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Discussion Starter #1
Not sure if this was posted already or not:

Neil Young's plug-in turbine hybrid 1959 Lincoln "Lincvolt" started a fire a
week ago in his 10,000sf storage facility and causing nearly a million
dollars loss to his own memorabilia:
http://www.mercurynews.com/san-mateo-county/ci_16624108?nclick_check=1

Ironically, he was in Vegas at the time for the Specialty Equipment
Marketing Conference where he gave a talk about his Lincvolt. He commented:
"I love my car".

Let this be a lesson for us all to be very careful.

-mt

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Discussion Starter #2
I've been following this story with interest. However, I haven't seen
any details on either the battery pack or the BMS. Anyone know
anything more?

I do find it amusing that the EV is being hauled around the country for
display and only has 2,000 miles on it. "All hat and no cattle".

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 66 days 7 hours 43 minutes

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Discussion Starter #3
According to the www.lincvolt.com website (which is having bandwidth
issues right now) the "Electro-turbine Series-Hybrid now draws its
power from a Bio-Diesel fueled Capstone Microturbine generator, and a
UQM 150KW prime mover and super-safe Lithium-Iron-Phosphate
batteries".
The web site also says it "survived" the fire.

The following press release from Nov 16, 2010 says: "LincVolt suffered
a disastrous accidental fire stemming from human error. The car was
plugged in to charge and left unattended. The wall charging system was
not completely tested and had never been left unattended. A mistake
was made. It was not the fault of the car."

http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/Neil-Youngs-LincVolt-Survives-Wareh=
ouse-Fire-1354860.htm


On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Willie McKemie <[email protected]> wrot=
e:
> I've been following this story with interest. However, I haven't seen
> any details on either the battery pack or the BMS. Anyone know
> anything more?
>
> I do find it amusing that the EV is being hauled around the country for
> display and only has 2,000 miles on it. "All hat and no cattle".
>
> --
> Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 66 days 7 hours 43 minutes
>
> _______________________________________________
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Discussion Starter #4
It sounds like they're already starting a restoration. Its a great car.
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Discussion Starter #5
I know that Larry Dye of Electric Wheels Inc. in Salem put together the
battery pack for it, and he said that this car did not use a BMS of any
kind, due to the customer's perogative. That is probably why it ignited.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]



----- Original Message -----
From: "Willie McKemie" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Neil Young's Lincvolt ignites


> I've been following this story with interest. However, I haven't seen
> any details on either the battery pack or the BMS. Anyone know
> anything more?
>
> I do find it amusing that the EV is being hauled around the country for
> display and only has 2,000 miles on it. "All hat and no cattle".
>
> --
> Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 66 days 7 hours 43 minutes
>
> _______________________________________________
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Discussion Starter #6
joe <[email protected]> wrote:

> I know that Larry Dye of Electric Wheels Inc. in Salem put together the
> battery pack for it, and he said that this car did not use a BMS of any
> kind, due to the customer's perogative. That is probably why it ignited.
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: [email protected]
>
>
>
Some interesting stuff here on the LincVolt and BMS -
http://jackrickard.blogspot.com/2010/11/copy-this-linc-volt.html
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Discussion Starter #7
No, I think it is a total loss -- and a lot of damage was done to the building and some of it's other contents....

http://www.mercurynews.com/san-mateo-county/ci_16624108?nclick_check=1

Dave Hymers wrote:

> It sounds like they're already starting a restoration. Its a great car.
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Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/


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Discussion Starter #8
Wow I just saw this car at SEMA. It DID have an eLition BMS installed on the Thundersky 100Ah cells when I saw it. I talked to one of their guys for a while and I asked how the BMS was working. The jist of it was it was working well, but was not perfect. It also had a Manzanita Micro charger and I can't confirm this with the pictures I took, but I don't remember seeing anything plugged in to the regbus port on it, which could be used to interface with a BMS.

Unregulated charging of lithium batteries will do this. With Thundersky or Calb style safety valves they may not be able to release the pressure fast enough to prevent the cells from rupturing, hate to say it. Even if the safety valve can release this pressure the cell is going to get hot if you keep charging with enough current going in. Eventually you can melt the plastic right off the battery.

