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Discussion Starter #1
I'm experiencing some odd battery behavior and I'm hoping perhaps
someone can provide some expert advice to interpret what I'm seeing. I
originally started with 28 batteries, however have only installed 24 due
to space limitations. The twenty-four batteries that were installed in
the car have been charged & discharged occasionally over the past year
but for the most part the car has just been sitting during that time and
so the batteries maybe got around a dozen cycles during that period. I
managed to toast one of the batteries due to some carelessness on my
part and replaced it with one of the "extra" batteries that had been
sitting completely unused for that entire time. For the past month or
so I have been driving the car on a daily basis without any trouble, but
that new battery seems to require a bit of extra attention when charging
and I'm trying to figure out if the problem is with the new battery or
with the other batteries. Now, today, I seem to have a second battery
that is behaving just like the new battery. When charging the full
pack, these two batteries never seem to charge more slowly. By the time
the rest of the batteries have reached a full charge and the regs are
merrily blinking away at their 14.8V limit, these two batteries are
still only at around 13.3-13.4 volts. I can connect them to my 12V
charger to charge them individually and the voltage seems to come up
just fine. It's only when charged in the full string that they seem to
be obstinate. The weird thing though is that if I disconnect the
charger and come back to check the resting voltage later, these two
batteries are still at around 12.87 volts or so, which is a hair lower
than the other batteries but still within 0.05V and apparently fully
charged.

So.... Which batteries are functioning properly? Is the entire rest of
my pack coming up to the 14.8V max voltage too quickly, and these two
are the only batteries working correctly? A sign of sulfation maybe??
Or is the majority of my pack fine and it's just these two individual
batteries that are acting up? Any explanations for exactly what might
be going on here and what to do to get all of the batteries charging in
a uniform manner?


Thanks in advance for any help/advice.

-Bryan

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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
Hello Bryan,

Make sure when you have the spare batteries in storage, put battery
maintainers on them. Setting a long time with out maintainers, the negative
plates could have more sulfate build up on them, thus it takes a longer
charge time. You can get these maintainers from batteries shops.

I have maintainers on all my store batteries. I put a maintainer on a deep
cycle marine 12 volt battery that was in a Cam Am race car that was
converted to a sports car back in 1973 that was in storage. I took it out
of the box last year, service the car and the battery still can turn over
the engine way lot longer than a standard cranking battery. Sold it to a
friend of mine who has a collection of these type of cars, and the battery
is still turning over the engine today.

Also check the manufacture dates on all your batteries, at one time the
dealer slip in 10 batteries that were about a year old with the other 20
batteries that was only a month all. I made him replace all the other 10
batteries.

In the northern country, the dealers buy pallet loads of batteries in the
spring to get ready the golf season, so that's the time to purchase them so
you get a pack with all the same manufacture dates.

After 6 years, I'am still running Trojan's T-145's between 0.01 to 0.02 volt
difference between all the batteries and that's without any BMS and plan to
get another 6 years out of them.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan" <[email protected]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 12:11 AM
Subject: [EVDL] need some help interpretting odd charging behavior


> I'm experiencing some odd battery behavior and I'm hoping perhaps
> someone can provide some expert advice to interpret what I'm seeing. I
> originally started with 28 batteries, however have only installed 24 due
> to space limitations. The twenty-four batteries that were installed in
> the car have been charged & discharged occasionally over the past year
> but for the most part the car has just been sitting during that time and
> so the batteries maybe got around a dozen cycles during that period. I
> managed to toast one of the batteries due to some carelessness on my
> part and replaced it with one of the "extra" batteries that had been
> sitting completely unused for that entire time. For the past month or
> so I have been driving the car on a daily basis without any trouble, but
> that new battery seems to require a bit of extra attention when charging
> and I'm trying to figure out if the problem is with the new battery or
> with the other batteries. Now, today, I seem to have a second battery
> that is behaving just like the new battery. When charging the full
> pack, these two batteries never seem to charge more slowly. By the time
> the rest of the batteries have reached a full charge and the regs are
> merrily blinking away at their 14.8V limit, these two batteries are
> still only at around 13.3-13.4 volts. I can connect them to my 12V
> charger to charge them individually and the voltage seems to come up
> just fine. It's only when charged in the full string that they seem to
> be obstinate. The weird thing though is that if I disconnect the
> charger and come back to check the resting voltage later, these two
> batteries are still at around 12.87 volts or so, which is a hair lower
> than the other batteries but still within 0.05V and apparently fully
> charged.
>
> So.... Which batteries are functioning properly? Is the entire rest of
> my pack coming up to the 14.8V max voltage too quickly, and these two
> are the only batteries working correctly? A sign of sulfation maybe??
> Or is the majority of my pack fine and it's just these two individual
> batteries that are acting up? Any explanations for exactly what might
> be going on here and what to do to get all of the batteries charging in
> a uniform manner?
>
>
> Thanks in advance for any help/advice.
>
> -Bryan
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Bryan,

What kind of batteries do you have? What charger and regulators?

