The only big question is: Will they last 4-5 years???
>
> -Adrian
>
>
> RUMORS I've heard:
>
> - TS strapping hardware is better built than that of CALB
> - CALB cells are a bit stronger (electrically/chemically) than TS
> - The "other" brand of large format Li cells is junk
> - Kokam and other name brand cells are $$$$ or impossible to get
> - Watering floodies sucks (OK, that's not a rumor)
> - All battery salesmen are out to cheat you :)
>
> The MATH:
>
> 1987 VW Cabriolet @ 114V. 3,600 pound curb weight. Zilla 1K-LV controller.
> A typical 14 mile trip uses ~4KWHr (measured with a Kill-A-Watt meter).
> Typical recharge time is ~2.5 hours with a PFC-20. Timeout after reaching
> charge voltage is 30 mins, so approx. 2 hours @ 20A for the bulk charge.
>
> 4,000 WHr/14miles = 285 WHr/mile
> 20A * 2Hr * 114V = 4560WHr 2560WHr/14miles = 326 WHr/mile
>
> Call it 300WHr/mile for typical driving - 30-40MPH, hilly roads, final
> drive home is 45 seconds of 200A from the batteries to climb a moderate
> hill.
>
> To make 24 miles (standard 14 plus the extra 10 while the bridge is
> closed) I'd need 300WHr/mile * 24miles or 7.2KWHr of energy. Limiting to
> 70% DOD makes that 10.3KWHr, or 90AHr cells @ 114V. Alternatively that
> would be 71 AHr @ 144V.
>
> My car currently cruises at 50-120A depending on speed and grade, and
> takes 150-200A for "normal" acceleration. I have one short hill that
> requires 250A to maintain 15MPH. I almost never hit 300A unless I know I'm
> doing a short 6 mile run for groceries.
>
> Using this data, 100AHr cells should function nicely. Typical 0.5C to 1.3C
> discharge, with < 1 minute bursts of 2C. For 114V I'd use 36 cells @ 3.2V
> nominal. I could go to 144V (46 cells) with a change of DC/DC and heater
> relays. Absolute limit would be ~200V/3.6V = 55 cells (176V) based on the
> "nominal" 156V rating of the Zilla-LV.
>
> A 114V pack would drop my curb weight by 980 pounds to ~2617 pounds (2687
> pounds @ 144V)! I assume that will have a very positive effect on
> acceleration and current draw going up hills... Is the era of Li finally
> here?
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter #3
Hi Adrian,

>From recent personal experience I can recommend two sources for Li cells. Dave Kois has a new company importing Thundersky, http://www.currentevtech.com/. Dave is a 100% ethical guy and super-knowledgeable. I dealt with him at his prior company where I bought my cells. He's in Olympia, so you can avoid freight charges by picking them up in person. I think he has the lowest delivered prices on the west coast. Another good source is Evolve Electrics, http://www.evolveelectrics.com/ in Boulder. I bought some replacement cells from them and they delivered right away for a decent price. Their customer service is also very good.

Good luck!
Richard

Richard Hamje
Electric 73 VW Fastback
Portland, OR
[email protected]
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Discussion Starter #4
Adrian,

I too would suggest Dave Kois at CurrentEV tech. I delt with him for
the pack for my Gizmo. Just order them then drive up and pick them up.

As for Wh/mi numbers. With flooded 6V batteries I could go 4mi/kWh out
of the wall (measured with a Kill-A-Watt meter) and when I switched to
LiFePO4 TS cells I am now averaging 6mi/kWh out of the wall. This
translates to about 135Wh/mi typical as measured with a CycleAnalyst.
I did a run of 58 miles with all but 15 of those miles at full
throttle (~50mph) and used 152Wh/mi. Since your controller can go
higher in voltage I'd recommend getting more cells. Your current draw
will be lower for the same acceleration, your hill climbing will
improve significantly, and your top speed will be higher. Also, you
will have a little more energy in the pack so as the pack ages it will
take longer before the capacity drops to your minimum needed level. I
know my car is small but I sure like going 37mph up my hill with a
posted speed of 35 rather than the former 23mph with lead acid. I went
from a 48V flooded pack to a 64V 200AH LFP pack.