Despite what some may say you need a BMS with lihtium batteries and the charging system should not be able to work unless the BMS is functioning. That is the safe way.


Regards,
Ricky Suiter
Elite Power Solutions LLC
92 Saturn SC Conversion


---------------------------------
>I know that Larry Dye of Electric Wheels Inc. in Salem put together the
>battery pack for it, and he said that this car did not use a BMS of any
>kind, due to the customer's perogative. That is probably why it ignited.
>
>Joseph H. Strubhar
>
>Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
>E-mail: [email protected]





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Discussion Starter #9
True, but if you go to the lincvolt site (www.linkvolt.com) and check
the blog, there's an entry from yesterday where they talk about starting
the restoration. The main damage appears to be the back of the car and
they have two other Lincolns to use for donor parts.

--Rick

On 11/17/2010 8:09 PM, Neil Blanchard wrote:
> No, I think it is a total loss -- and a lot of damage was done to the
> building and some of it's other contents....
>
> http://www.mercurynews.com/san-mateo-county/ci_16624108?nclick_check=1
>
>
Dave Hymers wrote:
>
>> It sounds like they're already starting a restoration. Its a great
>> car.

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Discussion Starter #10
Yeah, the press release details how they are bringing in 2 other parts cars
for all the panels and detail work ...
the UQM prime mover and capstone turbine are apparently fine.
I'm going to assume that the battery pack / charger and other bits are toast
;)
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Discussion Starter #11
"It DID have an eLition BMS installed on the Thundersky 100Ah cells when I
saw it. I talked to one of their guys for a while and I asked how the BMS
was working. The jist of it was it was working well, but was not perfect. It
also had a Manzanita Micro charger and I can't confirm this with the
pictures I took, but I don't remember seeing anything plugged in to the
regbus port on it"
It is not unusual to have the bms trigger an AC relay to cut power to the
charger rather than using the regbus input, so it they may have done that.
Interesting how, in the absence of clear evidence, people who distrust bms
systems assume the bms was the cause to justify their position, and those
who think a bms is indispensable assume the fire was due to the lack of a
bms to justify their position. I think it is counter-productive to
speculate on causes. The website mentioned "operator error", with no
elaboration of just what that means.
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Neil-Young-s-Lincvolt-ignites-tp3046908p3048633.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Discussion Starter #12
tomw wrote:

>
> "It DID have an eLition BMS installed on the Thundersky 100Ah cells
> when I
> saw it. I talked to one of their guys for a while and I asked how
> the BMS
> was working. The jist of it was it was working well, but was not
> perfect. It
> also had a Manzanita Micro charger and I can't confirm this with the
> pictures I took, but I don't remember seeing anything plugged in to
> the
> regbus port on it"


> It is not unusual to have the bms trigger an AC relay to cut power
> to the
> charger rather than using the regbus input, so it they may have done
> that.
> Interesting how, in the absence of clear evidence, people who
> distrust bms
> systems assume the bms was the cause to justify their position, and
> those
> who think a bms is indispensable assume the fire was due to the lack
> of a
> bms to justify their position. I think it is counter-productive to
> speculate on causes. The website mentioned "operator error", with no
> elaboration of just what that means.
> --

Well I think speculation is all your going to get at this point. I
think its clear that the car was left plugged in, and that the way it
was configured, that it should not have been left plugged in. That is
what they mean by "operator error".

Let's speculate. If it did have an Elithion BMS and Manzinita Charger
there are four possibilities.

1) A component of the BMS failed and caused the fire (Jack Rickard
would suggest this).

2) The BMS was not wired correctly to the charger to shut down the
charger.

3) The BMS was not programmed correctly.

4) The Manzanita was not set to respond to the Elithion BMS.

We may never know, but they are all real and likely possibilities with
this configuration. Possibilities 2-4 could have been eliminated by
thoroughly testing the system. If any of those resulted in the fire,
then that is just sloppy workmanship. Possibility #1 is is the kicker.

What are the failure modes on the Elithion BMS? Are they all fail
safe? Is it possible that if any of the components of this BMS system
fail... the result if a fire?

