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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Im putting together a design for my battery box which will hold 40 cylindrical Headway 16ah cells 40mm diameter 160mm long.

Im thinking of laser cutting two acrylicsheets with 40 holes in. The cells will lie horizontal with one sheet at each end to hold them in position. Once the connecting bars are fitted between the cells that should form quite a nice rigid unit.

Im then thinking of dropping that unit into a vacuum formed plastic box to provide an electrically insulated housing. The box will have a lip on the top, around the edge, onto which a flat top can be bolted.

This presents two issues which I would appreciate some advice on.

1. The top will need to have two bolts through it which will form the main terminals, Im therefore thinking that the top is going to need to be fairly heat resistant and am not sure which is the best material to use? Maybe some kind of rubber?

2. I also need to accommodate 5 Manzantia Mk3x8 BMS PCBs, preferably within the vac formed box.

Although theres plenty of space to do this, and the dimensions are such that it lines up quite nicely Im concerned again about heat dissipation from the L shaped heatsinks on the boards. Im thinking of bolting all 5 L shaped heat sinks together to a larger sink to hold the boards together and dissipate the heat better but if I then just drop the 5 boards into the vac-formed box will the heat inside be too much? Really im thinking I need some sort of vent on the top? Again it needs to be insulated really for safety, so maybe a plastic fan and grill?

The BMS boards have the facility to drive a fan.

Thanks
Andrew

Sent from iPhone

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Hello Andrew,

You can get electrical insulator board from a motor shop. This stuff comes
in thin sheets to over 1 inch thick. You can also get bulkhead electrical
connections like the type that are use on motors. I ran my battery cables
through large grommets on the side of the box that are then connected
directly to the main fuse and safety contactors.

In my epoxy fiberglass battery box which is 1/4 inch thick, I use one
external exhaust fan that is connected to the box using 2 inch diameter pvc
water fittings and a pvc 2 inch flexible vacuum hose to connected up to a
Dayton 6 inch 120 vac blower fan. Install this fan only to exhaust, not to
blow in air.

Provide on inlet on the opposite corner using the same size and type of pipe
fittings. I drill a hole in the floor pan for a 90 degree 2 inch elbow
which is fasten to the body sheet metal by using a 2 inch adapter flange as
a chase nipple. Point the 90 degree elbow to the rear with a short length
of pipe. I painted all these white pvc fittings with that new paint that is
design for plastic.

In than stuff this inlet pipe with that 3-M green plastic filter material
that is use for A/C units which you can get a most hardware stores.

Roland




----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Wood" <[email protected]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 4:31 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Looking for advice on building battery box


> Im putting together a design for my battery box which will hold 40
> cylindrical Headway 16ah cells 40mm diameter 160mm long.
>
> Im thinking of laser cutting two acrylicsheets with 40 holes in. The
> cells will lie horizontal with one sheet at each end to hold them in
> position. Once the connecting bars are fitted between the cells that
> should form quite a nice rigid unit.
>
> Im then thinking of dropping that unit into a vacuum formed plastic box to
> provide an electrically insulated housing. The box will have a lip on the
> top, around the edge, onto which a flat top can be bolted.
>
> This presents two issues which I would appreciate some advice on.
>
> 1. The top will need to have two bolts through it which will form the
> main terminals, Im therefore thinking that the top is going to need to be
> fairly heat resistant and am not sure which is the best material to use?
> Maybe some kind of rubber?
>
> 2. I also need to accommodate 5 Manzantia Mk3x8 BMS PCBs, preferably
> within the vac formed box.
>
> Although theres plenty of space to do this, and the dimensions are such
> that it lines up quite nicely Im concerned again about heat dissipation
> from the L shaped heatsinks on the boards. Im thinking of bolting all 5 L
> shaped heat sinks together to a larger sink to hold the boards together
> and dissipate the heat better but if I then just drop the 5 boards into
> the vac-formed box will the heat inside be too much? Really im thinking I
> need some sort of vent on the top? Again it needs to be insulated really
> for safety, so maybe a plastic fan and grill?
>
> The BMS boards have the facility to drive a fan.
>
> Thanks
> Andrew
>
> Sent from iPhone
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
All good points thanks everyone.

