[EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?

EVDL List · Dec 8, 2010

I am short on cash, and have been happy with my 15 mile range, and if I use
60ah lithiums I can afford the switch and still have 144 volts. My worry is
that pulling 150 amps for 5 minutes on my commute every morning and evening,
and 200 amps for 10 seconds every morning to pull out onto the road, would
kill the 60ah batteries.
If I step up to 100ah batteries, 120 volts would still cost 25% more than
the 60ah setup, but then my typical day would be under the 3C max-discharge
that Thundersky specs list.
A lot of people have bragged about how much abuse Lithiums can stand, but am
I just gambling my hard-earned money by under-sizing?

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EVDL List · Dec 9, 2010

"but am I just gambling my hard-earned money by under-sizing?" I think so if
you use prismatic cells like TS or CALB. JRP3 has 100Ah cells and has
pulled about 5C from them several times, maybe he will give a counter
opinion. Problem is neither of us can give you lifetime data. You of
course will loose some acceleration with 120V too.
--
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EVDL List · Dec 9, 2010

If tomw is contemplating switching from lead to lithium (his post does
not make it clear) then I would have thought whatever loss of
acceleration he gets from dropping the system voltage from 144 to 120V
would more than be compensated for by the loss of around 400lbs of
lead. But Tomw hasn't told us what size his existing batteries are,
so I've had to make some fundamental guesses here. It would save a
lot of time if posters would include their evalbum reference or other
basic data if relevant to their post.

It is the top speed that will suffer most due to the drop in system
volts.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk

tomw wrote:

>
> "but am I just gambling my hard-earned money by under-sizing?" I
> think so if
> you use prismatic cells like TS or CALB. JRP3 has 100Ah cells and has
> pulled about 5C from them several times, maybe he will give a counter
> opinion. Problem is neither of us can give you lifetime data. You of
> course will loose some acceleration with 120V too.
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Lithium-60ah-144volts-vs-100ah-120-volts-tp3079333p3079466.html

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EVDL List · Dec 9, 2010

On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 10:38:22AM +0000, Martin WINLOW wrote:
> If tomw is contemplating switching from lead to lithium (his post does
> not make it clear) then I would have thought whatever loss of
> acceleration he gets from dropping the system voltage from 144 to 120V
> would more than be compensated for by the loss of around 400lbs of
> lead. But Tomw hasn't told us what size his existing batteries are,
> so I've had to make some fundamental guesses here. It would save a
> lot of time if posters would include their evalbum reference or other
> basic data if relevant to their post.

Kyle Bonds was the OP. This is probably his EVAlbum page:
http://www.evalbum.com/1783

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 88 days 3 hours 20 minutes

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EVDL List · Dec 9, 2010

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EVDL List · Dec 9, 2010

Yes I'm running 100Ah SE/CALB cells and have hit 5.5C for a few seconds and
normally run between 1-2C. No noticeable effects so far but it's only been
less than a year and maybe 6K miles so far. Also the SE/CALB cells claim
higher discharge tolerance than TS, but who knows.

tomw wrote:
>
> "but am I just gambling my hard-earned money by under-sizing?" I think so
> if you use prismatic cells like TS or CALB. JRP3 has 100Ah cells and has
> pulled about 5C from them several times, maybe he will give a counter
> opinion. Problem is neither of us can give you lifetime data. You of
> course will loose some acceleration with 120V too.
>

--
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EVDL List · Dec 9, 2010

Lowering the pack voltage will lower the maximum RPM of the motor.......I
guess if you have a transmission that is not a big problem.......me

AMPhibian <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> Yes I'm running 100Ah SE/CALB cells and have hit 5.5C for a few seconds and
> normally run between 1-2C. No noticeable effects so far but it's only been
> less than a year and maybe 6K miles so far. Also the SE/CALB cells claim
> higher discharge tolerance than TS, but who knows.
>
>
> tomw wrote:
> >
> > "but am I just gambling my hard-earned money by under-sizing?" I think
> so
> > if you use prismatic cells like TS or CALB. JRP3 has 100Ah cells and has
> > pulled about 5C from them several times, maybe he will give a counter
> > opinion. Problem is neither of us can give you lifetime data. You of
> > course will loose some acceleration with 120V too.
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Lithium-60ah-144volts-vs-100ah-120-volts-tp3079333p3080087.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
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EVDL List · Dec 10, 2010

Evan;

Curious to your comment about not going above 1C at cruising speed.
Specs for Thundersky show constant current at 3C and CALB shows 4C.

