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[EVDL] Manzanita failure

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E
I charged at an RV park for the first time yesterday. I charged for about 10
minutes just to test it out. I charged there again today, planning to fully
charge to extend my range. I plugged into a NEMA14-50, turned on the
Manzanita PFC30 switch, and adjusted the charge current up to 28ADC (~120V
pack, so about 14A from the 50A AC outlet). The TBS gauge read 41.1Ah used,
everything looked good, so I went for a walk and got a cup of coffee,
expecting it to require about 1 1/2 hour to charge. When I returned about 1
hour later the charger was off and the TBS read 41.0Ah used, so it must have
kicked off almost immediately after I walked away. I turned the charger
current knob down to zero, and flipped the charger switch back on. There
was a loud clack and it immediately flipped back off. I have been using
this charger on a 240V outlet at home for almost 1 year, and had charged
about an hour earlier at home before leaving. When I returned home I tried
it again with the same result, and it kicked off the 50A GFCI breaker on the
wall. I pulled an interconnect wire on a cell level board and the minibms
alarmed, so it is still working fine. The EKM meter on the AC input to the
charger is still working fine also. Any ideas what happened?
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E
Hello Tom,

If the 50 amp breaker on the charger trip, then it could be a bad breaker or
a internal short in a wire or device.

I would first contact Rich Rudman at Manzanito Micro - Email is:

[email protected]

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "tomw" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 11:44 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Manzanita failure


>
> I charged at an RV park for the first time yesterday. I charged for about
> 10
> minutes just to test it out. I charged there again today, planning to
> fully
> charge to extend my range. I plugged into a NEMA14-50, turned on the
> Manzanita PFC30 switch, and adjusted the charge current up to 28ADC (~120V
> pack, so about 14A from the 50A AC outlet). The TBS gauge read 41.1Ah
> used,
> everything looked good, so I went for a walk and got a cup of coffee,
> expecting it to require about 1 1/2 hour to charge. When I returned about
> 1
> hour later the charger was off and the TBS read 41.0Ah used, so it must
> have
> kicked off almost immediately after I walked away. I turned the charger
> current knob down to zero, and flipped the charger switch back on. There
> was a loud clack and it immediately flipped back off. I have been using
> this charger on a 240V outlet at home for almost 1 year, and had charged
> about an hour earlier at home before leaving. When I returned home I
> tried
> it again with the same result, and it kicked off the 50A GFCI breaker on
> the
> wall. I pulled an interconnect wire on a cell level board and the minibms
> alarmed, so it is still working fine. The EKM meter on the AC input to
> the
> charger is still working fine also. Any ideas what happened?
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Manzanita-failure-tp2535870p2535870.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
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E
He says it's blowing the 50 amp breaker at the wall. If it's tripping
immediately it sounds like a ground fault problem doesn't it? I'd think an
over current problem would take a little time to trip the breaker.


Roland Wiench wrote:
>
> Hello Tom,
>
> If the 50 amp breaker on the charger trip, then it could be a bad breaker
> or
> a internal short in a wire or device.
>
> I would first contact Rich Rudman at Manzanito Micro - Email is:
>
> [email protected]
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "tomw" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 11:44 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] Manzanita failure
>
>
>>
>> I charged at an RV park for the first time yesterday. I charged for
>> about
>> 10
>> minutes just to test it out. I charged there again today, planning to
>> fully
>> charge to extend my range. I plugged into a NEMA14-50, turned on the
>> Manzanita PFC30 switch, and adjusted the charge current up to 28ADC
>> (~120V
>> pack, so about 14A from the 50A AC outlet). The TBS gauge read 41.1Ah
>> used,
>> everything looked good, so I went for a walk and got a cup of coffee,
>> expecting it to require about 1 1/2 hour to charge. When I returned
>> about
>> 1
>> hour later the charger was off and the TBS read 41.0Ah used, so it must
>> have
>> kicked off almost immediately after I walked away. I turned the charger
>> current knob down to zero, and flipped the charger switch back on. There
>> was a loud clack and it immediately flipped back off. I have been using
>> this charger on a 240V outlet at home for almost 1 year, and had charged
>> about an hour earlier at home before leaving. When I returned home I
>> tried
>> it again with the same result, and it kicked off the 50A GFCI breaker on
>> the
>> wall. I pulled an interconnect wire on a cell level board and the
>> minibms
>> alarmed, so it is still working fine. The EKM meter on the AC input to
>> the
>> charger is still working fine also. Any ideas what happened?
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Manzanita-failure-tp2535870p2535870.html
>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
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>

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E
"He says it's blowing the 50 amp breaker at the wall."
No. Not at the RV park. The breaker remained on there, only the breaker
(power switch) on the PFC30 kicked off. At home both the PFC30 breaker and
the 50A GFCI breaker at the wall kicked off.

