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Discussion Starter #1
--- Matt Graham <[email protected]> wrote:

> but now I have the very real (already occurred)
> failure point of the
> coupling. More specifically, the keystock likes to
> shear in two. Of course
> this can be remedied, but not without something like
> a splined interface
> between the two motors and also back to the
> driveshaft. I see Mike already
> mentioned the TransWarp9, but I don't believe the
> tailshaft comes splined,
> too.

Hey Matt

I thought your issue was in the final output drive
shaft? and not the coupler interface?

The TransWarp9 does come with the same 1 1/8th keyed
shaft (for the tailshaft) as the standard 1 1/8th
keyed output shaft on the Warp9 or ADC 9's which
should be a lot stouter than the tailshaft you've had
to deal with. Anyway I know you split your final
output shaft but wanted to see if you've also had
issues with the couplered shaft keys?

Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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Discussion Starter #2
Matt,
What coupler were you using? Was it a Taperlock or a Gear Coupler?
As Jim can attest the new DE shaft on that TransWarp9 looks much better that the 1-1/8 DE on the WarP9.
My concern is still the interface between the two however. I'm going with a 1-1/8" to 1-1/8" Dodge Gear Coupler with the "Flex" hubs on both sides. Jim wound up pressing them on for me over the keyed spline.

Did you say you were shearing the keys? which is why I was wondering if you were using Taper-Lock or press fit Gear hubs.

Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Husted wrote:
>
> Hey Matt
>
> I thought your issue was in the final output drive
> shaft? and not the coupler interface?
>
> The TransWarp9 does come with the same 1 1/8th keyed
> shaft (for the tailshaft) as the standard 1 1/8th
> keyed output shaft on the Warp9 or ADC 9's which
> should be a lot stouter than the tailshaft you've had
> to deal with. Anyway I know you split your final
> output shaft but wanted to see if you've also had
> issues with the couplered shaft keys?
>
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
>
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Discussion Starter #3
Hey Jim,

At Steve Clunn's rally the year before last I sheared the smaller tailshaft
key during a burnout. Here's a picture of the carnage:

http://www.jouleinjected.com/sheared.jpg

I had hoped that it was just the rearmost motor's output shaft, and that I'd
be able to repair it at Steve's garage. Charles Whalen actually towed me the
5 miles or so using his RAV4 EV. Thanks again, Charles!

Well, not to be left out, that shaft managed to get in on the action, too:

http://www.jouleinjected.com/cracked.jpg

Clearly all those burnouts and hard launches with sticky tires at the track
did in the final output shaft. It literally took hours to pull the yoke off
of that split shaft. The issue with the tailshaft of that same motor was in
part due to the smaller 3/16" keyway that's standard on the smaller shafts.
At least the 1 1/8" shafts get the 1/4" keys. Now there are hardened tool
steel keys in place, but you know it's just hogging out those keyways.

I had to rotate the rear motor back to the front since its tailshaft was
turned down a few thousandths.

Yes, splines would be a good idea. . .take care of those motors, folks!

Matt Graham
300V Nissan 240SX "Joule Injected"
http://www.jouleinjected.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Husted [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 3:20 PM
To: [email protected]; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Motor coupler issues / was Looking for a Conversion Kit for a 1929
Ford.


--- Matt Graham <[email protected]> wrote:

> but now I have the very real (already occurred)
> failure point of the
> coupling. More specifically, the keystock likes to
> shear in two. Of course
> this can be remedied, but not without something like
> a splined interface
> between the two motors and also back to the
> driveshaft. I see Mike already
> mentioned the TransWarp9, but I don't believe the
> tailshaft comes splined,
> too.

Hey Matt

I thought your issue was in the final output drive
shaft? and not the coupler interface?

The TransWarp9 does come with the same 1 1/8th keyed
shaft (for the tailshaft) as the standard 1 1/8th
keyed output shaft on the Warp9 or ADC 9's which
should be a lot stouter than the tailshaft you've had
to deal with. Anyway I know you split your final
output shaft but wanted to see if you've also had
issues with the couplered shaft keys?

Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric



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Discussion Starter #4
I don't think we should be depending on the key at all. If the key
holds, the shear will destroy the shaft as you have discovered,
especially with the compromised shaft (big pilot hole)

For me the key is just there to help assembly and prevent rotation creep
which could become slip.

I used to cringe at hearing conversations on this list on how to cut off
splines or adapt them to keyed shaft. LOL

Are your couplers taper lock?

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Discussion Starter #5
Instead of using the standard key in my motor shaft, which I find after 10
years of use, becomes worn and loose. I had the motor shaft re-key deeper
and use a very hard tool steel stock, that is use for lathe cutting tools.
The edges on this key is so sharp that you can cut your self with it.

This type of key has to be press fit into the motor shaft, not just lay in
by pressing in by hand. Now because I have a double end shaft motor, I have
to put the whole motor in a horizontal 20 ton press that bridges the motor
and press the motor coupler on that very tight sharp key by pressing on both
end of the motor shaft.

After ten years of this installation, I had to remove the coupler with a
bearing splitter and a impact wrench. The key is still in perfect shape.

I am going to use a taper lock coupler with the same type of key, and see
what happens.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 7:48 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Motor coupler issues / was Looking for a Conversion Kit for
a 1929 Ford.


> I don't think we should be depending on the key at all. If the key
> holds, the shear will destroy the shaft as you have discovered,
> especially with the compromised shaft (big pilot hole)
>
> For me the key is just there to help assembly and prevent rotation creep
> which could become slip.
>
> I used to cringe at hearing conversations on this list on how to cut off
> splines or adapt them to keyed shaft. LOL
>
> Are your couplers taper lock?
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter #6
If you're talking to Mike Willmon, mine are interference fit - heated and pressed on per Jim Husted.
The engineers at Dodge said that 500 ft-lbs was outside the spec for that size Taper-Lock. The problem being that the small (M6 I think, may be wrong) hardware could not take the torque to provide adequate suck in pressure on the taper lock bushing.

Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.

----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Shanab
>
> Are your couplers taper lock?

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Discussion Starter #7
Actually that's the biggest reason I was thinking a flanged shaft would be
cool. I'm hearing too many differing opinions about the best way to couple
to the shaft. Electro Automotive says taper lock is the only way to go,
taper lock says no? I'll have to look at their specs again, if I recall,
they're all in inch pounds. Is foot pounds simply inch pounts/12? On the
other hand, I doubt I'll see 250 foot pounds on the street with a single
motor and batteries I can afford, much less 500.

Another question, if I have a taper lock coupler made that accurately
emulates a Chevy crankshaft, and puts the pilot bushing correctly recessed
into the coupler, not drilled into the motor shaft, it will be long, with
the flywheel mounting surface a ways from the end of the motor output shaft.
Can a taper lock be counted on to hold alignment well enough that this will
not pose alignment, runout and balance issues?

Back to dual motors and monster torque, what kind of coupler is on the
business end of White Zombie? Has it been a problem? This looks like a
reason to consider a setup like Otmar's 914 with the two motor's DE's belted
together so the output shaft diameter doesn't end up being on the small side
for the torque of two motors physically in series, although I'm not crazy
about the side loads that may produce. Makes me want to take a look at the
chain drive setup on the output end of 500 cubes in the 70's Eldorados, or
the gear train used to drive the front drive shaft in a Dana 20 transfer
case. The Dana 20 has an input gear from the trans, an output gear for the
front drive shaft, and an idler in between. Might be able to put a motor
where the trans belongs, a motor where the front drive shaft belongs, and
take the output off the idler.

Marty


----- Original Message -----
From: "MIKE WILLMON" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor coupler issues / was Looking for a Conversion Kit
for a 1929 Ford.