Thanks;
Dennis =

Elsberry, MO =

http://www.evalbum.com/1366 =

-----Original Message-----
From: Evan Tuer [mailto:[email protected]] =

Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 6:27 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?

On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 11:32 PM, Kyle Bonds <[email protected]> wrot=
e:
>
> I am short on cash, and have been happy with my 15 mile range, and if =

> I use 60ah lithiums I can afford the switch and still have 144 volts.
> My worry is that pulling 150 amps for 5 minutes on my commute every =

> morning and evening, and 200 amps for 10 seconds every morning to pull =

> out onto the road, would kill the 60ah batteries.

I would say that's pushing them far too hard. You shouldn't go above 1C at=
cruising speed.
And in cold weather the voltage sag will make it undriveable, unless you're=
planning to heat them as well.

If you're happy with 15 miles range and don't have much money, stick with l=
ead, or you'll just be buying yourself a problem.

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EVDL List · Dec 10, 2010

I don't doubt that 3C is reasonably safe to draw for extended periods of
time but there are lies, damned lies, and things that marketing people put
in brochures. It is, of course, always better to draw as small a fraction of
the battery power as possible for as long as possible. That's after all how
you get better range. Also, being easier on the batteries makes them last
longer. Lithium batteries are expensive enough that you should treat them
like the Queen of England.

I've got an 80AH pack and on acceleration the system can draw about 150A
(this is an AC 340V system) and while cruising it's not usually above
60-80A. So in my case I'm staying at the 1C cruising level which is good.
This system can do approximately 100 miles to a charge.

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Pestka, Dennis J <

[email protected]> wrote:

> Evan;
>
> Curious to your comment about not going above 1C at cruising speed.
> Specs for Thundersky show constant current at 3C and CALB shows 4C.
>
> Thanks;
> Dennis
> Elsberry, MO
> http://www.evalbum.com/1366
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Evan Tuer [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 6:27 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?
>
> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 11:32 PM, Kyle Bonds <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> > I am short on cash, and have been happy with my 15 mile range, and if
> > I use 60ah lithiums I can afford the switch and still have 144 volts.
> > My worry is that pulling 150 amps for 5 minutes on my commute every
> > morning and evening, and 200 amps for 10 seconds every morning to pull
> > out onto the road, would kill the 60ah batteries.
>
> I would say that's pushing them far too hard. You shouldn't go above 1C at
> cruising speed.
> And in cold weather the voltage sag will make it undriveable, unless you're
> planning to heat them as well.
>
> If you're happy with 15 miles range and don't have much money, stick with
> lead, or you'll just be buying yourself a problem.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
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EVDL List · Dec 10, 2010

Collin Kidder wrote:

> I've got an 80AH pack and on acceleration the system can draw about 150A
> (this is an AC 340V system) and while cruising it's not usually above
> 60-80A. So in my case I'm staying at the 1C cruising level which is good.
> This system can do approximately 100 miles to a charge.

I was about to point out that 100 mile range while drawing ~80 amps
would imply 100 mph, but decided that your 100 mile range must be with
significantly lower draw. 1/3 C (27 amps), 3 hours at 33 mph?

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 89 days 6 hours 05 minutes

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EVDL List · Dec 10, 2010

My bench test show that they get fairly warm at 3C discharge. That is
from full charge to the knee. The core temp of the cell went from 72
deg F to 131 deg F. This was for a 100 Ah cell similar to TS.

Dennis J wrote:

> Evan;
>
> Curious to your comment about not going above 1C at cruising speed.
> Specs for Thundersky show constant current at 3C and CALB shows 4C.
>
> Thanks;
> Dennis
> Elsberry, MO
> http://www.evalbum.com/1366
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Evan Tuer [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 6:27 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?
>
> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 11:32 PM, Kyle Bonds
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> I am short on cash, and have been happy with my 15 mile range, and if
>> I use 60ah lithiums I can afford the switch and still have 144 volts.
>> My worry is that pulling 150 amps for 5 minutes on my commute every
>> morning and evening, and 200 amps for 10 seconds every morning to
>> pull
>> out onto the road, would kill the 60ah batteries.
>
> I would say that's pushing them far too hard. You shouldn't go
> above 1C at cruising speed.
> And in cold weather the voltage sag will make it undriveable, unless
> you're planning to heat them as well.
>
> If you're happy with 15 miles range and don't have much money, stick
> with lead, or you'll just be buying yourself a problem.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Roger Heuckeroth
Advanced Carbon Systems
304 Blue Mountain Road
Saugerties, NY 12477
www.advancedcarbonsystems.com
Phone: 845-247-9089
Toll Free: 866-834-5674
Fax: 845-247-0441
[email protected]

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EVDL List · Dec 10, 2010

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 12:54 PM, Pestka, Dennis J

<[email protected]> wrote:
> Evan;
>
> Curious to your comment about not going above 1C at cruising speed.
> Specs for Thundersky show constant current at 3C and CALB shows 4C.

Imagine you need to pull 3C to maintain a safe speed on the highway.
Now imagine your cells are several years old, it's a cold winters
evening at -10 degrees C, and you're down to 40% SOC. Can they still
do it? I rather doubt it.

Have they even lasted this long? Perhaps use at maximum ratings in
high summer temperatures has already cooked them!

I think if you want to use cells near the max ratings then you've got
to start messing about with thermal management, and/or limiting your
range and speed going up hills in some conditions.. I switched to
Lithium to get away from all that!

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EVDL List · Dec 10, 2010

Dennis,

>Specs for Thundersky show constant current at 3C and CALB shows 4C.

No no, those are for 30 seconds only.
Their continuous rating is 0.3C

they will do 1C continuous.

at 1.4C continuous with 4C peaks, my 40Ah cells lasted 500 cycles to 60% of
original capacity.

keep the continuous discharge rate down.

it sorta scales exponentially

Matt

----- Original Message -----
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 8:54 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?

Evan;

Curious to your comment about not going above 1C at cruising speed.
Specs for Thundersky show constant current at 3C and CALB shows 4C.

Thanks;
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
http://www.evalbum.com/1366

-----Original Message-----
From: Evan Tuer [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 6:27 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?

On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 11:32 PM, Kyle Bonds <[email protected]>

wrote:
>
> I am short on cash, and have been happy with my 15 mile range, and if
> I use 60ah lithiums I can afford the switch and still have 144 volts.
> My worry is that pulling 150 amps for 5 minutes on my commute every
> morning and evening, and 200 amps for 10 seconds every morning to pull
> out onto the road, would kill the 60ah batteries.

I would say that's pushing them far too hard. You shouldn't go above 1C at
cruising speed.
And in cold weather the voltage sag will make it undriveable, unless you're
planning to heat them as well.

If you're happy with 15 miles range and don't have much money, stick with
lead, or you'll just be buying yourself a problem.

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-----
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3306 - Release Date: 12/09/10

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EVDL List · Dec 10, 2010

OUCH!!
More detail please.
1. Thundersky or Sky energy?
2. Were they early ones or new and improved?
3. How far were you discharging them? 100%, 80%?
4. Same question a different way. 60% of what?

Sincerely,
Mark Grasser

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of matt lacey
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 2:26 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?

Dennis,

>Specs for Thundersky show constant current at 3C and CALB shows 4C.

No no, those are for 30 seconds only.
Their continuous rating is 0.3C

they will do 1C continuous.

at 1.4C continuous with 4C peaks, my 40Ah cells lasted 500 cycles to 60% of
original capacity.

keep the continuous discharge rate down.

it sorta scales exponentially

Matt

----- Original Message -----
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 8:54 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?

Evan;

Curious to your comment about not going above 1C at cruising speed.
Specs for Thundersky show constant current at 3C and CALB shows 4C.

Thanks;
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
http://www.evalbum.com/1366

-----Original Message-----
From: Evan Tuer [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 6:27 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?

On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 11:32 PM, Kyle Bonds <[email protected]>

wrote:
>
> I am short on cash, and have been happy with my 15 mile range, and if
> I use 60ah lithiums I can afford the switch and still have 144 volts.
> My worry is that pulling 150 amps for 5 minutes on my commute every
> morning and evening, and 200 amps for 10 seconds every morning to pull
> out onto the road, would kill the 60ah batteries.