I don't subscribe to the "no BMS is better" opinion, but Jack has an
important point to make in that many of the BMS circuits being offered
out there are not fail safe. Especially the cheap and simple shunt
regulator ones.

Also, if the charger for some reason does not shut off, what happens
over a long period of time with say 100 shunts all shunting their
maximum current inside an enclosed battery box? How much heat is
generated.

All these things have to be considered.






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Discussion Starter #13
Where can I find that turbine or any turbine suitable for generating
electricity? I read an article about a jaguar concept car with turbines and
4 electric wheel motors - very cool!

Myles Twete <[email protected]> wrote:

> Not sure if this was posted already or not:
>
> Neil Young's plug-in turbine hybrid 1959 Lincoln "Lincvolt" started a fire
> a
> week ago in his 10,000sf storage facility and causing nearly a million
> dollars loss to his own memorabilia:
> http://www.mercurynews.com/san-mateo-county/ci_16624108?nclick_check=1
>
> Ironically, he was in Vegas at the time for the Specialty Equipment
> Marketing Conference where he gave a talk about his Lincvolt. He
> commented:
> "I love my car".
>
> Let this be a lesson for us all to be very careful.
>
> -mt
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
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>



--
Geoff Pullinger
[email protected]
http://www.evalbum.com/2445
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Discussion Starter #14
Do I remember wrongly that Elithion's BMS was not a Battery Management
System, but merely a Battery Monitoring System? There's a world of
difference, and if I am correct, would be the probable cause!

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]


----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:00 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Neil Young's Lincvolt ignites


>
>
tomw wrote:
>
>>
>> "It DID have an eLition BMS installed on the Thundersky 100Ah cells
>> when I
>> saw it. I talked to one of their guys for a while and I asked how
>> the BMS
>> was working. The jist of it was it was working well, but was not
>> perfect. It
>> also had a Manzanita Micro charger and I can't confirm this with the
>> pictures I took, but I don't remember seeing anything plugged in to
>> the
>> regbus port on it"
>
>
>> It is not unusual to have the bms trigger an AC relay to cut power
>> to the
>> charger rather than using the regbus input, so it they may have done
>> that.
>> Interesting how, in the absence of clear evidence, people who
>> distrust bms
>> systems assume the bms was the cause to justify their position, and
>> those
>> who think a bms is indispensable assume the fire was due to the lack
>> of a
>> bms to justify their position. I think it is counter-productive to
>> speculate on causes. The website mentioned "operator error", with no
>> elaboration of just what that means.
>> --
>
> Well I think speculation is all your going to get at this point. I
> think its clear that the car was left plugged in, and that the way it
> was configured, that it should not have been left plugged in. That is
> what they mean by "operator error".
>
> Let's speculate. If it did have an Elithion BMS and Manzinita Charger
> there are four possibilities.
>
> 1) A component of the BMS failed and caused the fire (Jack Rickard
> would suggest this).
>
> 2) The BMS was not wired correctly to the charger to shut down the
> charger.
>
> 3) The BMS was not programmed correctly.
>
> 4) The Manzanita was not set to respond to the Elithion BMS.
>
> We may never know, but they are all real and likely possibilities with
> this configuration. Possibilities 2-4 could have been eliminated by
> thoroughly testing the system. If any of those resulted in the fire,
> then that is just sloppy workmanship. Possibility #1 is is the kicker.
>
> What are the failure modes on the Elithion BMS? Are they all fail
> safe? Is it possible that if any of the components of this BMS system
> fail... the result if a fire?
>
> I don't subscribe to the "no BMS is better" opinion, but Jack has an
> important point to make in that many of the BMS circuits being offered
> out there are not fail safe. Especially the cheap and simple shunt
> regulator ones.
>
> Also, if the charger for some reason does not shut off, what happens
> over a long period of time with say 100 shunts all shunting their
> maximum current inside an enclosed battery box? How much heat is
> generated.
>
> All these things have to be considered.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Discussion Starter #15
No, it is a battery management system. It uses shunt resistors on each cell
and also can control battery chargers either directly or by controlling a
relay that cuts power to the charger.