Just wondering though about water ingress if ventolation is at the bottom - Im intending to put the battery boxes under the vehicle

Sent from iPhone

Mark Grasser <[email protected]> wrote:

> A couple more points.
>
> Use Sheet steel if possible. A Lithium fire will melt aluminum. Steel is not
> all that heavy. 20ga is 1.5 pounds per sq ft.
>
> Put the venting at the bottom of the box. Hydrogen is lighter than air but
> the gasses that Lithium batteries release in heavier then air. It acts like
> propane, settling at the bottom of the box. Without venting at the bottom of
> the box any gassing will settle there and you simply drive it around with
> you. I think a lot of the fires we read about happen because people are
> still building their battery boxes old school with venting at the top of the
> box.
>
> Sincerely,
> Mark Grasser
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
> Of Lee Hart
> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 11:31 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking for advice on building battery box
>
> On 3/17/2011 5:31 AM, Andrew Wood wrote:
>> I'm putting together a design for my battery box which will hold 40
>> cylindrical Headway 16ah cells 40mm diameter 160mm long.
>>
>> I'm thinking of laser cutting two acrylicsheets with 40 holes in. The
>> cells will lie horizontal with one sheet at each end to hold them in
>> position. Once the connecting bars are fitted between the cells that
>> should form quite a nice rigid unit.
>
> Lithium cells burn. You don't want to use more combustible materials to
> contain them!
>
> High voltage electrical boxes are always made out of something that
> won't burn; metal, bakelite, phenolic, fiberglass with fire retardant
> binders, etc.
>
> Acrylic plastic would be a particularly bad choice. It is very brittle,
> and breaks easily. It has a very low melting point; the cells can easily
> get hot enough to melt it. And it burns ferociously, leaving lots of
> electrically conductive residue.
>
> Consider a metal case, so if there's a fire it won't easily spread to
> the rest of the car. Where you need insulating materials, use something
> that won't melt or burn, like UL listed bakelite (black), phenolic
> (brown), or fiberglass (red or other colors), or FR4 printed circuit
> board material (usually green).
>
>> 2. I also need to accommodate 5 Manzantia Mk3x8 BMS PCBs, preferably
>> within the vac formed box.
>
> Recognize that the cells themselves, and the BMS boards generate heat.
> You need a way to ventilate the box to get that heat out. At high
> currents, the cells will generate a lot more heat than the BMS.
>
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
How about this. A small exhaust blower, the inlet side attached to a tube
that sucks from the bottom of the box during charging.

Sincerely,
Mark Grasser


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Andrew Wood
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 12:50 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking for advice on building battery box

All good points thanks everyone.

Just wondering though about water ingress if ventilation is at the bottom -
I'm intending to put the battery boxes under the vehicle

Sent from iPhone

Mark Grasser <[email protected]> wrote:

> A couple more points.
>
> Use Sheet steel if possible. A Lithium fire will melt aluminum. Steel is
not
> all that heavy. 20ga is 1.5 pounds per sq ft.
>
> Put the venting at the bottom of the box. Hydrogen is lighter than air but
> the gasses that Lithium batteries release in heavier then air. It acts
like
> propane, settling at the bottom of the box. Without venting at the bottom
of
> the box any gassing will settle there and you simply drive it around with
> you. I think a lot of the fires we read about happen because people are
> still building their battery boxes old school with venting at the top of
the
> box.
>
> Sincerely,
> Mark Grasser
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf
> Of Lee Hart
> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 11:31 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking for advice on building battery box
>
> On 3/17/2011 5:31 AM, Andrew Wood wrote:
>> I'm putting together a design for my battery box which will hold 40
>> cylindrical Headway 16ah cells 40mm diameter 160mm long.
>>
>> I'm thinking of laser cutting two acrylicsheets with 40 holes in. The
>> cells will lie horizontal with one sheet at each end to hold them in
>> position. Once the connecting bars are fitted between the cells that
>> should form quite a nice rigid unit.
>
> Lithium cells burn. You don't want to use more combustible materials to
> contain them!
>
> High voltage electrical boxes are always made out of something that
> won't burn; metal, bakelite, phenolic, fiberglass with fire retardant
> binders, etc.
>
> Acrylic plastic would be a particularly bad choice. It is very brittle,
> and breaks easily. It has a very low melting point; the cells can easily
> get hot enough to melt it. And it burns ferociously, leaving lots of
> electrically conductive residue.
>
> Consider a metal case, so if there's a fire it won't easily spread to
> the rest of the car. Where you need insulating materials, use something
> that won't melt or burn, like UL listed bakelite (black), phenolic
> (brown), or fiberglass (red or other colors), or FR4 printed circuit
> board material (usually green).
>
>> 2. I also need to accommodate 5 Manzantia Mk3x8 BMS PCBs, preferably
>> within the vac formed box.
>
> Recognize that the cells themselves, and the BMS boards generate heat.
> You need a way to ventilate the box to get that heat out. At high
> currents, the cells will generate a lot more heat than the BMS.
>
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Andrew