> If you're talking to Mike Willmon, mine are interference fit - heated and
> pressed on per Jim Husted.
> The engineers at Dodge said that 500 ft-lbs was outside the spec for that
> size Taper-Lock. The problem being that the small (M6 I think, may be
> wrong) hardware could not take the torque to provide adequate suck in
> pressure on the taper lock bushing.
>
> Mike,
> Anchorage, Ak.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jeff Shanab
>>
>> Are your couplers taper lock?
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


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Discussion Starter #8
The Dodge R16 Series 'Taper-Lock' Rigid hub is rated for 5050 in-lbs (420 ft-lbs) at 4965 RPM and weighs 8 lbs. Thats very slightly under the 500 ft-lbs and 5500 RPM I may expect to see. Although I'm hoping to limit RPM at 5000.

Now the Dodge 1.0 series Rigid Gear Coupler is rated for 7500 in-lbs (625 ft-lbs) at 6000 RPM and weighs 9 lbs. This is just over my requirements which is a safe place to be.

Now for my daily driver that may never even see 300 ft-lbs and is absolutely limited to 5000 RPM (typically never even sees 4000 RPM) the Taper-Lock hub adapter is no doubt an acceptable way to go. Even Dodge would agree. However when I told them I was doing a dragster and would expect to see 500 hard ft-lbs dropped on the coupler between the motors they steered me away from the Taper-Lock. They said it would absolutely hold the 300 ft-lbs, but the suck down bolts that pull in the tapered bushing weren't strong enough to put enough pressure to hold 500 ft-lbs. They said the bushing would probably slip and rely too much on the key to hold.

The nice thing about the Taper-Lock is that its is easy to remove.

Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.

----- Original Message -----
From: Marty Hewes <[email protected]>
Date: Friday, August 10, 2007 6:17 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor coupler issues / was Looking for a Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>

> Actually that's the biggest reason I was thinking a flanged shaft
> would be
> cool. I'm hearing too many differing opinions about the best way
> to couple
> to the shaft. Electro Automotive says taper lock is the only way
> to go,
> taper lock says no? I'll have to look at their specs again, if I
> recall,
> they're all in inch pounds. Is foot pounds simply inch pounts/12?
> On the
> other hand, I doubt I'll see 250 foot pounds on the street with a
> single
> motor and batteries I can afford, much less 500.
>
> Another question, if I have a taper lock coupler made that
> accurately
> emulates a Chevy crankshaft, and puts the pilot bushing correctly
> recessed
> into the coupler, not drilled into the motor shaft, it will be
> long, with
> the flywheel mounting surface a ways from the end of the motor
> output shaft.
> Can a taper lock be counted on to hold alignment well enough that
> this will
> not pose alignment, runout and balance issues?
>
> Back to dual motors and monster torque, what kind of coupler is on
> the
> business end of White Zombie? Has it been a problem? This looks
> like a
> reason to consider a setup like Otmar's 914 with the two motor's
> DE's belted
> together so the output shaft diameter doesn't end up being on the
> small side
> for the torque of two motors physically in series, although I'm not
> crazy
> about the side loads that may produce. Makes me want to take a
> look at the
> chain drive setup on the output end of 500 cubes in the 70's
> Eldorados, or
> the gear train used to drive the front drive shaft in a Dana 20
> transfer
> case. The Dana 20 has an input gear from the trans, an output gear
> for the
> front drive shaft, and an idler in between. Might be able to put a
> motor
> where the trans belongs, a motor where the front drive shaft
> belongs, and
> take the output off the idler.
>
> Marty
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "MIKE WILLMON" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 1:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor coupler issues / was Looking for a
> Conversion Kit
> for a 1929 Ford.
>
>
> > If you're talking to Mike Willmon, mine are interference fit -
> heated and
> > pressed on per Jim Husted.
> > The engineers at Dodge said that 500 ft-lbs was outside the spec
> for that
> > size Taper-Lock. The problem being that the small (M6 I think,
> may be
> > wrong) hardware could not take the torque to provide adequate
> suck in
> > pressure on the taper lock bushing.
> >
> > Mike,
> > Anchorage, Ak.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jeff Shanab
> >>
> >> Are your couplers taper lock?
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter #9
White Zombie has a single solid shaft running through both armatures. No keys or couplers to shear or slip, or welded flanges to worry about when removing it; just one big long a$$ shaft. The business end has a hardened (I think) involute splined shaft that a slip yoke attaches directly to the drive shaft. Again no flanges, adapters, keys or such. All business and (depending on who's driving) no BS.

