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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
80 Degrees Celsius, sigh, formidable design consideration indeed.

It says it needs to keep that temperature to "output power" I wonder if it
keeps its charge whilst being in a state where it is unable to output power.
Making very efficient insulated enclosures is not really all that big of a
deal, with ceramic thermal paints and insulating material, a couple of lead
acid batteries I'm sure could heat a large enclosure filled with batteries
up to sufficient heat. A little bit of loss with a DC/DC converter to
recharge the lead acids from the main pack upon reaching heat, seems
reasonable to think 20% more range for same weight (including weight of
enclosure and heating components) would be easily attainable. Or perhaps the
heating would be entirely done from line power, it would have to be if the
batteries lose charge due to temperature. But then you'd be sacrificing
energy bills to always keep the car enclosures hot for increased range.

And it says nothing of how many cycles the batteries are theoretically or
practically good for. If you charge them whilst cold do they heat up? Or do
they have to be hot to input power as well as output?

Does anyone have an account with that science direct site or have plans to
blow 30$ on the article? Perhaps the answers are buried within.



Jeff Haskell <[email protected]> wrote:

> How much of the increased battery capacity is needed to run heaters to ke=
ep
> them up to temperature? :) Even if you only got 20% more range, they seem
> to
> be a lot more cost-effective.
>
> On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 22:38, brucedp4 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> > Double the energy density, Sumitomo to commercialize/market by 2015
> >
> >
> >
> http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/03/low-temperature-molten-salt-battery-ten.=
html
> > by bw at 3/05/2011 Mar 05 2011
> > Low temperature molten-salt battery ten times cheaper than lithium ion
> > by 2015
> >
> > Sumitomo Electric Industries Ltd., in partnership with Kyoto
> > University, has developed a lower temperature molten-salt rechargeable
> > battery that promises to cost only about 10% as much as lithium ion
> > batteries. Sumitomo intends to commercialize the battery around 2015
> > and market it as an alternative to lithium-ion batteries used in
> > automobiles and homes.
> >
> > The new battery uses sodium-containing substances melted at a high
> > temperature. The technology has been around for decades, but existing
> > molten-salt batteries require keeping the electrolyte in a liquid
> > state at a temperature higher than 300 C. Sumitomo Electric worked
> > with researchers at Kyoto University to develop a sodium material that
> > melts at 57 C.
> >
> > Having roughly double the energy density of a typical lithium ion
> > battery, the new battery would let an electric vehicle travel twice as
> > far as a lithium ion battery of the same size. Automakers would be
> > able to reduce the space taken up by batteries in their EVs. Molten-
> > salt batteries also boast high heat and impact resistance and are said
> > to be less susceptible to igniting than lithium ion batteries.
> >
> > Sodium is cheaper than lithium because it is in abundant supply. The
> > new battery is expected to be priced at about Y20,000 per kilowatt-
> > hour--about 10% as much as domestic lithium ion batteries and one-
> > fifth as much as Chinese products.
> >
> > But unlike a room-temperature lithium ion battery, the new battery
> > must be kept at 80 C to output power. So for the time being, Sumitomo
> > Electric envisions it being used in applications where it is operating
> > continuously, such as homes and electric buses. The company and the
> > university have applied to have the battery patented.
> >
> > Molten-salt batteries use highly conductive molten salts as an
> > electrolyte, and can offer high energy and power densities. The ZEBRA
> > battery is an example of a molten salt battery. A drawback to the
> > general class of molten salt batteries has been high operating
> > temperatures. []
> >
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.ytwhw.com/2011/0304/New-Sumitomo-Electric-Battery-90-Cheaper-T=
han-Lithium-Ion-Nikkei.html
> > New Sumitomo Electric Battery 90% Cheaper Than Lithium Ion
> > Nikkei 2011-03-04 ... Sumitomo Electric worked with researchers at
> > Kyoto University to develop a sodium material that melts at 57 C ...
> >
> > Automakers would be
> > able to reduce the space taken up by batteries in their EVs ... boast
> > high heat and impact resistance and are said to be less susceptible
> > to igniting than lithium ion batteries.
> >
> > Sodium is cheaper than lithium because it is in abundant supply. The
> > new battery is expected to be priced at about Y20,000 per kilowatt-
> > hour--about 10% as much as domestic lithium ion batteries and one-
> > fifth as much as Chinese products.
> >
> > But unlike a room-temperature lithium ion battery, the new battery
> > must be kept at 80 C to output power. So for the time being, Sumitomo
> > Electric envisions it being used in applications where it is operating
> > continuously, such as homes and electric buses. The company and the
> > university have applied to have the battery patented.
> > [(C) ytwhw.com All rights reserved]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=3DArticleURL&_udi=3DB6TG0-4CW3RV=
Y-3&_user=3D10&_coverDate=3D10%2F15%2F2004&_rdoc=3D1&_fmt=3Dhigh&_orig=3Dga=
teway&_origin=3Dgateway&_sort=3Dd&_docanchor=3D&view=3Dc&_searchStrId=3D167=
4075134&_rerunOrigin=3Dgoogle&_acct=3DC000050221&_version=3D1&_urlVersion=
=3D0&_userid=3D10&md5=3D4a58602ae7a2c9367585df6f5dc8a28e&searchtype=3Da
> > Electrochimica Acta
> > Volume 49, Issue 26, 15 October 2004, Pages 4583-4588
> > doi:10.1016/j.electacta.2004.04.041
> >
> > Room temperature molten salts as lithium battery electrolyte
> > B=E9atrice Garcia, Serge Lavall=E9ea, G=E9rald Perrona, Christophe Mich=
ota
> > and Michel Armanda
> >
> > a Laboratoire International sur les Mat=E9riaux =C9lectroactifs,
> > CNRS/Universit=E9 de Montr=E9al, UMR 2289, D=E9partement de Chimie,
> > Universit=E9 de Montr=E9al, CP 6128, Succursale centre- ville, Montr=E9=
al,
> > Que., Canada H3C 3J7
> > Received 9 December 2003;
> > revised 16 March 2004;
> > accepted 18 April 2004.
> > Available online 25 July 2004.
> >
> > Abstract
> > In the present study, are reported investigations obtained with the
> > room temperature molten salt (RTMS) ethyl-methyl-imidazolium
> > bis-(trifluoromethanesulfonyl)-imide (EMI-TFSI) in order to use it as
> > solvent in lithium battery. The thermal stability, viscosity,
> > conductivity and electrochemical properties are presented. A solution
> > of 1m lithium bis-(trifluoromethanesulfonyl)-imide (LiTFSI) in
> > EMI-TFSI has been used to test the electrolyte in a battery with
> > LiCoO2 and Li4Ti5O12 as respectively cathode and anode materials.
> > Cycling and power measurements have been obtained. The results have
> > been compared with those obtained with a molten salt formulated with
> > a different anion, BF4- and with a conventional liquid organic
> > solvent EC/DMC containing LiTFSI. The 1m LiTFSI/EMI-TFSI electrolyte
> > provides the best cycling performance: a capacity up to 106 mAh g-1
> > is still delivered after 200 cycles, with 1C rate at 25 =B0C ...
> >
> > 1. Introduction
> > 2. Experimental
> > 3. Results and discussion
> > 3.1. Thermal stability
> > 3.2. Viscosity
> > 3.3. Conductivity
> > 3.4. Electrochemical stability
> > 3.5. Battery tests
> > 4. Conclusion
> > References
> > ... [Copyright =A9 2011 Elsevier B.V. All rights reserved.]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > {brucedp.150m.com}
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> >
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Low-temp-mol=
ten-salt-battery-x10-cheaper-than-lithium-ion-tp3347400p3347400.html
> > Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> > Nabble.com.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
How much of the battery energy gets "wasted" keeping the battery warm?
Here's a guess:

Let's start with a hypothetical battery pack. You want 20kWh. Energy
density for LiFePo is somewhere around 125 Wh/kg (chime in if you have a
better number). Thus, your 20kWh pack would weigh 160kg.

According to Sumitomo, their cells will have roughly double the energy
density. That means your hypothetical pack would weigh 80kg (wow, that
would be awesome!). Ok, a lot of assumptions. More coming. You'll see
where I'm going.

Next is to guess the specific energy of the Sumitomo cells. Since they are
to be molton (another broad assumption coming), I'm going to use the
specific energy of water: 1 calorie to heat 1g of water 1 deg celcuis. I
have no idea how close this would be to a molten salt - anyone else care to
opine?

Last assumption: let's say we can insulate the battery so that it looses
about 5 deg celcius per hour when near its operating temperature of 80.

Given all that, the calories it would loose per hour (and thus need to
replace) =3D 5deg * 80kg =3D 400kcal =3D 400,000 cal.
At 4.18J / cal, that's 400,000 * 4.18 =3D 1,672kJ.
1J =3D 1Ws (watt*second). So, 1,672kJ =3D 1,672kWs. Convert to hours: =3D
1672/3600 =3D .46kWh.

All that means you would need .46kWh per hour, or .46kW, to keep the battery
at 80 deg cel. For a 20kWh pack, that means it could heat itself for 20kWh
/ .46kW =3D 43,000 hours. =


I have to admit, this number seems too large. Anyone care to verify my
calcs? At any rate, if my assumptions are even within 10% accuracy, heating
won't be an issue.