I wouldn't worry about water coming in the bottom. If your boxes are
up to the task of handling batteries, they won't be bothered by a
little water. Are you concerned about splashing through puddles? It
will drain. Are you using flooded batteries? If so you should plan on
rinsing them off once in a while to clean them up. It's not like you
are charging with them submerged so I wouldn't worry about sucking up
any water.

The best airflow is probably from bottom to top, with the fan drawing
air out the top as Roland suggested. You want the fans to create a
vacuum by drawing air out of the box, not pressurizing the incoming
air.

Mine have vents in the bottom and every once in a while I'll hose them
off and everything drains out the bottom. No problems. They are made
from 1/4 inch, 5 layer plywood that I fiberglassed after construction.
I coated the inside with a rubberized/flexible roof coating. I have
flooded NiCads and after several years of use there is no sign of any
problems. And yes, I have stuck the hose in there to rinse things out.

DAC

On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 1:10 PM, Mark Grasser <[email protected]> wro=
te:
> How about this. A small exhaust blower, the inlet side attached to a tube
> that sucks from the bottom of the box during charging.
>
> Sincerely,
> Mark Grasser
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Beh=
alf
> Of Andrew Wood
> Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 12:50 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking for advice on building battery box
>
> All good points thanks everyone.
>
> Just wondering though about water ingress if ventilation is at the bottom=
-
> I'm intending to put the battery boxes under the vehicle
>
> Sent from iPhone
>
>
Mark Grasser <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> A couple more points.
>>
>> Use Sheet steel if possible. A Lithium fire will melt aluminum. Steel is
> not
>> all that heavy. 20ga is 1.5 pounds per sq ft.
>>
>> Put the venting at the bottom of the box. Hydrogen is lighter than air b=
ut
>> the gasses that Lithium batteries release in heavier then air. It acts
> like
>> propane, settling at the bottom of the box. Without venting at the bottom
> of
>> the box any gassing will settle there and you simply drive it around with
>> you. I think a lot of the fires we read about happen because people are
>> still building their battery boxes old school with venting at the top of
> the
>> box.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Mark Grasser
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf
>> Of Lee Hart
>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 11:31 AM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking for advice on building battery box
>>
>> On 3/17/2011 5:31 AM, Andrew Wood wrote:
>>> I'm putting together a design for my battery box which will hold 40
>>> cylindrical Headway 16ah cells 40mm diameter 160mm long.
>>>
>>> I'm thinking of laser cutting two acrylicsheets with 40 holes in. The
>>> cells will lie horizontal with one sheet at each end to hold them in
>>> position. Once the connecting bars are fitted between the cells that
>>> should form quite a nice rigid unit.
>>
>> Lithium cells burn. You don't want to use more combustible materials to
>> contain them!
>>
>> High voltage electrical boxes are always made out of something that
>> won't burn; metal, bakelite, phenolic, fiberglass with fire retardant
>> binders, etc.
>>
>> Acrylic plastic would be a particularly bad choice. It is very brittle,
>> and breaks easily. It has a very low melting point; the cells can easily
>> get hot enough to melt it. And it burns ferociously, leaving lots of
>> electrically conductive residue.
>>
>> Consider a metal case, so if there's a fire it won't easily spread to
>> the rest of the car. Where you need insulating materials, use something
>> that won't melt or burn, like UL listed bakelite (black), phenolic
>> (brown), or fiberglass (red or other colors), or FR4 printed circuit
>> board material (usually green).
>>
>>> 2. I also need to accommodate 5 Manzantia Mk3x8 BMS PCBs, preferably
>>> within the vac formed box.
>>
>> Recognize that the cells themselves, and the BMS boards generate heat.
>> You need a way to ventilate the box to get that heat out. At high
>> currents, the cells will generate a lot more heat than the BMS.
>>
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
>> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
>> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
>> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard =
Cohen
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
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>
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>



