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Discussion Starter #1
One thing is clear you can't use a ac/dc motor to run your car for a long time, because many factor are add to the power output on your batteries system.
What can be done is design a air car with a ac/dc compressor on board for charging, this will change the electric car completely!
Using my patent design engine that can runs on air would be one great goal for the electric car
This new design will help the EV world, by having a system in place in a control loop like a air conditioner unit.
With a high and low pressure that will store energy from the ac compressor to the tank and control the pressure going in to the Rotary engine, this would force the piston 350 degree to the exhaust port where the vacuum low side pulls it out for next firing cycle.
This would have a high side of 400 psi and a low side, like a basic ac cooling system.
If you have a 13" rotary motor that has a 1x1 inch piston at 400 psi? and a 1" crank and at?3600 rpms.
1x(13/2)-1 x 400/12=200 foot pounds of torque at TDC
at 3600 rpms = (200x3600)/5252= 137.09 hp

The ac/dc motor is turning the compressor untill charging is done, at?high psi the?system?will turn off and at? low psi it runs at full power to recharge.
This will always have the same output of power load,?there is no different of how you drive, if?it is up hill or down.
Down hill could be use for a Jake Brake system for recharging air tank, when the brake is?on the drive shaft is turning the compressor for recharge.
This system could really be how to use the ev to run your next car.
The rotary compressor is great for this job, running from a?ac/dc motor will be like having a compressor at home.
When? air tool?is use the compressor kicks in to recharge?your tank and then shut down.
This is a better way to run your next EV................
Tom


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Discussion Starter #3
>From what I've read, storing energy as compressed air is very inefficient compared to batteries/electric motors.

----- Original Message ----
What can be done is design a air car with a ac/dc compressor on board
for charging, this will change the electric car completely!
Using my patent design engine that can runs on air would be one great
goal for the electric car
This new design will help the EV world, by having a system in place in
a control loop like a air conditioner unit.



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Discussion Starter #4
[email protected] wrote:
> One thing is clear you can't use a ac/dc motor to run your car for a long time,
> What can be done is design a air car with a ac/dc compressor on board for charging, this will change the electric car completely!
>
unless you can suspend conservation of energy you only add great loss
and complexity by such a design. it is obviously more effective and
elegant to drive on the mechanical energy of the electric motor directly
than indirectly by way of air compressor and air piston motor. so much
so that I'm more than a little surprised that anyone would suggest such
a thing. try to think in terms of efficiency and energy loss. each step
in the chain is a loss and compressor/air piston is a great loss

electric alone might be 5 times more efficient than what you suggest

Dan

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Discussion Starter #6
"This will always have the same output of power load,?"

So going down a hill you recharge the tank? Wouldn't this be
considered Drag when you're actually supplying the "motor" air? How
could your power output be constant up or down a hill?

Also, the average power going from point A to B to C and back to A is
zero, because you don't use power down a hill, but you use it up a
hill. If what you are saying is correct, you have the same power
output of the motor down a hill that you do up it, so you're
continuously putting energy into the air system?

I Know what you're trying to say, but you REALLY REALLY NEED TO READ
WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. Please proofread and get your facts straight.

Also, compressed air is inefficient, Lets say it takes a 1hp motor 10
min to charge up a tank to 500PSI. And in order to get your "1x1
piston" rotating at 3600 RPM, you'd need to displace x amount of air
in the motor per RPM. Lets say its one square inch of displacement per
RPM for a 1x1 piston, thats 3600 cubic inches per minute. Can your
1HP motor sypply that feed? and will it ever shut off?

I want to see this in action, until you bring something to the table
and prove it, don't expect alot of the engineers here to JIVE with
what you're trying to tell us.

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Discussion Starter #7
Hi Tom,

I suggest you do the math (including the Physics) of
your proposal first.
If you do not believe the exceedingly bad outcome of the
math, then simply build a (small scale) prototype or
research the findings of many different vehicles powered
by air over the last century, including trains in coal mines
(the *only* reason they were used is that air was the only
guaranteed motor not to ignite possible mine gas, despite
the large drawbacks of air powered engines)
and the recent escapades of MDI and aircar.com
which I used to support after my visit to the MDI factory
in Carros, France - until I figured out that they would
never be anywhere close to the efficiency of an EV.