Peri Hartman



Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Jeff Haskell
Sent: 11 March, 2011 4:22 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: brucedp4
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Low temp molten-salt battery x10 cheaper than
lithium-ion

How much of the increased battery capacity is needed to run heaters to keep
them up to temperature? :) Even if you only got 20% more range, they seem to
be a lot more cost-effective.

brucedp4 <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> Double the energy density, Sumitomo to commercialize/market by 2015
>
>
> http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/03/low-temperature-molten-salt-battery-t
> en.html
> by bw at 3/05/2011 Mar 05 2011
> Low temperature molten-salt battery ten times cheaper than lithium ion =

> by 2015
>
> Sumitomo Electric Industries Ltd., in partnership with Kyoto =

> University, has developed a lower temperature molten-salt rechargeable =

> battery that promises to cost only about 10% as much as lithium ion =

> batteries. Sumitomo intends to commercialize the battery around 2015 =

> and market it as an alternative to lithium-ion batteries used in =

> automobiles and homes.
>
> The new battery uses sodium-containing substances melted at a high =

> temperature. The technology has been around for decades, but existing =

> molten-salt batteries require keeping the electrolyte in a liquid =

> state at a temperature higher than 300 C. Sumitomo Electric worked =

> with researchers at Kyoto University to develop a sodium material that =

> melts at 57 C.
>
> Having roughly double the energy density of a typical lithium ion =

> battery, the new battery would let an electric vehicle travel twice as =

> far as a lithium ion battery of the same size. Automakers would be =

> able to reduce the space taken up by batteries in their EVs. Molten- =

> salt batteries also boast high heat and impact resistance and are said =

> to be less susceptible to igniting than lithium ion batteries.
>
> Sodium is cheaper than lithium because it is in abundant supply. The =

> new battery is expected to be priced at about Y20,000 per kilowatt- =

> hour--about 10% as much as domestic lithium ion batteries and one- =

> fifth as much as Chinese products.
>
> But unlike a room-temperature lithium ion battery, the new battery =

> must be kept at 80 C to output power. So for the time being, Sumitomo =

> Electric envisions it being used in applications where it is operating =

> continuously, such as homes and electric buses. The company and the =

> university have applied to have the battery patented.
>
> Molten-salt batteries use highly conductive molten salts as an =

> electrolyte, and can offer high energy and power densities. The ZEBRA =

> battery is an example of a molten salt battery. A drawback to the =

> general class of molten salt batteries has been high operating =

> temperatures. []
>
>
>
> http://www.ytwhw.com/2011/0304/New-Sumitomo-Electric-Battery-90-Cheape
> r-Than-Lithium-Ion-Nikkei.html New Sumitomo Electric Battery 90% =

> Cheaper Than Lithium Ion Nikkei 2011-03-04 ... Sumitomo Electric =

> worked with researchers at Kyoto University to develop a sodium =

> material that melts at 57 C ...
>
> Automakers would be
> able to reduce the space taken up by batteries in their EVs ... boast =

> high heat and impact resistance and are said to be less susceptible to =

> igniting than lithium ion batteries.
>
> Sodium is cheaper than lithium because it is in abundant supply. The =

> new battery is expected to be priced at about Y20,000 per kilowatt- =

> hour--about 10% as much as domestic lithium ion batteries and one- =

> fifth as much as Chinese products.
>
> But unlike a room-temperature lithium ion battery, the new battery =

> must be kept at 80 C to output power. So for the time being, Sumitomo =

> Electric envisions it being used in applications where it is operating =

> continuously, such as homes and electric buses. The company and the =

> university have applied to have the battery patented.
> [(C) ytwhw.com All rights reserved]
>
>
>
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=3DArticleURL&_udi=3DB6TG0-4CW3RVY
> -3&_user=3D10&_coverDate=3D10%2F15%2F2004&_rdoc=3D1&_fmt=3Dhigh&_orig=3Dg=
ateway&
> _origin=3Dgateway&_sort=3Dd&_docanchor=3D&view=3Dc&_searchStrId=3D1674075=
134&_re
> runOrigin=3Dgoogle&_acct=3DC000050221&_version=3D1&_urlVersion=3D0&_useri=
d=3D10&
> md5=3D4a58602ae7a2c9367585df6f5dc8a28e&searchtype=3Da
> Electrochimica Acta
> Volume 49, Issue 26, 15 October 2004, Pages 4583-4588
> doi:10.1016/j.electacta.2004.04.041
>
> Room temperature molten salts as lithium battery electrolyte B=E9atrice =

> Garcia, Serge Lavall=E9ea, G=E9rald Perrona, Christophe Michota and Miche=
l =

> Armanda
>
> a Laboratoire International sur les Mat=E9riaux =C9lectroactifs, =

> CNRS/Universit=E9 de Montr=E9al, UMR 2289, D=E9partement de Chimie, =

> Universit=E9 de Montr=E9al, CP 6128, Succursale centre- ville, Montr=E9al=
, =

> Que., Canada H3C 3J7 Received 9 December 2003; revised 16 March 2004; =

> accepted 18 April 2004.
> Available online 25 July 2004.
>
> Abstract
> In the present study, are reported investigations obtained with the =