-- =

http://www.evalbum.com/2149

_______________________________________________
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Hi Peter,

The book that came with my TS cells says that the electrolyte is a
solution of Lithiumhexafluorophosphate (LiPF6) in a mixture of organic
solvents listed as "Ethylene Carbonate (EC) + Di-ethyl Carbonate (DMC)
+ Di-ethyl Carbonate (DEC) + Ethyl Acetate (EA)." Going by the letters
for the second item I'm thinking it might be Di-methyl Carbonate.

Under normal use lithium batteries should not outgas so taking care of
outgasing is for the situation where something goes wrong.

On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 12:15 PM, Peter C. Thompson
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> I've been following this thread with great interest, and as usual been
> very impressed with the level of technical content. One thing has
> bothered me: someone mentioned that the lithium batteries outgas a
> heavier-than-air mixture. Is there a link to this (some form of citati=
on)?
>
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> On 3/18/2011 1:02 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
> > On 3/18/2011 10:50 AM, Andrew Wood wrote:
> >> All good points thanks everyone.
> >>
> >> Just wondering though about water ingress if ventolation is at the bot=
tom - Im intending to put the battery boxes under the vehicle
> > In a vehicle, assume water will get into *everything*, no matter what
> > you do. Provide methods to deal with it when it happens.
> >
> > A small hole in the bottom of the battery box won't let any significant
> > amount of water in; but it will let any water that does get in drain
> > back out.
> >
> > As Mark said, it's also worth it for ventilation. I would have a hole
> > both on top and on the bottom, so any gases that form inside can get
> > out, whether lighter than air (H2) or heavier than air (hydrocarbon
> > solvents).
> >

--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
That's why I didn't put vents on the bottom of the rear battery box on the
Mustang - didn't want water/salt intrusion. I doubt that the batteries will
get that hot, but...

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]



----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Wood" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking for advice on building battery box


> All good points thanks everyone.
>
> Just wondering though about water ingress if ventolation is at the
> bottom - Im intending to put the battery boxes under the vehicle
>
> Sent from iPhone
>
>
Mark Grasser <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> A couple more points.
>>
>> Use Sheet steel if possible. A Lithium fire will melt aluminum. Steel is
>> not
>> all that heavy. 20ga is 1.5 pounds per sq ft.
>>
>> Put the venting at the bottom of the box. Hydrogen is lighter than air
>> but
>> the gasses that Lithium batteries release in heavier then air. It acts
>> like
>> propane, settling at the bottom of the box. Without venting at the bottom
>> of
>> the box any gassing will settle there and you simply drive it around with
>> you. I think a lot of the fires we read about happen because people are
>> still building their battery boxes old school with venting at the top of
>> the
>> box.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Mark Grasser
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Lee Hart
>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 11:31 AM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking for advice on building battery box
>>
>> On 3/17/2011 5:31 AM, Andrew Wood wrote:
>>> I'm putting together a design for my battery box which will hold 40
>>> cylindrical Headway 16ah cells 40mm diameter 160mm long.
>>>
>>> I'm thinking of laser cutting two acrylicsheets with 40 holes in. The
>>> cells will lie horizontal with one sheet at each end to hold them in
>>> position. Once the connecting bars are fitted between the cells that
>>> should form quite a nice rigid unit.
>>
>> Lithium cells burn. You don't want to use more combustible materials to
>> contain them!
>>
>> High voltage electrical boxes are always made out of something that
>> won't burn; metal, bakelite, phenolic, fiberglass with fire retardant
>> binders, etc.
>>
>> Acrylic plastic would be a particularly bad choice. It is very brittle,
>> and breaks easily. It has a very low melting point; the cells can easily
>> get hot enough to melt it. And it burns ferociously, leaving lots of
>> electrically conductive residue.
>>
>> Consider a metal case, so if there's a fire it won't easily spread to
>> the rest of the car. Where you need insulating materials, use something
>> that won't melt or burn, like UL listed bakelite (black), phenolic
>> (brown), or fiberglass (red or other colors), or FR4 printed circuit
>> board material (usually green).
>>
>>> 2. I also need to accommodate 5 Manzantia Mk3x8 BMS PCBs, preferably
>>> within the vac formed box.
>>
>> Recognize that the cells themselves, and the BMS boards generate heat.
>> You need a way to ventilate the box to get that heat out. At high
>> currents, the cells will generate a lot more heat than the BMS.
>>
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
>> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
>> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
>> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
What about fuses and circuit breakers inside the battery box?