Note that regen braking is the way that an EV re-uses the
potential energy that is lost when descending (it turns
automatically into kinetic energy without a braking action)
so that is already taken care of in EV world.

>From your description I could not imagine how your system
would work or what principle makes it more efficient than
the most efficient system that I know - the EV.
Please explain how you want to improve it, my guess
is that you want to carry an air tank and convert air
pressure to electricity on the way using a compressor in reverse.
That is a very inefficient way, especially in a 1-cylinder
setup, do the math and yo uwill find out where the physics
work against you. Hint: where does the heat come from
while expanding the air?

Not only is it inefficient, but using the same size and
weight in batteries will give you at least as much range
extension and very little losses.
Now the only thing I am waiting for is a reasonably
priced EEstor working at voltages that my motor controller
and a charger would accept, for example between 300 and
500V DC and the EV would even be better in efficiency,
in fact it would be impossible to beat unless with
exotic solutions like super-conduction.

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 2:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] New way to power your car (Tommey Reed)

One thing is clear you can't use a ac/dc motor to run your car for a long time, because many factor are add to the power output on your batteries system.
What can be done is design a air car with a ac/dc compressor on board for charging, this will change the electric car completely!
Using my patent design engine that can runs on air would be one great goal for the electric car This new design will help the EV world, by having a system in place in a control loop like a air conditioner unit.
With a high and low pressure that will store energy from the ac compressor to the tank and control the pressure going in to the Rotary engine, this would force the piston 350 degree to the exhaust port where the vacuum low side pulls it out for next firing cycle.
This would have a high side of 400 psi and a low side, like a basic ac cooling system.
If you have a 13" rotary motor that has a 1x1 inch piston at 400 psi? and a 1" crank and at?3600 rpms.
1x(13/2)-1 x 400/12=200 foot pounds of torque at TDC at 3600 rpms = (200x3600)/5252= 137.09 hp

The ac/dc motor is turning the compressor untill charging is done, at?high psi the?system?will turn off and at? low psi it runs at full power to recharge.
This will always have the same output of power load,?there is no different of how you drive, if?it is up hill or down.
Down hill could be use for a Jake Brake system for recharging air tank, when the brake is?on the drive shaft is turning the compressor for recharge.
This system could really be how to use the ev to run your next car.
The rotary compressor is great for this job, running from a?ac/dc motor will be like having a compressor at home.
When? air tool?is use the compressor kicks in to recharge?your tank and then shut down.
This is a better way to run your next EV................
Tom


?
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Discussion Starter #10
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Discussion Starter #11
I can't tell, are you joking or serious?

If you're joking....good one!!

If you're serious, have you bothered to check into how incredibly
inefficient it is to compress air?

Adding the system you describe would indeed make a drastic change in an
EV. It would probably cut it's range in 1/2, if not more.

Personallym I can think of dozens of cheaper and much simpler ways to
reduce an EV's range.

> One thing is clear you can't use a ac/dc motor to run your car for a long
> time, because many factor are add to the power output on your batteries
> system.
> What can be done is design a air car with a ac/dc compressor on board for
> charging, this will change the electric car completely!
> Using my patent design engine that can runs on air would be one great goal
> for the electric car
> This new design will help the EV world, by having a system in place in a
> control loop like a air conditioner unit.
> With a high and low pressure that will store energy from the ac compressor
> to the tank and control the pressure going in to the Rotary engine, this
> would force the piston 350 degree to the exhaust port where the vacuum low
> side pulls it out for next firing cycle.
> This would have a high side of 400 psi and a low side, like a basic ac
> cooling system.
> If you have a 13" rotary motor that has a 1x1 inch piston at 400 psi? and
> a 1" crank and at?3600 rpms.
> 1x(13/2)-1 x 400/12=200 foot pounds of torque at TDC
> at 3600 rpms = (200x3600)/5252= 137.09 hp
>
> The ac/dc motor is turning the compressor untill charging is done, at?high
> psi the?system?will turn off and at? low psi it runs at full power to
> recharge.
> This will always have the same output of power load,?there is no different
> of how you drive, if?it is up hill or down.
> Down hill could be use for a Jake Brake system for recharging air tank,
> when the brake is?on the drive shaft is turning the compressor for
> recharge.
> This system could really be how to use the ev to run your next car.
> The rotary compressor is great for this job, running from a?ac/dc motor
> will be like having a compressor at home.
> When? air tool?is use the compressor kicks in to recharge?your tank and
> then shut down.
> This is a better way to run your next EV................
> Tom
>
>
> ?
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Discussion Starter #12
Well Ford is supposed to make a "hydraulic hybrid" F150 which is
actually compressed air storage. It doesn't compress the air with a
compressor though, it has a highly pressurized tank which never gains or
loses air. Instead they add hydraulic fluid and take it out (under
thousands of PSI) to a hydraulic motor and to a low pressure reservoir.