> room temperature molten salt (RTMS) ethyl-methyl-imidazolium =

> bis-(trifluoromethanesulfonyl)-imide (EMI-TFSI) in order to use it as =

> solvent in lithium battery. The thermal stability, viscosity, =

> conductivity and electrochemical properties are presented. A solution =

> of 1m lithium bis-(trifluoromethanesulfonyl)-imide (LiTFSI) in =

> EMI-TFSI has been used to test the electrolyte in a battery with
> LiCoO2 and Li4Ti5O12 as respectively cathode and anode materials.
> Cycling and power measurements have been obtained. The results have =

> been compared with those obtained with a molten salt formulated with a =

> different anion, BF4- and with a conventional liquid organic solvent =

> EC/DMC containing LiTFSI. The 1m LiTFSI/EMI-TFSI electrolyte provides =

> the best cycling performance: a capacity up to 106 mAh g-1 is still =

> delivered after 200 cycles, with 1C rate at 25 =B0C ...
>
> 1. Introduction
> 2. Experimental
> 3. Results and discussion
> 3.1. Thermal stability
> 3.2. Viscosity
> 3.3. Conductivity
> 3.4. Electrochemical stability
> 3.5. Battery tests
> 4. Conclusion
> References
> ... [Copyright =A9 2011 Elsevier B.V. All rights reserved.]
>
>
>
>
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Low-temp-
> molten-salt-battery-x10-cheaper-than-lithium-ion-tp3347400p3347400.htm
> l Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive =

> at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
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Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Peri Hartman wrote:

> How much of the battery energy gets "wasted" keeping the battery warm?
> Here's a guess:

> All that means you would need .46kWh per hour, or .46kW, to
> keep the battery at 80 deg cel.

Your guess is waaay too high, I expect.

I'm sure it is too early in the development of this low-temperature molten battery technology to know what the heat loss/energy requirement of a commercial version would be, however, I think we can get a reasonable idea by looking at what the Zebra high-temperature molten battery requires.

The Zebra 17.8kWh battery loses less than 110W when at 270C internal temperature. Heat loss being proportional to the difference between battery internal temperature and the ambient, we can expect that a similarly constructed 80C battery would require about 1/3 this much energy to maintain its operating temperature; about 40W.

40W = 0.04kW * 24h = 0.96kWh/day in standby losses. A 20kWh battery would be completely run down in about 20 days if left with the heater running and not plugged into AC. Think of the heating requirement as equivalent to a high sel-discharge rate. This characteristic makes these types of battery most suited to applications where the battery is used daily; taxis, buses, commuter vehicles, etc. When you leave the vehicle parked for longer periods, you simply turn off the heater and let the battery freeze. When you return and thaw the battery, it will be in the same state of charge that it was when you parked it.

As to some of the other questions posed, it is likely that this low temperature molten battery will be similar in behaviour to the high-temperature Zebra. That is, it must be molten to charge or discharge, and maintains its state of charge indefinitely while in the frozen state. I don't have a spec for the power of the heater in the Zebra battery, but it is said to take 24hr to bring the 195kg battery to operating temperature from ambient.

Cheers,

Roger.

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Registered
Joined
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks Roger, some good datas there. If indeed they can maintain the charge
whilst frozen there could really be some potential here.

Roger Stockton <[email protected]>wrote:

> Peri Hartman wrote:
>
> > How much of the battery energy gets "wasted" keeping the battery warm?
> > Here's a guess:
>
> > All that means you would need .46kWh per hour, or .46kW, to
> > keep the battery at 80 deg cel.
>
> Your guess is waaay too high, I expect.
>
> I'm sure it is too early in the development of this low-temperature molten
> battery technology to know what the heat loss/energy requirement of a
> commercial version would be, however, I think we can get a reasonable idea
> by looking at what the Zebra high-temperature molten battery requires.
>
> The Zebra 17.8kWh battery loses less than 110W when at 270C internal
> temperature. Heat loss being proportional to the difference between battery
> internal temperature and the ambient, we can expect that a similarly
> constructed 80C battery would require about 1/3 this much energy to maintain
> its operating temperature; about 40W.
>
> 40W = 0.04kW * 24h = 0.96kWh/day in standby losses. A 20kWh battery would
> be completely run down in about 20 days if left with the heater running and
> not plugged into AC. Think of the heating requirement as equivalent to a
> high sel-discharge rate. This characteristic makes these types of battery
> most suited to applications where the battery is used daily; taxis, buses,
> commuter vehicles, etc. When you leave the vehicle parked for longer
> periods, you simply turn off the heater and let the battery freeze. When
> you return and thaw the battery, it will be in the same state of charge that
> it was when you parked it.
>
> As to some of the other questions posed, it is likely that this low
> temperature molten battery will be similar in behaviour to the
> high-temperature Zebra. That is, it must be molten to charge or discharge,
> and maintains its state of charge indefinitely while in the frozen state. I
> don't have a spec for the power of the heater in the Zebra battery, but it
> is said to take 24hr to bring the 195kg battery to operating temperature
> from ambient.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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Joined
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Your calculation actually comes out to 43 hours, not 43,000 hours.....

