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Discussion Starter #1
Talking to Will the other day. I have sent conversions to Europe with LiOn-P4 cells, With more to do and send, and know the customer will only need to go about 120 KM a day and not very fast also, So the conversion is a good build, He will have more than enough range to do what ever he needs to do . On testing it, it did hit about 80 MPH and thats more than He needs. So now the 100 mile range is very passable to do with any conversion using LiOn-P4 cells .

With this it seems the Volt and Leaf are not up to the task to do what a simple conversion WILL do. If my conversions will get 100 mile range, using the same formula of build that Will is getting at 120 miles at road speeds , than I beat the big car makers and alot of us did the same thing ..so who needs a volt or leaf???? and at their prices , its a win win for the conversion business..and you get to pick what ever vehicle you want...now something that looks like Asian potato . The more I read about the Leaf it says it gets a 100 mile range but going slow./ no one goes slow ,except if there stuck in traffic jams . Then I guess the Leaf would do the trick....

ev-blue.com
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Discussion Starter #2
Who is that Will?
I cant imagine that you can do a conversion without using the backseat space of the car, can you?



-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 15:47:06 -0500 (EST)
> Von: Electric Blue auto convertions <[email protected]>
> An: ev <[email protected]>
> Betreff: [EVDL] milage

> Talking to Will the other day. I have sent conversions to Europe with
> LiOn-P4 cells, With more to do and send, and know the customer will only need
> to go about 120 KM a day and not very fast also, So the conversion is a good
> build, He will have more than enough range to do what ever he needs to do
> . On testing it, it did hit about 80 MPH and thats more than He needs. So
> now the 100 mile range is very passable to do with any conversion using
> LiOn-P4 cells .
>
> With this it seems the Volt and Leaf are not up to the task to do what a
> simple conversion WILL do. If my conversions will get 100 mile range, using
> the same formula of build that Will is getting at 120 miles at road speeds
> , than I beat the big car makers and alot of us did the same thing ..so who
> needs a volt or leaf???? and at their prices , its a win win for the
> conversion business..and you get to pick what ever vehicle you want...now
> something that looks like Asian potato . The more I read about the Leaf it says
> it gets a 100 mile range but going slow./ no one goes slow ,except if there
> stuck in traffic jams . Then I guess the Leaf would do the trick....
>
> ev-blue.com
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Discussion Starter #3
Kirill Spitzer wrote:
> I can't imagine that you can do a conversion without using the
> backseat space of the car, can you?

It's not easy; but it's possible. My present EV is a 1980 Renault LeCar.
It has 15 golf cart batteries in it (7 under the hood, and 8 under the
floor of the trunk), and still has a full back seat. It took a lot of
work to squeeze them all in, though.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Discussion Starter #4
Electric Blue auto convertions wrote:
> With this it seems the Volt and Leaf are not up to the task to do what a
> simple conversion WILL do.

I have a Leaf on order and I REALLY look forward to receiving it. What
you say about conversions would be true, IF they were reliable. Sadly,
in my experience, they are highly un-reliable. And, there is no one
in this area that will work on a conversion. I look forward to Nissan
handling whatever problems crop up on the Leaf.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 81 days 14 hours 17 minutes

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Discussion Starter #5
There are many reasons you are on the negative that you haven't told us. One of the main reasons is a poorly built EV to begin with. I have seen EV's that are filthy in and out, grease still in the engine compartment, My favorite, No power steering pump installed on a car that has power steering, the wrong batteries for the EV. The glider chosen was the wrong vehicle for the owner. Maintenance was not done regularly. The list goes on and on. If your EV is perfect. The last reason is "there's nothing better than buying a new car!"

Phil Galati
NJ EV Conversions


Dec 2, 2010 10:12:58 PM, [email protected] wrote:

===========================================

Electric Blue auto convertions wrote:
> With this it seems the Volt and Leaf are not up to the task to do what a
> simple conversion WILL do.

I have a Leaf on order and I REALLY look forward to receiving it. What
you say about conversions would be true, IF they were reliable. Sadly,
in my experience, they are highly un-reliable. And, there is no one
in this area that will work on a conversion. I look forward to Nissan
handling whatever problems crop up on the Leaf.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 81 days 14 hours 17 minutes

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Discussion Starter #6
[email protected] wrote:

> There are many reasons you are on the negative that you
> haven't told us. One of the main reasons is a poorly built EV
> to begin with. I have seen EV's that are filthy in and out,
> grease still in the engine compartment, My favorite, No power
> steering pump installed on a car that has power steering, the
> wrong batteries for the EV. The glider chosen was the wrong
> vehicle for the owner. Maintenance was not done regularly.
> The list goes on and on. If your EV is perfect. The last
> reason is "there's nothing better than buying a new car!"