Ive got a main fuse and separate circuit breaker but Im a bit concerned about what will happen when I wire the 40 cells in series and thus get 144v. Would I be better connecting the cells in series in say 3 blocks each with a circuit breaker between them to reduce shock risk when assembling?

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Hello Andrew,

It is recommended to install the overload protection devices that will
produce a arc out of a Glass I, Division II atmosphere. To prevent this arc,
you either install these devices in explosive proof enclosures or outside
these areas.

Make sure that when you work on the batteries, is to disconnect the charger
either by a plug and connector or by a battery charger contactor.

Also the battery pack should be disconnected from the main contactor and
motor controller either by a plug and connector or by two safety contactors
which I use that is control by the ON POSITION of the Ignition Switch.

This completely isolates the battery pack from the battery charger and motor
controller unit and the frame and/or body of the EV which may conduct some
battery current through the motor and through the brush dust to the motor
shaft.

It is recommended to not ground the most negative of the battery pack to the
ground of the EV. If you are using a type of battery that may have leakage,
the current may flow from the surface of the battery to a conductive
surface. I also seen the batteries arcing to the vehicle frame in the dark
or by a infrared sensor equipment that we use to detect leakage in
equipment.

I could actually see the commutator arcing to the shaft with the lights off
while I am charging. Also had a full battery voltage from the most positive
to the vehicle frame. Installing the safety contactors completely isolated
the batteries from any electrical devices while the ignition switch and
battery charger was off.

If your batteries are place short rows that are next to each other, the
maximum voltage between any two rolls will be the total voltage of that
roll. Lets say you have a 144 volt pack and have four rolls of battery,
that will be 36 volts of battery between any two rolls.

I am using a 180 volt battery pack with 5 rolls of 36 volts per roll. For me
this is 72 volts maximum between the end loops of these batteries rolls. For
me this is low voltage, I am use to working on voltages up to 12,470 volts.

When I work on the batteries, I use several sheets of neoprene rubber to
cover the batteries that are adjacent to the ones I'm working on. Also
drape rubber sheets over the any metal surfaces of the vehicle.

I have a set of Kline electrical tools that have insulated handles that is
rated for the voltage you are working on. You could also install heavy duty
heat shrink over standard tools. This type of heat shrink gets up to 1/8
inch thick when apply.

To test the insulation of these tools, you should be able to drop it across
the batteries where the expose metal parts of the tool will not bridge any
two battery terminals. The only tool that I do not have this heat shrink
on, is my inch pound torque wrench. After I adjust this wrench, I slip on a
rubber hose over the handle.

The ground surface should be also insulated where you stand on. Those rubber
interlocking floor pads work good. Wear good foot wear with a insulated
sole and clothes where no bare skin touches the vehicle.