Peri Hartman <[email protected]> wrote:
> How much of the battery energy gets "wasted" keeping the battery warm?
> Here's a guess:
>
> Let's start with a hypothetical battery pack. You want 20kWh. Energy
> density for LiFePo is somewhere around 125 Wh/kg (chime in if you have a
> better number). Thus, your 20kWh pack would weigh 160kg.
>
> According to Sumitomo, their cells will have roughly double the energy
> density. That means your hypothetical pack would weigh 80kg (wow, that
> would be awesome!). Ok, a lot of assumptions. More coming. You'l=
l see
> where I'm going.
>
> Next is to guess the specific energy of the Sumitomo cells. Since they=
are
> to be molton (another broad assumption coming), I'm going to use the
> specific energy of water: 1 calorie to heat 1g of water 1 deg celcuis. =
I
> have no idea how close this would be to a molten salt - anyone else care =
to
> opine?
>
> Last assumption: let's say we can insulate the battery so that it looses
> about 5 deg celcius per hour when near its operating temperature of 80.
>
> Given all that, the calories it would loose per hour (and thus need to
> replace) =3D 5deg * 80kg =3D 400kcal =3D 400,000 cal.
> At 4.18J / cal, that's 400,000 * 4.18 =3D 1,672kJ.
> 1J =3D 1Ws (watt*second). So, 1,672kJ =3D 1,672kWs. Convert to hours: =
=3D
> 1672/3600 =3D .46kWh.
>
> All that means you would need .46kWh per hour, or .46kW, to keep the batt=
ery
> at 80 deg cel. For a 20kWh pack, that means it could heat itself for 2=
0kWh
> / .46kW =3D 43,000 hours.
>
> I have to admit, this number seems too large. Anyone care to verify my
> calcs? At any rate, if my assumptions are even within 10% accuracy, he=
ating
> won't be an issue.
>
> Peri Hartman
>
>
>
> Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Beh=
alf
> Of Jeff Haskell
> Sent: 11 March, 2011 4:22 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: brucedp4
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Low temp molten-salt battery x10 cheaper than
> lithium-ion
>
> How much of the increased battery capacity is needed to run heaters to ke=
ep
> them up to temperature? :) Even if you only got 20% more range, they seem=
to
> be a lot more cost-effective.
>
> On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 22:38, brucedp4 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> Double the energy density, Sumitomo to commercialize/market by 2015
>>
>>
>> http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/03/low-temperature-molten-salt-battery-t
>> en.html
>> by bw at 3/05/2011 Mar 05 2011
>> Low temperature molten-salt battery ten times cheaper than lithium ion
>> by 2015
>>
>> Sumitomo Electric Industries Ltd., in partnership with Kyoto
>> University, has developed a lower temperature molten-salt rechargeable
>> battery that promises to cost only about 10% as much as lithium ion
>> batteries. Sumitomo intends to commercialize the battery around 2015
>> and market it as an alternative to lithium-ion batteries used in
>> automobiles and homes.
>>
>> The new battery uses sodium-containing substances melted at a high
>> temperature. The technology has been around for decades, but existing
>> molten-salt batteries require keeping the electrolyte in a liquid
>> state at a temperature higher than 300 C. Sumitomo Electric worked
>> with researchers at Kyoto University to develop a sodium material that
>> melts at 57 C.
>>
>> Having roughly double the energy density of a typical lithium ion
>> battery, the new battery would let an electric vehicle travel twice as
>> far as a lithium ion battery of the same size. Automakers would be
>> able to reduce the space taken up by batteries in their EVs. Molten-
>> salt batteries also boast high heat and impact resistance and are said
>> to be less susceptible to igniting than lithium ion batteries.
>>
>> Sodium is cheaper than lithium because it is in abundant supply. The
>> new battery is expected to be priced at about Y20,000 per kilowatt-
>> hour--about 10% as much as domestic lithium ion batteries and one-
>> fifth as much as Chinese products.
>>
>> But unlike a room-temperature lithium ion battery, the new battery
>> must be kept at 80 C to output power. So for the time being, Sumitomo
>> Electric envisions it being used in applications where it is operating
>> continuously, such as homes and electric buses. The company and the
>> university have applied to have the battery patented.
>>
>> Molten-salt batteries use highly conductive molten salts as an
>> electrolyte, and can offer high energy and power densities. The ZEBRA
>> battery is an example of a molten salt battery. A drawback to the
>> general class of molten salt batteries has been high operating
>> temperatures. []
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.ytwhw.com/2011/0304/New-Sumitomo-Electric-Battery-90-Cheape
>> r-Than-Lithium-Ion-Nikkei.html New Sumitomo Electric Battery 90%
>> Cheaper Than Lithium Ion Nikkei 2011-03-04 ... Sumitomo Electric
>> worked with researchers at Kyoto University to develop a sodium
>> material that melts at 57 C ...
>>
>> Automakers would be
>> able to reduce the space taken up by batteries in their EVs ... boast
>> high heat and impact resistance and are said to be less susceptible to
>> igniting than lithium ion batteries.
>>
>> Sodium is cheaper than lithium because it is in abundant supply. The
>> new battery is expected to be priced at about Y20,000 per kilowatt-
>> hour--about 10% as much as domestic lithium ion batteries and one-
>> fifth as much as Chinese products.
>>
>> But unlike a room-temperature lithium ion battery, the new battery
>> must be kept at 80 C to output power. So for the time being, Sumitomo
>> Electric envisions it being used in applications where it is operating
>> continuously, such as homes and electric buses. The company and the
>> university have applied to have the battery patented.
>> [(C) ytwhw.com All rights reserved]
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=3DArticleURL&_udi=3DB6TG0-4CW3R=
VY
>> -3&_user=3D10&_coverDate=3D10%2F15%2F2004&_rdoc=3D1&_fmt=3Dhigh&> l Sent=
from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive
>> at Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
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> hment.html
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>
>
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_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
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·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks. Acutally I saw that a bit after I sent the message. Always happens
that way :)
Peri =