Not picking on you Phil, but do *you* offer an 8-10yr/100000mi warranty on the conversions you build, including the battery?

I think when conversion shops (yours, EV-Blue, or any other) have the confidence in their product to offer the same sort of warranty as the OEM, then they are in a position to look down at their offerings.

In the meantime, buying a conversion is a bit of a crapshoot. It *might* achieve the promised range on delivery, but there is no guarantee about how long the battery will last and little recourse for the purchaser if the battery life or vehicle reliability is less than they expected.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Discussion Starter #7
On 2 Dec 2010 at 16:04, Lee Hart wrote:

> My present EV is a 1980 Renault LeCar. It has 15 golf cart batteries in
> it (7 under the hood, and 8 under the floor of the trunk),

I can believe 8 in the back - that's a pretty sizable area. But 7 under the
hood? Miraculous. I remember the (ICE) R5 that a friend of mine had many
years ago. The bonnet was so small that the engine barely fit; Renault had
to bring the exhaust pipe out through the wheel well. Your car must be a
tardis, or else your batteries are made of moldable silicone. ;-)

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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Discussion Starter #8
From: Willie McKemie

>I have a Leaf on order and I REALLY look forward to receiving it. What
you say about conversions would be true, IF they were reliable. Sadly,
in my experience, they are highly un-reliable. And, there is no one
in this area that will work on a conversion. I look forward to Nissan
handling whatever problems crop up on the Leaf.>

Hi Willie ,,, I feel your pain ,, I've seen the reliability of
conversions go up and down over the years . New parts come out and in
a few years we know if we have a winner but some times they fail .
Then when we do find something that seems to do the job there's a
long wait and then they disappear. I've noticed that the old timers
seem to stay with the old stuff while new people tend to try out the
new stuff ...My guess it that there are more new EV's ( we'll say 5
years or less) using (in %) Li-ion batteries than there are old timers
. Each conversion is a kind of EV experiment , and there is lots to
learn from each one , Experiments that end soon because of a silly
mistake or a product failure are a great loss to all of us .

there not being anyone in your area to fix your conversion is the
whole "chicken and the egg", what comes first. I would keep looking
because finding someone to work on the conversions that you have will
be "water on the seed. We have a lot of customers ship their cars to
our shop, and during the summer months we are Mobile. We traveled
from Florida to California to Oklahoma and then home this summer
repairing, upgrading and converting EVs.

It is interesting that people have so much confidence in the "Latest"
product. I hope the Leaf lives up to what they say, but as some what
of an old timer, like many old timers, I will be watching you Newbies
go first.

Steve Clunn

--
Tomorrows Ride TODAY !
Visit our shop web page at: www.Greenshedconversions.com

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Discussion Starter #9
I LIKE THAT ONE STEVE, YOU ARE THE MAN!!!

DAN

STILL WORKING ON MY BMS, LOOKING GOOD.

> Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 10:10:42 -0500
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [EVDL] milage
>
> From: Willie McKemie
>
> >I have a Leaf on order and I REALLY look forward to receiving it. What
> you say about conversions would be true, IF they were reliable. Sadly,
> in my experience, they are highly un-reliable. And, there is no one
> in this area that will work on a conversion. I look forward to Nissan
> handling whatever problems crop up on the Leaf.>
>
> Hi Willie ,,, I feel your pain ,, I've seen the reliability of
> conversions go up and down over the years . New parts come out and in
> a few years we know if we have a winner but some times they fail .
> Then when we do find something that seems to do the job there's a
> long wait and then they disappear. I've noticed that the old timers
> seem to stay with the old stuff while new people tend to try out the
> new stuff ...My guess it that there are more new EV's ( we'll say 5
> years or less) using (in %) Li-ion batteries than there are old timers
> . Each conversion is a kind of EV experiment , and there is lots to
> learn from each one , Experiments that end soon because of a silly
> mistake or a product failure are a great loss to all of us .
>
> there not being anyone in your area to fix your conversion is the
> whole "chicken and the egg", what comes first. I would keep looking
> because finding someone to work on the conversions that you have will
> be "water on the seed. We have a lot of customers ship their cars to
> our shop, and during the summer months we are Mobile. We traveled
> from Florida to California to Oklahoma and then home this summer
> repairing, upgrading and converting EVs.
>
> It is interesting that people have so much confidence in the "Latest"
> product. I hope the Leaf lives up to what they say, but as some what
> of an old timer, like many old timers, I will be watching you Newbies
> go first.
>
> Steve Clunn
>
> --
> Tomorrows Ride TODAY !
> Visit our shop web page at: www.Greenshedconversions.com
>
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Discussion Starter #10
Quoting Alan Fuller <[email protected]>:

> I've seen unreliable first hand. Not the conversion itself I'm very
> happy with it, but the batteries. I took possession of my conversion
> in April 09. Now my ev is garage bound with bad batteries. I have
> about 8500 miles on them.

I don't have much experience with lead, but from what I've read, 8K+
miles sounds pretty good. With 15K on my lithiums, I figure I would
be into my second or third set of leads.

I have just the opposite experience: battery has given very little
trouble; controllers, heater, air conditioner, etc have all been
troublesome.

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Discussion Starter #11
I wonder if you are looking in the right places for mechanics? I have two
mechanics working on my conversion:

A local forklift shop did the major checkout and replaced the brushes and
brush holder when they started to melt down. I think I could have done that
work myself, but I wanted to have somebody who knew what they were doing
look at it and make sure the commutator was OK.

My regular auto mechanic works on most of the rest of the car. Those parts
are still Honda Civic del Sol. I think this mechanic might work on the
electric motor if I asked, but it would be an experiment for them.

I'm fairly comfortable working on most of the electrical wiring, so I'm
doing that myself. I think either of the above shops would do that upon
request, though.

Miek

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Willie McKemie
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 4:28 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] milage

On Thu, Dec 02, 2010 at 03:47:06PM -0500, Electric Blue auto convertions
wrote:
> With this it seems the Volt and Leaf are not up to the task to do what
> a simple conversion WILL do.

I have a Leaf on order and I REALLY look forward to receiving it. What you
say about conversions would be true, IF they were reliable. Sadly,
in my experience, they are highly un-reliable. And, there is no one
in this area that will work on a conversion. I look forward to Nissan
handling whatever problems crop up on the Leaf.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 81 days 14 hours 17 minutes

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Discussion Starter #12
Agree,
Just shop around and be sensitive to people's
fear of the unknown and see if you can make
them comfortable.
When I bought a salvage Prius, a local workshop
did not mind working on it as long as I could guarantee
that no high voltages would be present ever on any part.
So I showed them the orange Service Plug on the battery
and told them that they could drive the vehicle around the
shop (I already had it fixed up enough by myself to have
everything related to engine, coolant and brakes back in
shape) but they said that they wanted me to *permanently*
remove high voltage and they were used to pushing the
vehicles around the shop.
So, I took out the Service Plug and they were happy.
When they were all done with the work, from straightening
frame rails to replacing the windshield and repainting
the front end of the car, I came and put the Service Plug
back in and drove away, first to the lamp and brake test
and next to the DMV.
On the way I got stopped by a police officer in training
because there were no plates on my car, but that is
another story. It helped that I had an appointment at DMV.

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Mike Nickerson
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 3:32 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] milage

I wonder if you are looking in the right places for mechanics? I have
two mechanics working on my conversion:

A local forklift shop did the major checkout and replaced the brushes
and brush holder when they started to melt down. I think I could have
done that work myself, but I wanted to have somebody who knew what they
were doing look at it and make sure the commutator was OK.

My regular auto mechanic works on most of the rest of the car. Those
parts are still Honda Civic del Sol. I think this mechanic might work
on the electric motor if I asked, but it would be an experiment for
them.

I'm fairly comfortable working on most of the electrical wiring, so I'm
doing that myself. I think either of the above shops would do that upon
request, though.

Miek

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Willie McKemie
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 4:28 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] milage

On Thu, Dec 02, 2010 at 03:47:06PM -0500, Electric Blue auto convertions
wrote:
> With this it seems the Volt and Leaf are not up to the task to do what

> a simple conversion WILL do.