I would say that's pushing them far too hard. You shouldn't go above 1C at
cruising speed.
And in cold weather the voltage sag will make it undriveable, unless you're
planning to heat them as well.

If you're happy with 15 miles range and don't have much money, stick with
lead, or you'll just be buying yourself a problem.

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3306 - Release Date: 12/09/10

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EVDL List · Dec 10, 2010

Thanks everyone for the input. The siren call of having an affordable pack
that weighs a third of what my lead pack weighs had gotten my hopes up. I
have AGMs in the car now (so that I did not have to deal with the fumes from
the floodies) and the damn lies of the salesmen sunk me. The AGMs are not
up to the task, and stepping up to a small truck would cost too much for
now.

Mark Grasser <[email protected]>wrote:

> OUCH!!
> More detail please.
> 1. Thundersky or Sky energy?
> 2. Were they early ones or new and improved?
> 3. How far were you discharging them? 100%, 80%?
> 4. Same question a different way. 60% of what?
>
> Sincerely,
> Mark Grasser
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf
> Of matt lacey
> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 2:26 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?
>
> Dennis,
>
> >Specs for Thundersky show constant current at 3C and CALB shows 4C.
>
> No no, those are for 30 seconds only.
> Their continuous rating is 0.3C
>
> they will do 1C continuous.
>
> at 1.4C continuous with 4C peaks, my 40Ah cells lasted 500 cycles to 60% of
> original capacity.
>
> keep the continuous discharge rate down.
>
> it sorta scales exponentially
>
> Matt
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 8:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?
>
>
> Evan;
>
> Curious to your comment about not going above 1C at cruising speed.
> Specs for Thundersky show constant current at 3C and CALB shows 4C.
>
> Thanks;
> Dennis
> Elsberry, MO
> http://www.evalbum.com/1366
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Evan Tuer [mailto:evan[email protected]]
> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 6:27 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?
>
> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 11:32 PM, Kyle Bonds <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> > I am short on cash, and have been happy with my 15 mile range, and if
> > I use 60ah lithiums I can afford the switch and still have 144 volts.
> > My worry is that pulling 150 amps for 5 minutes on my commute every
> > morning and evening, and 200 amps for 10 seconds every morning to pull
> > out onto the road, would kill the 60ah batteries.
>
> I would say that's pushing them far too hard. You shouldn't go above 1C at
> cruising speed.
> And in cold weather the voltage sag will make it undriveable, unless you're
> planning to heat them as well.
>
> If you're happy with 15 miles range and don't have much money, stick with
> lead, or you'll just be buying yourself a problem.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3306 - Release Date: 12/09/10
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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EVDL List · Dec 11, 2010

Hi Guys,

> OUCH!!
> More detail please.
> 1. Thundersky or Sky energy?
> 2. Were they early ones or new and improved?
> 3. How far were you discharging them? 100%, 80%?
> 4. Same question a different way. 60% of what?

Thundersky 40Ah cells, 02-Oct-2007 production date
discharge depth was between 30% and 80%, with an average around 50%.
60% of 40Ah, or 24Ah capacity remaining

continuous discharge rate was 55A (necessary to maintain 35mph)

>Wow. I've NEVER heard this before. Could you provide links to
>supporting information? I've got CALB 60Ah batteries and I'm typically
>running 0.9 to 1.2 C during cruise.

http://evcomponents.com/cscart/index.php?dispatch=attachments.getfile&attachment_id=28

Theres CALB's data sheet.
it looks like TS have increased their true continuous current to 0.5C.

discharging faster reduces cycle life exponentially.

at 1.4C you get better than 500 cycles.
at 1C the service life is long enoguh I haven't heard of significant early
reduction in capacity.

My new bike runs at 1.1C at 70mph, ([email protected]) but unlike the old scooter,
thats not from the moment I turn it on to the moment I turn it off.
Thats just when I'm going reasonably fast.

Matt

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Grasser" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 3:45 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?