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: 11 March, 2011 1:55 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Low temp molten-salt battery x10 cheaper than
lithium-ion

Your calculation actually comes out to 43 hours, not 43,000 hours.....

Peri Hartman <[email protected]> wrote:
> How much of the battery energy gets "wasted" keeping the battery warm?
> Here's a guess:
>
> Let's start with a hypothetical battery pack. You want 20kWh. Energ=
y =

> density for LiFePo is somewhere around 125 Wh/kg (chime in if you have =

> a better number). Thus, your 20kWh pack would weigh 160kg.
>
> According to Sumitomo, their cells will have roughly double the energy =

> density. That means your hypothetical pack would weigh 80kg (wow, =

> that would be awesome!). Ok, a lot of assumptions. More coming.
> You'll see where I'm going.
>
> Next is to guess the specific energy of the Sumitomo cells. Since =

> they are to be molton (another broad assumption coming), I'm going to =

> use the specific energy of water: 1 calorie to heat 1g of water 1 deg =

> celcuis. I have no idea how close this would be to a molten salt - =

> anyone else care to opine?
>
> Last assumption: let's say we can insulate the battery so that it =

> looses about 5 deg celcius per hour when near its operating temperature of
80.
>
> Given all that, the calories it would loose per hour (and thus need to
> replace) =3D 5deg * 80kg =3D 400kcal =3D 400,000 cal.
> At 4.18J / cal, that's 400,000 * 4.18 =3D 1,672kJ.
> 1J =3D 1Ws (watt*second). So, 1,672kJ =3D 1,672kWs. Convert to hours: =
=3D =

> 1672/3600 =3D .46kWh.
>
> All that means you would need .46kWh per hour, or .46kW, to keep the =

> battery at 80 deg cel. For a 20kWh pack, that means it could heat =

> itself for 20kWh / .46kW =3D 43,000 hours.
>
> I have to admit, this number seems too large. Anyone care to verify =

> my calcs? At any rate, if my assumptions are even within 10% =

> accuracy, heating won't be an issue.
>
> Peri Hartman
>
>
>
> Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =

> Behalf Of Jeff Haskell
> Sent: 11 March, 2011 4:22 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: brucedp4
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Low temp molten-salt battery x10 cheaper than =

> lithium-ion
>
> How much of the increased battery capacity is needed to run heaters to =

> keep them up to temperature? :) Even if you only got 20% more range, =

> they seem to be a lot more cost-effective.
>
> On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 22:38, brucedp4 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> Double the energy density, Sumitomo to commercialize/market by 2015
>>
>>
>> http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/03/low-temperature-molten-salt-battery-
>> t
>> en.html
>> by bw at 3/05/2011 Mar 05 2011
>> Low temperature molten-salt battery ten times cheaper than lithium =

>> ion by 2015
>>
>> Sumitomo Electric Industries Ltd., in partnership with Kyoto =

>> University, has developed a lower temperature molten-salt =

>> rechargeable battery that promises to cost only about 10% as much as =

>> lithium ion batteries. Sumitomo intends to commercialize the battery =

>> around 2015 and market it as an alternative to lithium-ion batteries =

>> used in automobiles and homes.
>>
>> The new battery uses sodium-containing substances melted at a high =