It is limited by the volume of hydraulic fluid capacity in both the tank
and catch reservoir. Like most hybrids, the point is not primary
storage but to allow a high efficiency engine with poor impulse or poor
low-end power to be driveable.

Danny

Peter VanDerWal wrote:

>I can't tell, are you joking or serious?
>
>If you're joking....good one!!
>
>If you're serious, have you bothered to check into how incredibly
>inefficient it is to compress air?
>
>Adding the system you describe would indeed make a drastic change in an
>EV. It would probably cut it's range in 1/2, if not more.
>
>Personallym I can think of dozens of cheaper and much simpler ways to
>reduce an EV's range.
>
>
>
>>One thing is clear you can't use a ac/dc motor to run your car for a long
>>time, because many factor are add to the power output on your batteries
>>system.
>>What can be done is design a air car with a ac/dc compressor on board for
>>charging, this will change the electric car completely!
>>Using my patent design engine that can runs on air would be one great goal
>>for the electric car
>>This new design will help the EV world, by having a system in place in a
>>control loop like a air conditioner unit.
>>With a high and low pressure that will store energy from the ac compressor
>>to the tank and control the pressure going in to the Rotary engine, this
>>would force the piston 350 degree to the exhaust port where the vacuum low
>>side pulls it out for next firing cycle.
>>This would have a high side of 400 psi and a low side, like a basic ac
>>cooling system.
>>If you have a 13" rotary motor that has a 1x1 inch piston at 400 psi? and
>>a 1" crank and at?3600 rpms.
>>1x(13/2)-1 x 400/12=200 foot pounds of torque at TDC
>>at 3600 rpms = (200x3600)/5252= 137.09 hp
>>
>>The ac/dc motor is turning the compressor untill charging is done, at?high
>>psi the?system?will turn off and at? low psi it runs at full power to
>>recharge.
>>This will always have the same output of power load,?there is no different
>>of how you drive, if?it is up hill or down.
>>Down hill could be use for a Jake Brake system for recharging air tank,
>>when the brake is?on the drive shaft is turning the compressor for
>>recharge.
>>This system could really be how to use the ev to run your next car.
>>The rotary compressor is great for this job, running from a?ac/dc motor
>>will be like having a compressor at home.
>>When? air tool?is use the compressor kicks in to recharge?your tank and
>>then shut down.
>>This is a better way to run your next EV................
>>Tom
>>
>>
>>?
>>________________________________________________________________________
>>Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- Unlimited storage and
>>industry-leading spam and email virus protection.
>>_______________________________________________
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>>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

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Discussion Starter #13
Awhile back I tried to do some calculations on the available energy.
Well, a 12L scuba tank stores about 1/3rd a kwh. Recovering that is
difficult, we are dealing with a very wide range of pressures and a
central problem is air cools as it expands which lowers the pressure.
It is difficult to raise the temp of air as it's being used. Likewise,
it warms while compressed and assumes a higher pressure, the compresser
does all the work involved in getting air up to this high pressure state
only to see it cool down and contract so the tank is no longer full.

It is clear far larger volumes than a scuba tank would be needed. This
would require a remarkable pressure vessel.

It's also quite dangerous. There are a number of stories where a scuba
tank burst from a long stress crack, it'll destroy a small structure
like a garage. About like a grenade really. So man the idea of
something tens of times bigger's kinda scary.

Much like EVs, the storage capacity is limited and the potential
capacity is unclear (depends heavily on vehicle design), but the cycle
efficiency is not competitive with EVs. Then again, a tank won't wear
out like a batt, although that's debatable, aluminum does stress
fracture, maybe carbon-fiber tanks won't be subject to wear though.