> OUCH!!
> More detail please.
> 1. Thundersky or Sky energy?
> 2. Were they early ones or new and improved?
> 3. How far were you discharging them? 100%, 80%?
> 4. Same question a different way. 60% of what?
>
> Sincerely,
> Mark Grasser
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf
> Of matt lacey
> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 2:26 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?
>
> Dennis,
>
>>Specs for Thundersky show constant current at 3C and CALB shows 4C.
>
> No no, those are for 30 seconds only.
> Their continuous rating is 0.3C
>
> they will do 1C continuous.
>
> at 1.4C continuous with 4C peaks, my 40Ah cells lasted 500 cycles to 60%
> of
> original capacity.
>
> keep the continuous discharge rate down.
>
> it sorta scales exponentially
>
> Matt
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 8:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?
>
>
> Evan;
>
> Curious to your comment about not going above 1C at cruising speed.
> Specs for Thundersky show constant current at 3C and CALB shows 4C.
>
> Thanks;
> Dennis
> Elsberry, MO
> http://www.evalbum.com/1366
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Evan Tuer [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 6:27 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?
>
> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 11:32 PM, Kyle Bonds <[email protected]>

> wrote:
>>
>> I am short on cash, and have been happy with my 15 mile range, and if
>> I use 60ah lithiums I can afford the switch and still have 144 volts.
>> My worry is that pulling 150 amps for 5 minutes on my commute every
>> morning and evening, and 200 amps for 10 seconds every morning to pull
>> out onto the road, would kill the 60ah batteries.
>
> I would say that's pushing them far too hard. You shouldn't go above 1C
> at
> cruising speed.
> And in cold weather the voltage sag will make it undriveable, unless
> you're
> planning to heat them as well.
>
> If you're happy with 15 miles range and don't have much money, stick with
> lead, or you'll just be buying yourself a problem.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3306 - Release Date: 12/09/10
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>
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>
>
> -----
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> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3306 - Release Date: 12/09/10
>

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EVDL List · Dec 11, 2010

If you need to draw high currents for relatively short periods, you might
consider a "hybrid" battery. Use the lithium for range, with a small AGM
lead battery (perhaps 10-20ah) in parallel with it for short term
acceleration. For that purpose you might even use small and inexpensive SLI
batteries.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL List · Dec 11, 2010

matt lacey wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>
>
>> OUCH!!
>> More detail please.
>> 1. Thundersky or Sky energy?
>> 2. Were they early ones or new and improved?
>> 3. How far were you discharging them? 100%, 80%?
>> 4. Same question a different way. 60% of what?
>>
> Thundersky 40Ah cells, 02-Oct-2007 production date
> discharge depth was between 30% and 80%, with an average around 50%.
> 60% of 40Ah, or 24Ah capacity remaining
>
How are you defining DoD -- original capacity or capacity at that time?
What BMS did you use?
What per-cell voltage did you charge to?
What was your lower voltage limit? If you never went below 80% DoD, I
take it no cell ever went below 3V?

Cory

> continuous discharge rate was 55A (necessary to maintain 35mph)
>
>
>> Wow. I've NEVER heard this before. Could you provide links to
>> supporting information? I've got CALB 60Ah batteries and I'm typically
>> running 0.9 to 1.2 C during cruise.
>>
> http://evcomponents.com/cscart/index.php?dispatch=attachments.getfile&attachment_id=28
>
> Theres CALB's data sheet.
> it looks like TS have increased their true continuous current to 0.5C.
>
> discharging faster reduces cycle life exponentially.
>
> at 1.4C you get better than 500 cycles.
> at 1C the service life is long enoguh I haven't heard of significant early
> reduction in capacity.
>
> My new bike runs at 1.1C at 70mph, ([email protected]) but unlike the old scooter,
> thats not from the moment I turn it on to the moment I turn it off.
> Thats just when I'm going reasonably fast.
>
> Matt
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Grasser" <[email protected]>
> To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 3:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?
>
>
>
>> OUCH!!
>> More detail please.
>> 1. Thundersky or Sky energy?
>> 2. Were they early ones or new and improved?
>> 3. How far were you discharging them? 100%, 80%?
>> 4. Same question a different way. 60% of what?
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Mark Grasser
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
>> Behalf
>> Of matt lacey
>> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 2:26 PM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?
>>
>> Dennis,
>>
>>
>>> Specs for Thundersky show constant current at 3C and CALB shows 4C.
>>>
>> No no, those are for 30 seconds only.
>> Their continuous rating is 0.3C
>>
>> they will do 1C continuous.
>>
>> at 1.4C continuous with 4C peaks, my 40Ah cells lasted 500 cycles to 60%
>> of
>> original capacity.
>>
>> keep the continuous discharge rate down.
>>
>> it sorta scales exponentially
>>
>> Matt
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[email protected]>
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 8:54 PM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?
>>
>>
>> Evan;
>>
>> Curious to your comment about not going above 1C at cruising speed.
>> Specs for Thundersky show constant current at 3C and CALB shows 4C.
>>
>> Thanks;
>> Dennis
>> Elsberry, MO
>> http://www.evalbum.com/1366
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Evan Tuer [mailto:[email protected]]
>> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 6:27 AM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 11:32 PM, Kyle Bonds <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I am short on cash, and have been happy with my 15 mile range, and if
>>> I use 60ah lithiums I can afford the switch and still have 144 volts.
>>> My worry is that pulling 150 amps for 5 minutes on my commute every
>>> morning and evening, and 200 amps for 10 seconds every morning to pull
>>> out onto the road, would kill the 60ah batteries.
>>>
>> I would say that's pushing them far too hard. You shouldn't go above 1C
>> at
>> cruising speed.
>> And in cold weather the voltage sag will make it undriveable, unless
>> you're
>> planning to heat them as well.
>>
>> If you're happy with 15 miles range and don't have much money, stick with
>> lead, or you'll just be buying yourself a problem.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3306 - Release Date: 12/09/10
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>>
>>
>> -----
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>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3306 - Release Date: 12/09/10
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
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EVDL List · Dec 11, 2010