Yeah, I emailed Rich Roland. I've already pulled the charger and packed it
as I expect it is going to have to be sent to Manzanita. Looks like I will
be down for a couple weeks or more :(((( Now I'll be afraid to charge at an
RV park since I don't know what happened.
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E
*Sounds like the PFC30 chose that moment to fail. The RV parks use the same
high quality components as at your own home. Ask Rich to verify if
misswiring the source connection at the RV park would cause this fail or was
it just it's "Time to Fail?" I have never had a problem at an RV Park.
Regards,
Dennis Miles*

tomw <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> "He says it's blowing the 50 amp breaker at the wall."
> No. Not at the RV park. The breaker remained on there, only the breaker
> (power switch) on the PFC30 kicked off. At home both the PFC30 breaker and
> the 50A GFCI breaker at the wall kicked off.
>
> Yeah, I emailed Rich Roland. I've already pulled the charger and packed it
> as I expect it is going to have to be sent to Manzanita. Looks like I will
> be down for a couple weeks or more :(((( Now I'll be afraid to charge at
> an
> RV park since I don't know what happened.
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Manzanita-failure-tp2535870p2535965.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
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tomw wrote:
>
>
> Yeah, I emailed Rich Roland. I've already pulled the charger and packed it
> as I expect it is going to have to be sent to Manzanita. Looks like I will
> be down for a couple weeks or more :(((( Now I'll be afraid to charge at
> an RV park since I don't know what happened.
>
Did you take the cover off to look for anything obvious?
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E
Tom,

Did you ever turn the charger up to 28A DC at home or was
that the first time at the RV park?
It sounds like a component overheated and died at the
14A AC / 28A DC that you were charging away at.
I do not know if that RV park may have a long connection to
their transformer and possibly a heavy load (like an Airco)
kicked off while you were charging, causing a transient on
the power line and stressing a components at the AC entry,
like the bridge rectifier (that is typically the first
semiconductor that you encounter from the AC power entry,
even in a PFC topology).
Replacing a blown bridge rectifier should be a minor repair.

You can ask Rick to find the root cause of failure, whether
a transient or simply stressing the charger close to max current
was contributing to this failure. If a transient then a line
filter may avoid repeating the event, even when charging at
the same park again.

Success,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
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-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of tomw
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 3:41 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Manzanita failure


"He says it's blowing the 50 amp breaker at the wall."
No. Not at the RV park. The breaker remained on there, only the breaker
(power switch) on the PFC30 kicked off. At home both the PFC30 breaker
and the 50A GFCI breaker at the wall kicked off.

Yeah, I emailed Rich Roland. I've already pulled the charger and packed
it as I expect it is going to have to be sent to Manzanita. Looks like I
will be down for a couple weeks or more :(((( Now I'll be afraid to
charge at an RV park since I don't know what happened.
--
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http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Manzanita-f
ailure-tp2535870p2535965.html
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Nabble.com.

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HI Cor,

Yes. I typically charge at 27 to 30A at home, depending on temperature in
the garage. The Manzanita overheats and cuts back charge current to limit
temperature if ambient is too high. In winter I can charge at up to 34A,
but usually just charge at 30.

If there was an AC voltage spike I would have expected it to take out some
of the bms boards, as the optocoupler chips on the cell level boards and
quad comparator on the main board are sensitive to voltage spikes, and the
charger is unisolated (I took some of these out once, and that was the
suspected cause). But the bms is working fine, so I am perplexed. Maybe
there was a spike and somehow the bms escaped. There were at least a half
dozen very large RVs in that row, and all services in the row had a 50A
outlet. Maybe something happened at one of them, don't know. I'll call
Rich tomorrow and see what he thinks may have caused it. Pretty sure I'll
have to send it back, as a diode checker shows open in both polarities
across the DC output. I think that means a power mosfet junction is open.