Danny

Dan Frederiksen wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>
>
>>One thing is clear you can't use a ac/dc motor to run your car for a long time,
>>What can be done is design a air car with a ac/dc compressor on board for charging, this will change the electric car completely!
>>
>>
>>
>unless you can suspend conservation of energy you only add great loss
>and complexity by such a design. it is obviously more effective and
>elegant to drive on the mechanical energy of the electric motor directly
>than indirectly by way of air compressor and air piston motor. so much
>so that I'm more than a little surprised that anyone would suggest such
>a thing. try to think in terms of efficiency and energy loss. each step
>in the chain is a loss and compressor/air piston is a great loss
>
>electric alone might be 5 times more efficient than what you suggest
>
>Dan
>
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Discussion Starter #14
check out http://www.greenenergytv.com/watchnow.html
on the aircar particularly the wankel style compressor
in the second part of the segment. In industrial
applications it is growing appeal whethetr wasteful or
not because air outlets are available throughout most
factories from one central electric compressor or many
small ones. I think that is all I will contribute to
this way offtopic thread.

--- Danny Miller wrote:

> Well Ford is supposed to make a "hydraulic hybrid"
> F150 which is
> actually compressed air storage. It doesn't
> compress the air with a
> compressor though, it has a highly pressurized tank
> which never gains or
> loses air. Instead they add hydraulic fluid and
> take it out (under
> thousands of PSI) to a hydraulic motor and to a low
> pressure reservoir.
>
> It is limited by the volume of hydraulic fluid
> capacity in both the tank
> and catch reservoir. Like most hybrids, the point
> is not primary
> storage but to allow a high efficiency engine with
> poor impulse or poor
> low-end power to be driveable.
>
> Danny
>
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> >I can't tell, are you joking or serious?
> >
> >If you're joking....good one!!
> >
> >If you're serious, have you bothered to check into
> how incredibly
> >inefficient it is to compress air?
> >
> >Adding the system you describe would indeed make a
> drastic change in an
> >EV. It would probably cut it's range in 1/2, if
> not more.
> >
> >Personallym I can think of dozens of cheaper and
> much simpler ways to
> >reduce an EV's range.
> >
> >
> >
> >>One thing is clear you can't use a ac/dc motor to
> run your car for a long
> >>time, because many factor are add to the power
> output on your batteries
> >>system.
> >>What can be done is design a air car with a ac/dc
> compressor on board for
> >>charging, this will change the electric car
> completely!
> >>Using my patent design engine that can runs on air
> would be one great goal
> >>for the electric car
> >>This new design will help the EV world, by having
> a system in place in a
> >>control loop like a air conditioner unit.
> >>With a high and low pressure that will store
> energy from the ac compressor
> >>to the tank and control the pressure going in to
> the Rotary engine, this
> >>would force the piston 350 degree to the exhaust
> port where the vacuum low
> >>side pulls it out for next firing cycle.
> >>This would have a high side of 400 psi and a low
> side, like a basic ac
> >>cooling system.
> >>If you have a 13" rotary motor that has a 1x1 inch
> piston at 400 psi? and
> >>a 1" crank and at?3600 rpms.
> >>1x(13/2)-1 x 400/12=200 foot pounds of torque at
> TDC
> >>at 3600 rpms = (200x3600)/5252= 137.09 hp
> >>
> >>The ac/dc motor is turning the compressor untill
> charging is done, at?high
> >>psi the?system?will turn off and at? low psi it
> runs at full power to
> >>recharge.
> >>This will always have the same output of power
> load,?there is no different
> >>of how you drive, if?it is up hill or down.
> >>Down hill could be use for a Jake Brake system for
> recharging air tank,
> >>when the brake is?on the drive shaft is turning
> the compressor for
> >>recharge.
> >>This system could really be how to use the ev to
> run your next car.
> >>The rotary compressor is great for this job,
> running from a?ac/dc motor
> >>will be like having a compressor at home.
> >>When? air tool?is use the compressor kicks in to
> recharge?your tank and
> >>then shut down.
> >>This is a better way to run your next
> EV................
> >>Tom
> >>
> >>
> >>?
>
>>________________________________________________________________________
> >>Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- Unlimited
> storage and
> >>industry-leading spam and email virus protection.
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>For subscription options, see
> >>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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