How do you have the charger setup? What charge profile are you using?

As for your pack, my guess is that the two batteries are not fully
charged. Based on your description of an "older" battery in the pack
showing the same problems as the "new" battery in the pack, I'd say
your charge profile isn't well suited to the batteries, and that your
entire pack may be undercharged.

If you're using a PFC charger, does the timer start with regbus activity?
How long is the timer set for? What is the pack current when the timer
expires and the charger stops?

Ralph


Bryan writes:
>
> I'm experiencing some odd battery behavior and I'm hoping perhaps
> someone can provide some expert advice to interpret what I'm seeing. I
> originally started with 28 batteries, however have only installed 24 due
> to space limitations. The twenty-four batteries that were installed in
> the car have been charged & discharged occasionally over the past year
> but for the most part the car has just been sitting during that time and
> so the batteries maybe got around a dozen cycles during that period. I
> managed to toast one of the batteries due to some carelessness on my
> part and replaced it with one of the "extra" batteries that had been
> sitting completely unused for that entire time. For the past month or
> so I have been driving the car on a daily basis without any trouble, but
> that new battery seems to require a bit of extra attention when charging
> and I'm trying to figure out if the problem is with the new battery or
> with the other batteries. Now, today, I seem to have a second battery
> that is behaving just like the new battery. When charging the full
> pack, these two batteries never seem to charge more slowly. By the time
> the rest of the batteries have reached a full charge and the regs are
> merrily blinking away at their 14.8V limit, these two batteries are
> still only at around 13.3-13.4 volts. I can connect them to my 12V
> charger to charge them individually and the voltage seems to come up
> just fine. It's only when charged in the full string that they seem to
> be obstinate. The weird thing though is that if I disconnect the
> charger and come back to check the resting voltage later, these two
> batteries are still at around 12.87 volts or so, which is a hair lower
> than the other batteries but still within 0.05V and apparently fully
> charged.
>
> So.... Which batteries are functioning properly? Is the entire rest of
> my pack coming up to the 14.8V max voltage too quickly, and these two
> are the only batteries working correctly? A sign of sulfation maybe??
> Or is the majority of my pack fine and it's just these two individual
> batteries that are acting up? Any explanations for exactly what might
> be going on here and what to do to get all of the batteries charging in
> a uniform manner?
>
>
> Thanks in advance for any help/advice.
>
> -Bryan
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
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Joined
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
I believe what you are experiencing is 'storage latency'.

You did not say what type of battery you have.

If you trickle charge them all day or all night at 2% to 4% of the 20 hour
capacity, they should come up in one to three treatments.

If they are Orbitals, Optimas or 28 AHr Hawkers, you can use ~1 amp for the
trickle current.

Leave the regulators on all the batteries to protect them and let the
charger run overnight or all day.

If ALL the regulators are blinking in the morning, you accomplished your
goal.

If they do not come up the first time, repeat the trickle treatment after a
discharge/bulk charge cycle.

Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Former owner of 48 Volt Fiesta
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[email protected]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan" <[email protected]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 11:11 PM
Subject: [EVDL] need some help interpretting odd charging behavior