I'll let Jim elaborate more if need be on any problems, like wagging the motors, which is a technical term I think Jim coined for motors who's tail ends are allowed to wander around in circles ;-P (I think it was compared to the actions that make a dogs nose brown ;-)

;-)

Mike W.

Marty Hewes
> Back to dual motors and monster torque, what kind of coupler is on
> the
> business end of White Zombie? Has it been a problem?

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Discussion Starter #10
--- MIKE WILLMON <[email protected]> wrote:

> White Zombie has a single solid shaft running
> through both armatures. No keys or couplers to
> shear or slip, or welded flanges to worry about when
> removing it; just one big long a$$ shaft. The
> business end has a hardened (I think)

Hey Mike, all

Probably should make a new thread here if it continues
lol. Poor 1929 guy got hijacked 8^o

I really don't know what Keith used for materials to
be honest (trade secret probably, lol) You ask him
and he'll tell you it's "starchy" I call it having
boing 8^)
I have heard the term "magnetic stainless" though I
can't remember from who or if such a stainless exists
so no laughing 8^P What ever it is it isn't hardened.
In fact if it were I probably wouldn't have the
rubbing but it would have stood a higher chance of
snapping. Nice catch 22 huh 8^)

John could stand to have something like the TransWarp
tranny bushing to externally help hold the shaft nice
and true. Even Tim was saying last race when we
talked about it that the slip yoke isn't to tight a
fit and there is that little bit of slop, which it
needs. In my minds eye this aspect could be improved
and could at least contribute to a vibration problem.

I believe John is having vibration issues but they've
changed and went away and come back (correct me if I'm
wrong here John). The change to Siamese happened
right after John did the 12.99 run (again correct if
wrong) and now with a 11.47 at 115 MPH I didn't see
Tim freaking out about vibation, actually it was about
stuck throttles 8^o, well actually Tim doesn't freak
out about anything 8^) Wayland was the one freaking
out 8^o It may have been excitment that they had
broke something though, hard to tell 8^P

>From what little I've heard it's not a completely
bottled genie. As far as drivelines and angles go I'm
sure that Tim and John are aware of this as both are
top end mechanics and race freaks 8^) Tim isn't just
the driver!

Anyway the motor's pretty well documented and can all
be seen at John's site. It ain't perfect but I'm
thinking it beat his old keyed shaft 8^)

http://photos.plasmaboyracing.com/buildsequence


> I'll let Jim elaborate more if need be on any
> problems, like wagging the motors, which is a
> technical term I think Jim coined for motors who's
> tail ends are allowed to wander around in circles
> ;-P (I think it was compared to the actions that
> make a dogs nose brown ;-)


Okay here's my take on this. I've seen motors that
are mounted by just the drive end and just let the
rest of the motor hang off, no problem really as
that's the torque end. Now picture mounting the motor
via just the comm plate and going direct drive from
there. I just think you could ask more from the DE
mounted one.

Another thought is I didn't design it to be hung, as
there are just 8 little itty bitty 1/4" X 20 bolts
that hold that side to the other side, plus the two
7/16th bolts that the flang is bolted to which mount
and help hold the halves together. Now call me
paranoid but that freaks me out a little bit!

Hey Mike let's test this, how bout you leave those
last two bolts out of those holes I put in and see
where it gets ya, LMAO!

Anyway for those who want to know about the Siamese 8
it's all there at Johns site.

Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric



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