In very high voltage systems, are electrical workers must stand on a glass
surface that has four insulator legs that hold this platform about 4 inches
off the ground. It is a requirement for electrical workers that work LIVE,
must work in two man teams.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Wood" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 10:24 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking for advice on building battery box


> What about fuses and circuit breakers inside the battery box?
>
> Ive got a main fuse and separate circuit breaker but Im a bit concerned
> about what will happen when I wire the 40 cells in series and thus get
> 144v. Would I be better connecting the cells in series in say 3 blocks
> each with a circuit breaker between them to reduce shock risk when
> assembling?
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Andrew Wood wrote:
> What about fuses and circuit breakers inside the battery box?

Here is my approach, honed by 30+years with EVs.

Each battery box should have a fuse inside it. Ideally, it splits the
batteries inside into two roughly equal halves. Its purpose is to blow
if something shorts the two wires coming from that battery box.

You can also remove the fuse when working on the batteries. This means
that the maximum voltage you can get is halved, and accidents (dropping
a wrench, etc.) can only short at most half the batteries.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Another thought is vents on the bottom allow you to wash off your batteries with
water and let it drain out.



________________________________
From: joe <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, March 18, 2011 11:27:48 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking for advice on building battery box

That's why I didn't put vents on the bottom of the rear battery box on the
Mustang - didn't want water/salt intrusion. I doubt that the batteries will
get that hot, but...

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]



----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Wood" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking for advice on building battery box


> All good points thanks everyone.
>
> Just wondering though about water ingress if ventolation is at the
> bottom - Im intending to put the battery boxes under the vehicle
>
> Sent from iPhone
>
>
Mark Grasser <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> A couple more points.
>>
>> Use Sheet steel if possible. A Lithium fire will melt aluminum. Steel is
>> not
>> all that heavy. 20ga is 1.5 pounds per sq ft.
>>
>> Put the venting at the bottom of the box. Hydrogen is lighter than air
>> but
>> the gasses that Lithium batteries release in heavier then air. It acts
>> like
>> propane, settling at the bottom of the box. Without venting at the bottom
>> of
>> the box any gassing will settle there and you simply drive it around with
>> you. I think a lot of the fires we read about happen because people are
>> still building their battery boxes old school with venting at the top of
>> the
>> box.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Mark Grasser
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Lee Hart
>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 11:31 AM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking for advice on building battery box
>>
>> On 3/17/2011 5:31 AM, Andrew Wood wrote:
>>> I'm putting together a design for my battery box which will hold 40
>>> cylindrical Headway 16ah cells 40mm diameter 160mm long.
>>>
>>> I'm thinking of laser cutting two acrylicsheets with 40 holes in. The
>>> cells will lie horizontal with one sheet at each end to hold them in
>>> position. Once the connecting bars are fitted between the cells that
>>> should form quite a nice rigid unit.
>>
>> Lithium cells burn. You don't want to use more combustible materials to
>> contain them!
>>
>> High voltage electrical boxes are always made out of something that
>> won't burn; metal, bakelite, phenolic, fiberglass with fire retardant
>> binders, etc.
>>
>> Acrylic plastic would be a particularly bad choice. It is very brittle,
>> and breaks easily. It has a very low melting point; the cells can easily
>> get hot enough to melt it. And it burns ferociously, leaving lots of
>> electrically conductive residue.
>>
>> Consider a metal case, so if there's a fire it won't easily spread to
>> the rest of the car. Where you need insulating materials, use something
>> that won't melt or burn, like UL listed bakelite (black), phenolic
>> (brown), or fiberglass (red or other colors), or FR4 printed circuit
>> board material (usually green).
>>
>>> 2. I also need to accommodate 5 Manzantia Mk3x8 BMS PCBs, preferably
>>> within the vac formed box.
>>
>> Recognize that the cells themselves, and the BMS boards generate heat.
>> You need a way to ventilate the box to get that heat out. At high
>> currents, the cells will generate a lot more heat than the BMS.
>>
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
>> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
>> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
>> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
And your lithium batteries would be dirty because?

Sincerely,
Mark Grasser


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of David Dymaxion
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 4:30 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking for advice on building battery box

Another thought is vents on the bottom allow you to wash off your batteries
with
water and let it drain out.