I have a Leaf on order and I REALLY look forward to receiving it. What
you say about conversions would be true, IF they were reliable. Sadly,
in my experience, they are highly un-reliable. And, there is no one
in this area that will work on a conversion. I look forward to Nissan
handling whatever problems crop up on the Leaf.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 81 days 14 hours 17 minutes

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Discussion Starter #13
I hear on this list a lot of unhappy EVers who we would prefer to see
wearing the EV GRIN! I personally believe that there is a solution. For
some of you a high level competency allow you to do your own EV work. That
group seem to be the Happiest of EVers. some others praise the Conversion
shop who stands behind their work and provides warranty assistance also! A
few use a local Fork Lift shop service to have the electrical traction
system maintained. And the most upset group are unsuccessful in obtaining
service and give up in frustration. Some eventually sell the EV at scrap
prices and give up.

In the region I live in, all of these situations exist! We have some EVers
who are happy to do their own EV repairs and service. We see them Grin at
local EAA meetings. We have several of the best "Conversion Shops" in this
region and their "Customers" sing their praises. But within a 100 mile
radius of my location live four million people and only one "Fork lift
mechanic " (In Tampa) will repair conversions. [ZENN has a Dealer near here
but only work on ZENN brand vehicles.] In this area vehicles can have a long
life, my Wife and our son each drive vehicles with 200,000 miles or more on
the odometer. (I attribute some of that to "No Road Salt" ) Even so, I am a
believer in the Electric Car as a personal transport solution. I upsets me
that some Major Manufacturers claim Electrics are so reliable that no
mechanic in their Dealership needs to be trained to work on, service, or
repair EVs. This is why I sincerely believe a Technical School [or several ]
are needed. I can get a ICE vehicle repaired in any medium scale town and
have a choice of facilities ready willing and able to help me with any
difficulty I might have. But I only know of less than a dozen places in the
entire state of Florida that are technically competent to fix any EV
electrical problem!

This then is what I want to do, train mechanics to work on the EV electrical
traction system in a competent manner.

If you feel this is a valid thing to do, you can read 42 pages of
documentation and supporting articles on my web pages. Just follow the links
in my signature, or phone me, ( I like to talk.) Or E-mail me on or off
list.
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I or (813) 434 - 3884

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Cor van de Water <[email protected]> wrote:

> Agree,
> Just shop around and be sensitive to people's
> fear of the unknown and see if you can make
> them comfortable.
> When I bought a salvage Prius, a local workshop
> did not mind working on it as long as I could guarantee
> that no high voltages would be present ever on any part.
> So I showed them the orange Service Plug on the battery
> and told them that they could drive the vehicle around the
> shop (I already had it fixed up enough by myself to have
> everything related to engine, coolant and brakes back in
> shape) but they said that they wanted me to *permanently*
> remove high voltage and they were used to pushing the
> vehicles around the shop.
> So, I took out the Service Plug and they were happy.
> When they were all done with the work, from straightening
> frame rails to replacing the windshield and repainting
> the front end of the car, I came and put the Service Plug
> back in and drove away, first to the lamp and brake test
> and next to the DMV.
> On the way I got stopped by a police officer in training
> because there were no plates on my car, but that is
> another story. It helped that I had an appointment at DMV.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Mike Nickerson
> Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 3:32 AM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] milage
>
> I wonder if you are looking in the right places for mechanics? I have
> two mechanics working on my conversion:
>
> A local forklift shop did the major checkout and replaced the brushes
> and brush holder when they started to melt down. I think I could have
> done that work myself, but I wanted to have somebody who knew what they
> were doing look at it and make sure the commutator was OK.
>
> My regular auto mechanic works on most of the rest of the car. Those
> parts are still Honda Civic del Sol. I think this mechanic might work
> on the electric motor if I asked, but it would be an experiment for
> them.
>
> I'm fairly comfortable working on most of the electrical wiring, so I'm
> doing that myself. I think either of the above shops would do that upon
> request, though.
>
> Miek
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Willie McKemie
> Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 4:28 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] milage
>
> On Thu, Dec 02, 2010 at 03:47:06PM -0500, Electric Blue auto convertions
> wrote:
> > With this it seems the Volt and Leaf are not up to the task to do what
>
> > a simple conversion WILL do.
>
> I have a Leaf on order and I REALLY look forward to receiving it. What
> you say about conversions would be true, IF they were reliable. Sadly,
> in my experience, they are highly un-reliable. And, there is no one
> in this area that will work on a conversion. I look forward to Nissan
> handling whatever problems crop up on the Leaf.
>
> --
> Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 81 days 14 hours 17 minutes
>
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