> Hi Guys,
>
> Thundersky 40Ah cells, 02-Oct-2007 production date
> discharge depth was between 30% and 80%, with an average around 50%.
> 60% of 40Ah, or 24Ah capacity remaining
>
> continuous discharge rate was 55A (necessary to maintain 35mph)
>
> http://evcomponents.com/cscart/index.php?dispatch=attachments.getfile&attachment_id=28
>
> Theres CALB's data sheet.
> it looks like TS have increased their true continuous current to 0.5C.
>
> discharging faster reduces cycle life exponentially.
>
> at 1.4C you get better than 500 cycles.
> at 1C the service life is long enoguh I haven't heard of significant
> early
> reduction in capacity.
>
> My new bike runs at 1.1C at 70mph, ([email protected]) but unlike the old
> scooter,
> thats not from the moment I turn it on to the moment I turn it off.
> Thats just when I'm going reasonably fast.
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>> OUCH!!
>> More detail please.
>> 1. Thundersky or Sky energy?
>> 2. Were they early ones or new and improved?
>> 3. How far were you discharging them? 100%, 80%?
>> 4. Same question a different way. 60% of what?
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Mark Grasser
>>

Interestingly enough, I have just checked TS' website and there is a
new manual up (I only had one dated Jan '09). It has changed a bit,
most notably nothing about continuous discharge but a lot about max
charge rate - 3C max with max case temp of 85 deg C. To me this would
suggest a continuous 3C DISCHARGE is OK too. But as was mentioned
earlier, the lower the rates in both cases, the longer the cells will
live.

Also changed is the operating voltage. Although the absolute min
volts is still 2.0V, they state that for 3k cycles min volts must be
kept above 2.5V.

This may all be relevant only to the new Yttrium cells, of course.

I think TS cells made a bit of a leap in quality during 2007/8. When
I bought mine in August they had all Al posts. I gather now they are
Cu & Al.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk

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EVDL List · Dec 12, 2010

Hi Matt,

Thanks for the answers. I have to say my interpretation of your
experience does NOT validate the hypothesis the higher-amperage
discharges reduces the life span.

matt lacey wrote:
> there were 5 occasions where discharge was to 100% (cell voltages around 2v at no load)
> capacity measured on next discharge did not show any immediate loss of capacity.
>
I don't think you are accurately measuring capacity. If you had never
discharged below 80% DoD, your cells would never have gone down to 2V
under load ever and likely never below 2.8V even at 5C. A no-load
voltage of 2V shows you severely over-discharged the cells, and most
likely reversed some.

I believe your over-discharge is the likely culprit of cell damage (loss
of capacity) when no others have claimed such a loss due to high
discharge currents. So, for me, your experience is insufficient evidence
to reject the null-hypothesis that cycle life is independent of
discharge rate. (though heat itself could have an effect, that is a
side-effect of the discharge).