________________________________
From: joe <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, March 18, 2011 11:27:48 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking for advice on building battery box

That's why I didn't put vents on the bottom of the rear battery box on the
Mustang - didn't want water/salt intrusion. I doubt that the batteries will
get that hot, but...

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]



----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Wood" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking for advice on building battery box


> All good points thanks everyone.
>
> Just wondering though about water ingress if ventolation is at the
> bottom - Im intending to put the battery boxes under the vehicle
>
> Sent from iPhone
>
>
Mark Grasser <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> A couple more points.
>>
>> Use Sheet steel if possible. A Lithium fire will melt aluminum. Steel is
>> not
>> all that heavy. 20ga is 1.5 pounds per sq ft.
>>
>> Put the venting at the bottom of the box. Hydrogen is lighter than air
>> but
>> the gasses that Lithium batteries release in heavier then air. It acts
>> like
>> propane, settling at the bottom of the box. Without venting at the bottom

>> of
>> the box any gassing will settle there and you simply drive it around with
>> you. I think a lot of the fires we read about happen because people are
>> still building their battery boxes old school with venting at the top of
>> the
>> box.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Mark Grasser
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Lee Hart
>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 11:31 AM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking for advice on building battery box
>>
>> On 3/17/2011 5:31 AM, Andrew Wood wrote:
>>> I'm putting together a design for my battery box which will hold 40
>>> cylindrical Headway 16ah cells 40mm diameter 160mm long.
>>>
>>> I'm thinking of laser cutting two acrylicsheets with 40 holes in. The
>>> cells will lie horizontal with one sheet at each end to hold them in
>>> position. Once the connecting bars are fitted between the cells that
>>> should form quite a nice rigid unit.
>>
>> Lithium cells burn. You don't want to use more combustible materials to
>> contain them!
>>
>> High voltage electrical boxes are always made out of something that
>> won't burn; metal, bakelite, phenolic, fiberglass with fire retardant
>> binders, etc.
>>
>> Acrylic plastic would be a particularly bad choice. It is very brittle,
>> and breaks easily. It has a very low melting point; the cells can easily
>> get hot enough to melt it. And it burns ferociously, leaving lots of
>> electrically conductive residue.
>>
>> Consider a metal case, so if there's a fire it won't easily spread to
>> the rest of the car. Where you need insulating materials, use something
>> that won't melt or burn, like UL listed bakelite (black), phenolic
>> (brown), or fiberglass (red or other colors), or FR4 printed circuit
>> board material (usually green).
>>
>>> 2. I also need to accommodate 5 Manzantia Mk3x8 BMS PCBs, preferably
>>> within the vac formed box.
>>
>> Recognize that the cells themselves, and the BMS boards generate heat.
>> You need a way to ventilate the box to get that heat out. At high
>> currents, the cells will generate a lot more heat than the BMS.
>>
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
>> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
>> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
>> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Smoke from a fire, fire fighting foam from putting out the fire... On a less
dramatic note, dust (especially if you have been actively ventilating the box
with fresh air), you spit some electrolyte out of some cells (as I have done in
tests, if the leak is small a cell can continue to work just fine). If you
ventilate you might get condensation in the boxes, too.

That does bring up a good question. The electrolyte in a lithium battery must be
conductive for it to work -- I presume spitting some electrolyte would make a
conductive path? I'll have to check for that next time I overheat one.




________________________________
From: Mark Grasser <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, March 22, 2011 2:52:24 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking for advice on building battery box

And your lithium batteries would be dirty because?

Sincerely,
Mark Grasser


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of David Dymaxion
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 4:30 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking for advice on building battery box

Another thought is vents on the bottom allow you to wash off your batteries
with
water and let it drain out.



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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Can anyone point me in the direction of this 'paint on' insulating
material please.

Or at least give me a name of what its called. Ive never seen anything
like that before.