JRP3, No I haven't taken it apart. I figure I likely couldn't fix it even
if I did see the problem. Probably quicker to return it. The first
electric vehicle show and shine here occurs in about 12 days, so I may well
miss it. :((
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I spoke with Rich this morning. He said the charger breaker kicking off
means the input rectifier is bad. Also said this is a common problem in
PFC30's as the rectifier is being operated closer to its limits than in a
PFC20. A PFC40 uses a completely different circuit, a diode rectifier with
more silicon. He saw no reason to think it was caused by some problem
external to the charger, so its likely just a coincidence I was charging at
an RV park when it went out.
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I wonder if this is an upgrade option for us PFC-30 owners? Mines
working fine but is well out of warranty. If it's a worth while
improvement, I'd like to know more of the details.

DAC, charging at 30 amps for almost 5 years now

tomw <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I spoke with Rich this morning. He said the charger breaker kicking off
> means the input rectifier is bad. Also said this is a common problem in
> PFC30's as the rectifier is being operated closer to its limits than in a
> PFC20. A PFC40 uses a completely different circuit, a diode rectifier with
> more silicon. He saw no reason to think it was caused by some problem
> external to the charger, so its likely just a coincidence I was charging =
at
> an RV park when it went out.
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413=
529.n4.nabble.com/Manzanita-failure-tp2535870p2537797.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Na=
bble.com.
>
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tomw wrote:
>
>
> JRP3, No I haven't taken it apart. I figure I likely couldn't fix it even
> if I did see the problem. Probably quicker to return it. The first
> electric vehicle show and shine here occurs in about 12 days, so I may
> well miss it. :((
>
You can charge your pack with a 12 volt charger, 4 cells at a time, to get
you to the show.

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Today Rich emailed: "The main rectifier bridge got damaged, it's been
replaced, tested and shipped. This happens from time to time on the 30s.
You can get years of operation or months, the fail is random, and based on a
bit too much heat for the part. The PFC40 Rev 8 power board and diode set
improves this pretty dramatically. At a %10 or so cost increase to the whole
charger..."
Couldn't get him to install this board in my PFC30 or quote me on reworking
it to a PFC40.

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Tom,

How is the ventilation of your charger?
Could it have overheated (sitting in the sun)
when you were charging in the RV park, while it
it cooler at home?
Or are you charging in your garage with windows/doors
open while in the RV park everything was locked tight?

I do not know the PFC-30 so if it does not have a good
fan already, then you could add one to help keeping it
cool, or if it has a good fan you can review where the
air is coming from and going to avoid heat buildup....

Success and in order to allow ease of mind while going
longer distance and charging at the RV park you could
either carry an emergency charger (bad boy?) to put
something in the pack while you are watching it and
give you the guarantee that you can always make it home again
or carry a roadside assistance such as BetterWorldClub
(The only environmentally friendly auto club in USA).

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of tomw
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 8:47 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Manzanita failure


Today Rich emailed: "The main rectifier bridge got damaged, it's been
replaced, tested and shipped. This happens from time to time on the
30s.
You can get years of operation or months, the fail is random, and based
on a bit too much heat for the part. The PFC40 Rev 8 power board and
diode set improves this pretty dramatically. At a %10 or so cost
increase to the whole charger..."
Couldn't get him to install this board in my PFC30 or quote me on
reworking it to a PFC40.

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Cor,

It was a fairly cool morning, mid 60's F, when charging at the RV park, so I
don't expect heating was a problem. I have run the charger at 28A in my
garage at 94 F for a few hours without overheating. It has overheated and
cut back charge current when initially set at 28A when the garage was at 100
F, but it continues to charge. It has two small fans mounted in the rear of
the charger. One of the changes a PFC40 has is a larger capacity fan.
Carrying a cheap charger for backup on such longer trips so I don't get
stranded is a good suggestion. Would be easy to just do an 80% charge and
turn off manually. I'll look into that.
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The fans in the PFC30 seem to be pretty robust but I don't know if the flow
through the charger is optimized. When I spoke to Rich about the charger
going into overtemp limit fairly quickly he said it's a problem when
charging a low voltage, 120V, pack at full current from a 240 volt outlet.
He has a fan upgrade kit but it's a $200 option, so I just charge at lower
current. I may try to add an external booster fan myself after reading
about Tom's problems.
Tom, did you ever get your throttle worked out? (I PM'd you)

Cor van de Water wrote:
>
> Tom,
>
> How is the ventilation of your charger?
> Could it have overheated (sitting in the sun)
> when you were charging in the RV park, while it
> it cooler at home?
> Or are you charging in your garage with windows/doors
> open while in the RV park everything was locked tight?
>
> I do not know the PFC-30 so if it does not have a good
> fan already, then you could add one to help keeping it
> cool, or if it has a good fan you can review where the
> air is coming from and going to avoid heat buildup....
>
>

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