Now, before you go with a Li pack you might want to consider all of
the problems with using them. Here is a list I came up with about the
problems with using LiFePO4 batteries:
- I don't think about how long my trip is so I use up more energy.
- I have so much extra energy available I don't drive as efficiently as I could.
- I don't have to plug in as often so I might get out of the habit of
plugging in. Furthermore, I won't wear out as many wall plugs so I'm
not supporting my local electrical supply house.
- I don't need distilled water any more so I'm not supporting the
local grocery store like I used to.
- I need to install a blower on my motor to cool it since it is now
easy to go beyond the 1-hour rating of the motor.
- I don't use as much windex now that I don't have lead acid battery
tops to clean. The grocery store loses again.
- I don't go through as many paper towels so...the grocery store loses
yet again.
- I don't put baking soda in the bottom of the battery box any
more...the grocery store loses again!
- The batteries are much more efficient than lead acid so I don't
spend as much per mile on electricity. The electric utility doesn't
make as much.
- If I forget to charge I miss out on worrying how much sulfating has
been going on in the batteries.
- If I go on a really long drive my car might not be charged up until
3 am. That only gives me a 4 hour buffer before I leave for work! That
is cutting it close!
- I don't have acid corroding my battery box so I won't have to
buy/build another one so the metal shop looses out on a sale.


--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328

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| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Discussion Starter #5
Adrian,
I have been buying Sky Energy batteries from Mike at Lithium Storage. He has
them in stock, replies and ships quickly. So far a good experience and plan
to continue.

Comment would be that he is about 5% higher than others but he has a
documented 2 year replacement warranty. I like that a lot.

Sincerely,
Mark Grasser



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Adrian DeLeon
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 1:31 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] Li cell supplier wanted!

I'm seriously considering a switch from FLA to a Li battery pack. Can
anyone recommend a good supplier in the Pacific NW (Oregon) area?

My current 114V pack of T-125 batteries is on its way out, and with the
replacements @ $145/ea ($2,755) I'm hoping I can find a Li pack that lasts
at least 5 years for maybe 2x the price. I'm hesitant to purchase another
lead pack as a bridge near me will be closing for a while, adding 10 miles
to my standard 15 mile trip (which I can barely make now). Even with a new
pack I could only get 25-28 miles (in the summer) before voltage sag
became an issue.

114V, 100AHr equates to 36 cells.
CALB = $4860
TS = $4500

Add $500 for a mini-BMS system to prevent overcharge/discharge and the
total is $5360. The only big question is: Will they last 4-5 years???

-Adrian


RUMORS I've heard:

- TS strapping hardware is better built than that of CALB
- CALB cells are a bit stronger (electrically/chemically) than TS
- The "other" brand of large format Li cells is junk
- Kokam and other name brand cells are $$$$ or impossible to get
- Watering floodies sucks (OK, that's not a rumor)
- All battery salesmen are out to cheat you :)

The MATH:

1987 VW Cabriolet @ 114V. 3,600 pound curb weight. Zilla 1K-LV controller.
A typical 14 mile trip uses ~4KWHr (measured with a Kill-A-Watt meter).
Typical recharge time is ~2.5 hours with a PFC-20. Timeout after reaching
charge voltage is 30 mins, so approx. 2 hours @ 20A for the bulk charge.

4,000 WHr/14miles = 285 WHr/mile
20A * 2Hr * 114V = 4560WHr 2560WHr/14miles = 326 WHr/mile

Call it 300WHr/mile for typical driving - 30-40MPH, hilly roads, final
drive home is 45 seconds of 200A from the batteries to climb a moderate
hill.

To make 24 miles (standard 14 plus the extra 10 while the bridge is
closed) I'd need 300WHr/mile * 24miles or 7.2KWHr of energy. Limiting to
70% DOD makes that 10.3KWHr, or 90AHr cells @ 114V. Alternatively that
would be 71 AHr @ 144V.

My car currently cruises at 50-120A depending on speed and grade, and
takes 150-200A for "normal" acceleration. I have one short hill that
requires 250A to maintain 15MPH. I almost never hit 300A unless I know I'm
doing a short 6 mile run for groceries.

Using this data, 100AHr cells should function nicely. Typical 0.5C to 1.3C
discharge, with < 1 minute bursts of 2C. For 114V I'd use 36 cells @ 3.2V
nominal. I could go to 144V (46 cells) with a change of DC/DC and heater
relays. Absolute limit would be ~200V/3.6V = 55 cells (176V) based on the
"nominal" 156V rating of the Zilla-LV.

A 114V pack would drop my curb weight by 980 pounds to ~2617 pounds (2687
pounds @ 144V)! I assume that will have a very positive effect on
acceleration and current draw going up hills... Is the era of Li finally
here?

_______________________________________________
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| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Discussion Starter #6
Adrian,

In case you don't subscribe to the TS group I thought I post Dave Kois
email here. He posted it yeserday (11-4-10).

=============================
"I have a large shipment (180,000ah) on the water now. Most of that
order is unsold and for stock. I expect it to arrive on or about the
14th of this month.

Best Regards

Dave Kois
Current EV Tech, LLC
http://www.currentevtech.com
253-988-5020
Skype dkoisii

==================================


--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328

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