Cory

> Matt
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Cory Cross
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 6:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?
>
>
>

matt lacey wrote:
> > Hi Guys,
> >
> >
> >> OUCH!!
> >> More detail please.
> >> 1. Thundersky or Sky energy?
> >> 2. Were they early ones or new and improved?
> >> 3. How far were you discharging them? 100%, 80%?
> >> 4. Same question a different way. 60% of what?
> >>
> > Thundersky 40Ah cells, 02-Oct-2007 production date
> > discharge depth was between 30% and 80%, with an average around 50%.
> > 60% of 40Ah, or 24Ah capacity remaining
> >
> How are you defining DoD -- original capacity or capacity at that time?
> What BMS did you use?
> What per-cell voltage did you charge to?
> What was your lower voltage limit? If you never went below 80% DoD, I
> take it no cell ever went below 3V?
>
> Cory
>
> > continuous discharge rate was 55A (necessary to maintain 35mph)
> >
> >
> >> Wow. I've NEVER heard this before. Could you provide links to
> >> supporting information? I've got CALB 60Ah batteries and I'm typically
> >> running 0.9 to 1.2 C during cruise.
> >>
> > http://evcomponents.com/cscart/index.php?dispatch=attachments.getfile&attachment_id=28
> >
> > Theres CALB's data sheet.
> > it looks like TS have increased their true continuous current to 0.5C.
> >
> > discharging faster reduces cycle life exponentially.
> >
> > at 1.4C you get better than 500 cycles.
> > at 1C the service life is long enoguh I haven't heard of significant early
> > reduction in capacity.
> >
> > My new bike runs at 1.1C at 70mph, ([email protected]) but unlike the old scooter,
> > thats not from the moment I turn it on to the moment I turn it off.
> > Thats just when I'm going reasonably fast.
> >
> > Matt
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mark Grasser" <[email protected]>
> > To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 3:45 AM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?
> >
> >
> >
> >> OUCH!!
> >> More detail please.
> >> 1. Thundersky or Sky energy?
> >> 2. Were they early ones or new and improved?
> >> 3. How far were you discharging them? 100%, 80%?
> >> 4. Same question a different way. 60% of what?
> >>
> >> Sincerely,
> >> Mark Grasser
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> >> Behalf
> >> Of matt lacey
> >> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 2:26 PM
> >> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?
> >>
> >> Dennis,
> >>
> >>
> >>> Specs for Thundersky show constant current at 3C and CALB shows 4C.
> >>>
> >> No no, those are for 30 seconds only.
> >> Their continuous rating is 0.3C
> >>
> >> they will do 1C continuous.
> >>
> >> at 1.4C continuous with 4C peaks, my 40Ah cells lasted 500 cycles to 60%
> >> of
> >> original capacity.
> >>
> >> keep the continuous discharge rate down.
> >>
> >> it sorta scales exponentially
> >>
> >> Matt
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[email protected]>
> >> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> >> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 8:54 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?
> >>
> >>
> >> Evan;
> >>
> >> Curious to your comment about not going above 1C at cruising speed.
> >> Specs for Thundersky show constant current at 3C and CALB shows 4C.
> >>
> >> Thanks;
> >> Dennis
> >> Elsberry, MO
> >> http://www.evalbum.com/1366
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Evan Tuer [mailto:[email protected]]
> >> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 6:27 AM
> >> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?
> >>
> >> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 11:32 PM, Kyle Bonds <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I am short on cash, and have been happy with my 15 mile range, and if
> >>> I use 60ah lithiums I can afford the switch and still have 144 volts.
> >>> My worry is that pulling 150 amps for 5 minutes on my commute every
> >>> morning and evening, and 200 amps for 10 seconds every morning to pull
> >>> out onto the road, would kill the 60ah batteries.
> >>>
> >> I would say that's pushing them far too hard. You shouldn't go above 1C
> >> at
> >> cruising speed.
> >> And in cold weather the voltage sag will make it undriveable, unless
> >> you're
> >> planning to heat them as well.
> >>
> >> If you're happy with 15 miles range and don't have much money, stick with
> >> lead, or you'll just be buying yourself a problem.
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >> -----
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> >>
> >>
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> >>
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> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
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[EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?

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