>> temperature. The technology has been around for decades, but existing =

>> molten-salt batteries require keeping the electrolyte in a liquid =

>> state at a temperature higher than 300 C. Sumitomo Electric worked =

>> with researchers at Kyoto University to develop a sodium material =

>> that melts at 57 C.
>>
>> Having roughly double the energy density of a typical lithium ion =

>> battery, the new battery would let an electric vehicle travel twice =

>> as far as a lithium ion battery of the same size. Automakers would be =

>> able to reduce the space taken up by batteries in their EVs. Molten- =

>> salt batteries also boast high heat and impact resistance and are =

>> said to be less susceptible to igniting than lithium ion batteries.
>>
>> Sodium is cheaper than lithium because it is in abundant supply. The =

>> new battery is expected to be priced at about Y20,000 per kilowatt- =

>> hour--about 10% as much as domestic lithium ion batteries and one- =

>> fifth as much as Chinese products.
>>
>> But unlike a room-temperature lithium ion battery, the new battery =

>> must be kept at 80 C to output power. So for the time being, Sumitomo =

>> Electric envisions it being used in applications where it is =

>> operating continuously, such as homes and electric buses. The company =

>> and the university have applied to have the battery patented.
>>
>> Molten-salt batteries use highly conductive molten salts as an =

>> electrolyte, and can offer high energy and power densities. The ZEBRA =

>> battery is an example of a molten salt battery. A drawback to the =

>> general class of molten salt batteries has been high operating =

>> temperatures. []
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.ytwhw.com/2011/0304/New-Sumitomo-Electric-Battery-90-Cheap
>> e r-Than-Lithium-Ion-Nikkei.html New Sumitomo Electric Battery 90% =

>> Cheaper Than Lithium Ion Nikkei 2011-03-04 ... Sumitomo Electric =

>> worked with researchers at Kyoto University to develop a sodium =

>> material that melts at 57 C ...
>>
>> Automakers would be
>> able to reduce the space taken up by batteries in their EVs ... boast =

>> high heat and impact resistance and are said to be less susceptible =

>> to igniting than lithium ion batteries.
>>
>> Sodium is cheaper than lithium because it is in abundant supply. The =

>> new battery is expected to be priced at about Y20,000 per kilowatt- =

>> hour--about 10% as much as domestic lithium ion batteries and one- =

>> fifth as much as Chinese products.
>>
>> But unlike a room-temperature lithium ion battery, the new battery =

>> must be kept at 80 C to output power. So for the time being, Sumitomo =

>> Electric envisions it being used in applications where it is =

>> operating continuously, such as homes and electric buses. The company =

>> and the university have applied to have the battery patented.
>> [(C) ytwhw.com All rights reserved]
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=3DArticleURL&_udi=3DB6TG0-4CW3RV
>> Y -3&_user=3D10&_coverDate=3D10%2F15%2F2004&_rdoc=3D1&_fmt=3Dhigh&> l Se=
nt =

>> from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at =

>> Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>>
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
What's 3 decimal places among friends? :)

Peri Hartman <[email protected]> wrote:

> Thanks. Acutally I saw that a bit after I sent the message. Always
> happens
> that way :)
> Peri
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf
> Of Zeke Yewdall
> Sent: 11 March, 2011 1:55 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Low temp molten-salt battery x10 cheaper than
> lithium-ion
>
> Your calculation actually comes out to 43 hours, not 43,000 hours.....
>
> On Friday, March 11, 2011, Peri Hartman <[email protected]> wrote:
> > How much of the battery energy gets "wasted" keeping the battery warm?
> > Here's a guess:
> >
> > Let's start with a hypothetical battery pack. You want 20kWh. Energy
> > density for LiFePo is somewhere around 125 Wh/kg (chime in if you have
> > a better number). Thus, your 20kWh pack would weigh 160kg.
> >
> > According to Sumitomo, their cells will have roughly double the energy
> > density. That means your hypothetical pack would weigh 80kg (wow,
> > that would be awesome!). Ok, a lot of assumptions. More coming.
> > You'll see where I'm going.
> >
> > Next is to guess the specific energy of the Sumitomo cells. Since
> > they are to be molton (another broad assumption coming), I'm going to
> > use the specific energy of water: 1 calorie to heat 1g of water 1 deg
> > celcuis. I have no idea how close this would be to a molten salt -
> > anyone else care to opine?
> >
> > Last assumption: let's say we can insulate the battery so that it
> > looses about 5 deg celcius per hour when near its operating temperature
> of
> 80.
> >
> > Given all that, the calories it would loose per hour (and thus need to
> > replace) = 5deg * 80kg = 400kcal = 400,000 cal.
> > At 4.18J / cal, that's 400,000 * 4.18 = 1,672kJ.
> > 1J = 1Ws (watt*second). So, 1,672kJ = 1,672kWs. Convert to hours: =
> > 1672/3600 = .46kWh.
> >
> > All that means you would need .46kWh per hour, or .46kW, to keep the
> > battery at 80 deg cel. For a 20kWh pack, that means it could heat
> > itself for 20kWh / .46kW = 43,000 hours.
> >
> > I have to admit, this number seems too large. Anyone care to verify
> > my calcs? At any rate, if my assumptions are even within 10%
> > accuracy, heating won't be an issue.
> >
> > Peri Hartman
> >
> >
> >
> > Message-----
> > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> > Behalf Of Jeff Haskell
> > Sent: 11 March, 2011 4:22 AM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Cc: brucedp4
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Low temp molten-salt battery x10 cheaper than
> > lithium-ion
> >
> > How much of the increased battery capacity is needed to run heaters to
> > keep them up to temperature? :) Even if you only got 20% more range,
> > they seem to be a lot more cost-effective.
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 22:38, brucedp4 <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Double the energy density, Sumitomo to commercialize/market by 2015
> >>
> >>
> >> http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/03/low-temperature-molten-salt-battery-
> >> t
> >> en.html
> >> by bw at 3/05/2011 Mar 05 2011
> >> Low temperature molten-salt battery ten times cheaper than lithium
> >> ion by 2015
> >>
> >> Sumitomo Electric Industries Ltd., in partnership with Kyoto
> >> University, has developed a lower temperature molten-salt
> >> rechargeable battery that promises to cost only about 10% as much as
> >> lithium ion batteries. Sumitomo intends to commercialize the battery
> >> around 2015 and market it as an alternative to lithium-ion batteries
> >> used in automobiles and homes.
> >>
> >> The new battery uses sodium-containing substances melted at a high
> >> temperature. The technology has been around for decades, but existing
> >> molten-salt batteries require keeping the electrolyte in a liquid
> >> state at a temperature higher than 300 C. Sumitomo Electric worked
> >> with researchers at Kyoto University to develop a sodium material
> >> that melts at 57 C.
> >>
> >> Having roughly double the energy density of a typical lithium ion
> >> battery, the new battery would let an electric vehicle travel twice
> >> as far as a lithium ion battery of the same size. Automakers would be
> >> able to reduce the space taken up by batteries in their EVs. Molten-
> >> salt batteries also boast high heat and impact resistance and are
> >> said to be less susceptible to igniting than lithium ion batteries.
> >>
> >> Sodium is cheaper than lithium because it is in abundant supply. The
> >> new battery is expected to be priced at about Y20,000 per kilowatt-
> >> hour--about 10% as much as domestic lithium ion batteries and one-
> >> fifth as much as Chinese products.
> >>
> >> But unlike a room-temperature lithium ion battery, the new battery
> >> must be kept at 80 C to output power. So for the time being, Sumitomo
> >> Electric envisions it being used in applications where it is
> >> operating continuously, such as homes and electric buses. The company
> >> and the university have applied to have the battery patented.
> >>
> >> Molten-salt batteries use highly conductive molten salts as an
> >> electrolyte, and can offer high energy and power densities. The ZEBRA
> >> battery is an example of a molten salt battery. A drawback to the
> >> general class of molten salt batteries has been high operating
> >> temperatures. []
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> http://www.ytwhw.com/2011/0304/New-Sumitomo-Electric-Battery-90-Cheap
> >> e r-Than-Lithium-Ion-Nikkei.html New Sumitomo Electric Battery 90%
> >> Cheaper Than Lithium Ion Nikkei 2011-03-04 ... Sumitomo Electric
> >> worked with researchers at Kyoto University to develop a sodium
> >> material that melts at 57 C ...
> >>
> >> Automakers would be
> >> able to reduce the space taken up by batteries in their EVs ... boast
> >> high heat and impact resistance and are said to be less susceptible
> >> to igniting than lithium ion batteries.
> >>
> >> Sodium is cheaper than lithium because it is in abundant supply. The
> >> new battery is expected to be priced at about Y20,000 per kilowatt-
> >> hour--about 10% as much as domestic lithium ion batteries and one-
> >> fifth as much as Chinese products.
> >>
> >> But unlike a room-temperature lithium ion battery, the new battery
> >> must be kept at 80 C to output power. So for the time being, Sumitomo
> >> Electric envisions it being used in applications where it is
> >> operating continuously, such as homes and electric buses. The company
> >> and the university have applied to have the battery patented.
> >> [(C) ytwhw.com All rights reserved]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TG0-4CW3RV
> >> Y -3&_user=10&_coverDate=10%2F15%2F2004&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&> l Sent
> >> from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> >> Nabble.com.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> >> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> >> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> >>
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I recently say a paper that said a ZEBRA will use 14% of it's capacity to
keep itself warm in a day. Wiki says ZEBRA has 18% self discharge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_battery#ZEBRA_battery

Peri Hartman wrote:
>
> How much of the battery energy gets "wasted" keeping the battery warm?
>
>


--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Low-temp-molten-salt-battery-x10-cheaper-than-lithium-ion-tp3347400p3350665.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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