> I'm experiencing some odd battery behavior and I'm hoping perhaps
> someone can provide some expert advice to interpret what I'm seeing. I
> originally started with 28 batteries, however have only installed 24 due
> to space limitations. The twenty-four batteries that were installed in
> the car have been charged & discharged occasionally over the past year
> but for the most part the car has just been sitting during that time and
> so the batteries maybe got around a dozen cycles during that period. I
> managed to toast one of the batteries due to some carelessness on my
> part and replaced it with one of the "extra" batteries that had been
> sitting completely unused for that entire time. For the past month or
> so I have been driving the car on a daily basis without any trouble, but
> that new battery seems to require a bit of extra attention when charging
> and I'm trying to figure out if the problem is with the new battery or
> with the other batteries. Now, today, I seem to have a second battery
> that is behaving just like the new battery. When charging the full
> pack, these two batteries never seem to charge more slowly. By the time
> the rest of the batteries have reached a full charge and the regs are
> merrily blinking away at their 14.8V limit, these two batteries are
> still only at around 13.3-13.4 volts. I can connect them to my 12V
> charger to charge them individually and the voltage seems to come up
> just fine. It's only when charged in the full string that they seem to
> be obstinate. The weird thing though is that if I disconnect the
> charger and come back to check the resting voltage later, these two
> batteries are still at around 12.87 volts or so, which is a hair lower
> than the other batteries but still within 0.05V and apparently fully
> charged.
>
> So.... Which batteries are functioning properly? Is the entire rest of
> my pack coming up to the 14.8V max voltage too quickly, and these two
> are the only batteries working correctly? A sign of sulfation maybe??
> Or is the majority of my pack fine and it's just these two individual
> batteries that are acting up? Any explanations for exactly what might
> be going on here and what to do to get all of the batteries charging in
> a uniform manner?
>
>
> Thanks in advance for any help/advice.
>
> -Bryan
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
The batteries are Panasonic LC-X1228P, 28Ah sealed batteries. I'm
charging them with a PFC-30 with rudman regs on each battery set to
14.8V. I think the timer is starting when the regs start regulating,
but, even after manually charging the problem batteries, letting the
pack sit for a while and then reconnecting the main charger, they still
lag behind the rest of the pack. I just discovered last night that my
12V charger I have been using appears to be charging to 16V, so maybe
that's part of the problem? I came out last night after leaving the
charger connected for a couple hours at the 2A charge setting and it
sounded like the electrolyte was boiling away inside the battery. Is
that going to cause long-term damage? Now that I think about it, I did
give the "replacement" battery (the first one to start having this
problem) a good long charge with the 12V charger before installing it,
and the problem with the 2nd battery didn't appear until after I tried
to top it up with the 12V charger as well.

I'll have to check on the timer setting and current at the end of
charge, but in the meantime... are these 16V charges a likely cause of
this problem? I've got the problem batteries charging up atm with an
adjustable power supply set at 14.8V, so we'll see if they like the
lower voltage better. I'm still new to battery care, so appreciate any
suggestions/advice you can give.

-Bryan


Ralph Merwin wrote:

>Bryan,
>
>What kind of batteries do you have? What charger and regulators?
>
>How do you have the charger setup? What charge profile are you using?
>
>As for your pack, my guess is that the two batteries are not fully
>charged. Based on your description of an "older" battery in the pack
>showing the same problems as the "new" battery in the pack, I'd say
>your charge profile isn't well suited to the batteries, and that your
>entire pack may be undercharged.
>
>If you're using a PFC charger, does the timer start with regbus activity?
>How long is the timer set for? What is the pack current when the timer
>expires and the charger stops?
>
>Ralph
>
>
>Bryan writes:
>
>
>>I'm experiencing some odd battery behavior and I'm hoping perhaps
>>someone can provide some expert advice to interpret what I'm seeing. I
>>originally started with 28 batteries, however have only installed 24 due
>>to space limitations. The twenty-four batteries that were installed in
>>the car have been charged & discharged occasionally over the past year
>>but for the most part the car has just been sitting during that time and
>>so the batteries maybe got around a dozen cycles during that period. I
>>managed to toast one of the batteries due to some carelessness on my
>>part and replaced it with one of the "extra" batteries that had been
>>sitting completely unused for that entire time. For the past month or
>>so I have been driving the car on a daily basis without any trouble, but
>>that new battery seems to require a bit of extra attention when charging
>>and I'm trying to figure out if the problem is with the new battery or
>>with the other batteries. Now, today, I seem to have a second battery
>>that is behaving just like the new battery. When charging the full
>>pack, these two batteries never seem to charge more slowly. By the time
>>the rest of the batteries have reached a full charge and the regs are
>>merrily blinking away at their 14.8V limit, these two batteries are
>>still only at around 13.3-13.4 volts. I can connect them to my 12V
>>charger to charge them individually and the voltage seems to come up
>>just fine. It's only when charged in the full string that they seem to
>>be obstinate. The weird thing though is that if I disconnect the
>>charger and come back to check the resting voltage later, these two
>>batteries are still at around 12.87 volts or so, which is a hair lower
>>than the other batteries but still within 0.05V and apparently fully
>>charged.
>>
>>So.... Which batteries are functioning properly? Is the entire rest of
>>my pack coming up to the 14.8V max voltage too quickly, and these two
>>are the only batteries working correctly? A sign of sulfation maybe??
>>Or is the majority of my pack fine and it's just these two individual
>>batteries that are acting up? Any explanations for exactly what might
>>be going on here and what to do to get all of the batteries charging in
>>a uniform manner?
>>
>>
>>Thanks in advance for any help/advice.
>>
>>-Bryan
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>For subscription options, see
>>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

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Registered
Joined
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
How hot did they get?

Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Former owner of 48 Volt Fiesta
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[email protected]


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] need some help interpretting odd charging behavior


> The batteries are Panasonic LC-X1228P, 28Ah sealed batteries. I'm
> charging them with a PFC-30 with rudman regs on each battery set to
> 14.8V. I think the timer is starting when the regs start regulating,
> but, even after manually charging the problem batteries, letting the
> pack sit for a while and then reconnecting the main charger, they still
> lag behind the rest of the pack. I just discovered last night that my
> 12V charger I have been using appears to be charging to 16V, so maybe
> that's part of the problem? I came out last night after leaving the
> charger connected for a couple hours at the 2A charge setting and it
> sounded like the electrolyte was boiling away inside the battery. Is
> that going to cause long-term damage? Now that I think about it, I did
> give the "replacement" battery (the first one to start having this
> problem) a good long charge with the 12V charger before installing it,
> and the problem with the 2nd battery didn't appear until after I tried
> to top it up with the 12V charger as well.
>
> I'll have to check on the timer setting and current at the end of
> charge, but in the meantime... are these 16V charges a likely cause of
> this problem? I've got the problem batteries charging up atm with an
> adjustable power supply set at 14.8V, so we'll see if they like the
> lower voltage better. I'm still new to battery care, so appreciate any
> suggestions/advice you can give.
>
> -Bryan
>
>
> Ralph Merwin wrote:
>
> >Bryan,
> >
> >What kind of batteries do you have? What charger and regulators?
> >
> >How do you have the charger setup? What charge profile are you using?
> >
> >As for your pack, my guess is that the two batteries are not fully
> >charged. Based on your description of an "older" battery in the pack
> >showing the same problems as the "new" battery in the pack, I'd say
> >your charge profile isn't well suited to the batteries, and that your
> >entire pack may be undercharged.
> >
> >If you're using a PFC charger, does the timer start with regbus activity?
> >How long is the timer set for? What is the pack current when the timer
> >expires and the charger stops?
> >
> >Ralph
> >
> >
> >Bryan writes:
> >
> >
> >>I'm experiencing some odd battery behavior and I'm hoping perhaps
> >>someone can provide some expert advice to interpret what I'm seeing. I
> >>originally started with 28 batteries, however have only installed 24 due
> >>to space limitations. The twenty-four batteries that were installed in
> >>the car have been charged & discharged occasionally over the past year
> >>but for the most part the car has just been sitting during that time and
> >>so the batteries maybe got around a dozen cycles during that period. I
> >>managed to toast one of the batteries due to some carelessness on my
> >>part and replaced it with one of the "extra" batteries that had been
> >>sitting completely unused for that entire time. For the past month or
> >>so I have been driving the car on a daily basis without any trouble, but
> >>that new battery seems to require a bit of extra attention when charging
> >>and I'm trying to figure out if the problem is with the new battery or
> >>with the other batteries. Now, today, I seem to have a second battery
> >>that is behaving just like the new battery. When charging the full
> >>pack, these two batteries never seem to charge more slowly. By the time
> >>the rest of the batteries have reached a full charge and the regs are
> >>merrily blinking away at their 14.8V limit, these two batteries are
> >>still only at around 13.3-13.4 volts. I can connect them to my 12V
> >>charger to charge them individually and the voltage seems to come up
> >>just fine. It's only when charged in the full string that they seem to
> >>be obstinate. The weird thing though is that if I disconnect the
> >>charger and come back to check the resting voltage later, these two
> >>batteries are still at around 12.87 volts or so, which is a hair lower
> >>than the other batteries but still within 0.05V and apparently fully
> >>charged.
> >>
> >>So.... Which batteries are functioning properly? Is the entire rest of
> >>my pack coming up to the 14.8V max voltage too quickly, and these two
> >>are the only batteries working correctly? A sign of sulfation maybe??
> >>Or is the majority of my pack fine and it's just these two individual
> >>batteries that are acting up? Any explanations for exactly what might
> >>be going on here and what to do to get all of the batteries charging in
> >>a uniform manner?
> >>
> >>
> >>Thanks in advance for any help/advice.
> >>
> >>-Bryan
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>For subscription options, see
> >>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >For subscription options, see
> >http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 
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