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
http://www.edesignaudio.com/index.php?cPath=1_24

Not sure if that's what
--
Sent from my DroidX with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Andrew Wood <[email protected]> wrote:

Can anyone point me in the direction of this 'paint on' insulating material please. Or at least give me a name of what its called. Ive never seen anything like that before._____________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only. | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected. | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/ | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
http://www.edesignaudio.com/index.php?cPath=1_24

Not sure if that's what you are after or not but it worked great on my ice mustang as sound deadner.

Stub
--
Sent from my DroidX with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Andrew Wood <[email protected]> wrote:

Can anyone point me in the direction of this 'paint on' insulating material please. Or at least give me a name of what its called. Ive never seen anything like that before._____________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only. | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected. | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/ | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Thanks Chris. Not fully decided whether to paint something like that on the inside of the box or use phenol sheet. I might use that stuff anyway to 'glue' the phenol to the alu box.

What thickness of aluminum do you think. I was thinking 3mm when I was thinking of steel but if I use aluminum it might need to be thicker. Total weight of whats going inside will be about 40kg.

Impact resistance isnt so critical as its going inside a rigid area of the spaceframe which should offer good protection.

Also with the thickness of phenol sheet used as an insulating layer inside. do you think 3mm is adequate or perhaps a couple of mm thicker?

Thanks
Andrew

Sent from iPhone

Chris Stephens <[email protected]> wrote:

> http://www.edesignaudio.com/index.php?cPath=1_24
>
> Not sure if that's what you are after or not but it worked great on my ice mustang as sound deadner.
>
> Stub
> --
> Sent from my DroidX with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
> Andrew Wood <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Can anyone point me in the direction of this 'paint on' insulating material please. Or at least give me a name of what its called. Ive never seen anything like that before._____________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only. | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected. | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/ | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Im no expert by far but have done a little welding and such. No idiot I guess I could say.
Anyway, by my guestimation, 3 mm aluminum is around 10 or 11 gauge and seems about right If you use say 1/2 inch bead roller every foot or so and don't. Try to span more than 3 feet.


--
Sent from my DroidX with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Andrew Wood <[email protected]> wrote:

Thanks Chris. Not fully decided whether to paint something like that on the inside of the box or use phenol sheet. I might use that stuff anyway to 'glue' the phenol to the alu box. What thickness of aluminum do you think. I was thinking 3mm when I was thinking of steel but if I use aluminum it might need to be thicker. Total weight of whats going inside will be about 40kg. Impact resistance isnt so critical as its going inside a rigid area of the spaceframe which should offer good protection. Also with the thickness of phenol sheet used as an insulating layer inside. do you think 3mm is adequate or perhaps a couple of mm thicker? Thanks Andrew Sent from iPhone
Chris Stephens <[email protected]> wrote: > http://www.edesignaudio.com/index.php?cPath=1_24 > > Not sure if that's what you are after or not but it worked great on my ice mustang as sound deadner. > > Stub > -- > Sent from my DroidX with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > Andrew Wood
<[email protected]> wrote: > > Can anyone point me in the direction of this 'paint on' insulating material please. Or at least give me a name of what its called. Ive never seen anything like that before._____________________________________________
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Need some way of fixing phenolic sheet to inside of box

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Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 4/3/2011 8:18 AM, Andrew Wood wrote:
>> Its not for electrical insulation. I just want a glue which can
>> withstand high temperatures.
>
> What are you gluing? I thought you were building a battery box.
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Assuming you are joining aluminum and phenolic, I would suggest a
methacrylate epoxy. Not just any epoxy. Specifically a methacrylate
epoxy.


Andrew Wood wrote:

> Need some way of fixing phenolic sheet to inside of box
>
> Sent from iPhone
>
> On 3 Apr 2011, at 18:41, Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 4/3/2011 8:18 AM, Andrew Wood wrote:
>>> Its not for electrical insulation. I just want a glue which can
>>> withstand high temperatures.
>>
>> What are you gluing? I thought you were building a battery box.
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
>> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
>> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
>> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
>> Cohen
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
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>
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Roger Heuckeroth
Advanced Carbon Systems
304 Blue Mountain Road
Saugerties, NY 12477
www.advancedcarbonsystems.com
Phone: 845-247-9089
Toll Free: 866-834-5674
Fax: 845-247-0441
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