For what it's worth I have an electric car that uses the Elithion BMS and an
ElCon PFC4000W charger and the car is now more than a year past conversion
and has not caught fire or ruined a cell.

joe <[email protected]> wrote:

> Do I remember wrongly that Elithion's BMS was not a Battery Management
> System, but merely a Battery Monitoring System? There's a world of
> difference, and if I am correct, would be the probable cause!
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: [email protected]
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Neil Young's Lincvolt ignites
>
>
> >
> > On Nov 18, 2010, at 8:26 AM, tomw wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> "It DID have an eLition BMS installed on the Thundersky 100Ah cells
> >> when I
> >> saw it. I talked to one of their guys for a while and I asked how
> >> the BMS
> >> was working. The jist of it was it was working well, but was not
> >> perfect. It
> >> also had a Manzanita Micro charger and I can't confirm this with the
> >> pictures I took, but I don't remember seeing anything plugged in to
> >> the
> >> regbus port on it"
> >
> >
> >> It is not unusual to have the bms trigger an AC relay to cut power
> >> to the
> >> charger rather than using the regbus input, so it they may have done
> >> that.
> >> Interesting how, in the absence of clear evidence, people who
> >> distrust bms
> >> systems assume the bms was the cause to justify their position, and
> >> those
> >> who think a bms is indispensable assume the fire was due to the lack
> >> of a
> >> bms to justify their position. I think it is counter-productive to
> >> speculate on causes. The website mentioned "operator error", with no
> >> elaboration of just what that means.
> >> --
> >
> > Well I think speculation is all your going to get at this point. I
> > think its clear that the car was left plugged in, and that the way it
> > was configured, that it should not have been left plugged in. That is
> > what they mean by "operator error".
> >
> > Let's speculate. If it did have an Elithion BMS and Manzinita Charger
> > there are four possibilities.
> >
> > 1) A component of the BMS failed and caused the fire (Jack Rickard
> > would suggest this).
> >
> > 2) The BMS was not wired correctly to the charger to shut down the
> > charger.
> >
> > 3) The BMS was not programmed correctly.
> >
> > 4) The Manzanita was not set to respond to the Elithion BMS.
> >
> > We may never know, but they are all real and likely possibilities with
> > this configuration. Possibilities 2-4 could have been eliminated by
> > thoroughly testing the system. If any of those resulted in the fire,
> > then that is just sloppy workmanship. Possibility #1 is is the kicker.
> >
> > What are the failure modes on the Elithion BMS? Are they all fail
> > safe? Is it possible that if any of the components of this BMS system
> > fail... the result if a fire?
> >
> > I don't subscribe to the "no BMS is better" opinion, but Jack has an
> > important point to make in that many of the BMS circuits being offered
> > out there are not fail safe. Especially the cheap and simple shunt
> > regulator ones.
> >
> > Also, if the charger for some reason does not shut off, what happens
> > over a long period of time with say 100 shunts all shunting their
> > maximum current inside an enclosed battery box? How much heat is
> > generated.
> >
> > All these things have to be considered.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Discussion Starter #16
joe <[email protected]> wrote:
> I know that Larry Dye of Electric Wheels Inc. in Salem put together the
> battery pack for it, and he said that this car did not use a BMS of any
> kind, due to the customer's perogative. That is probably why it ignited.

Almost certainly, if true. And you could lay the blame for that at
the door of the one or two "experts" who loudly shout that you
shouldn't use a BMS!

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Discussion Starter #17
The BMS / No BMS debate is a good exercise. It will help bring sanity.
Complex Rube Goldberg type BMS designs are more dangerous than no BMS
at all. No BMS at all is dangerous if no care is taken in watching
your batteries closely. A balance will be struck in this industry and
everyone will follow it. Until then the BMS / No BMS debates will
flare often. That is ok. It is needed to get the best plan to float to
the surface. I say keep the debate alive. We need it.
John Scrivner


Evan Tuer <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 5:43 PM, joe <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I know that Larry Dye of Electric Wheels Inc. in Salem put together the
>> battery pack for it, and he said that this car did not use a BMS of any
>> kind, due to the customer's perogative. That is probably why it ignited.
>
> Almost certainly, if true. And you could lay the blame for that at
> the door of the one or two "experts" who loudly shout that you
> shouldn't use a BMS!
>
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