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Discussion Starter #1
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Beano -- 1981 Ford Escort EV
EValbum 1010Ted Sanders
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Discussion Starter #2
Hi all
wonder if people on this list could help. I'm building an electric motorcy=
cle from a 1991 Yamaha Ninja. Bought a book to help me... I think I would =
like to have more variety to choose from for batteries than run of the mill=
car batteries... would like to look into LiIon, NiCad and am still quite i=
gnorant of how many to use to get the power I want out of them. Any help o=
ut there, some direction.
Thanks
Robert
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Discussion Starter #3
Car batteries will not hold up under deep-cycle use, and will be a waste of =

money, even though initially cheaper.

LiIon is good for a bike, as you don't need so much of them to make it =

cost-prohibitive.

BTW: Yamaha doesn't make a Ninja, but Kawasaki does.

-Phil
----- Original Message ----- =

From: "Robert Smith" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 9:43 PM
Subject: [EVDL] (no subject)



Hi all
wonder if people on this list could help. I'm building an electric =

motorcycle from a 1991 Yamaha Ninja. Bought a book to help me... I think I =

would like to have more variety to choose from for batteries than run of th=
e =

mill car batteries... would like to look into LiIon, NiCad and am still =

quite ignorant of how many to use to get the power I want out of them. Any =

help out there, some direction.
Thanks
Robert
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Kick back and relax with hot games and cool activities at the Messenger =

Caf=E9.
http://www.cafemessenger.com?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_SeptWLtagline
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Discussion Starter #4
Um...First, wouldn't you actually have to OWN an EV to do that?
=

Second, I don't come here to watch you spar with the moderator. I come here=
for information. If you disagree with the way the list is run, then discus=
s it with the moderator offline, leave, or start your own list. You seem to=
enjoy the sound of your own keystrokes so much, that would seem to be the =
best solution.
=

Rich A.
=

=

>Message: 29>Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 00:41:25 +0200>From: Dan Frederiksen <d=
[email protected]>>Subject: Re: [EVDL] PLEASE NO ICE MOTORCYCLE DISCU=
SSION (Was Silent>vehicles)>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]=
sjsu.edu>>Message-ID: <[email protected]>>Content-Type: text/plain=
; charset=3DISO-8859-1; format=3Dflowed >I'm all for being serious and on t=
opic David but try to realize that adding sound to an EV because it's too s=
ilent is an EV development issue.I've also considered adding a sound system=
with synthetic ICE motor sounds just to rub it in the face of ICE owners :=
) surely EV issues within reason.<snip>
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Discussion Starter #5
I'm not using a Raptor and probably have a different charger than you but h=
ere's how it's done in my E-Beetle:
=

The precharge circuit (2 60 watt lightbulbs) are kept separate from the pac=
k until I flip the toggle switch that's wired in.
The controller is kept disconnected from the pack by a Kilovac 200 contacto=
r (similar to the big Albright kind) and that's attached to the key switch.
=

Rich A.
=

=

Message: 25Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 11:44:29 -0400From: "storm connors" <storm=
[email protected]>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ground leak- solved- Raptor at rootTo=
: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>Message-ID:<f7ed9f6=
[email protected]>Content-Type: text/pla=
in; charset=3DISO-8859-1 Thanks Roland,Yes, I agree that keeping the contro=
ller isolated from the pack whilecharging is a good idea. That is why I too=
k your advice and put arelay on the line feeding the precharge portion of t=
he controller.With the precharge not connected to the battery pack, I got n=
earlyfull pack voltage between the pack positive and the chassis. When Icon=
nect the precharge to the pack the potential between the pack andthe chassi=
s goes away. This effect was also observed with the motor disconnected from=
thecontroller. Also note that the controller case is not connected to thec=
hassis. I guess I do not understand what goes on in the Raptor prechargecir=
cuit that could cause these seemingly bizarre effects.
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Discussion Starter #7
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Discussion Starter #8
Tommey, sorry, but your reports of your motor experiments are off-topic for
the EVDL.? Your posts cause a great deal of further off-topic discussion and
are disruptive to the list.

If you have an EV or are interested in acquiring or building one, and wish to
discuss EVs, then the EVDL is for you.? However, please find another place to
post your experimental motor reports.? Do not continue to post them here.

Thanks.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator
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Discussion Starter #9
I hate to perpetuate a thread that appears to have no technical value to the forum but I really get frustrated when I see misinformation published at what is essentially a knowledge "watering hole". It's for that reason that I wish someone would crash the Wikipedia servers.

I digress-

Michaela nobody watches racing or the space program for the purpose of deciding what "product" to buy. The advancements and developments gained by these activites are often not specifically told to the consumer. It's simply that when you go to a cell phone vendor, car dealer or computer/technology store you see laptops advertised with "Now, twice the battery life of our previous model!" or "We've improved our MPG and horsepower by 30%!" They don't bother to tell you that these advancements came about through racing development or whatever.

You say that you have no knowledge and no time to develop something for yourself that you NEED and that you are forced to sit on the sidelines and wait for someone to sell it to you. That is the surest formula for perpetuating the sale of a product that you DON'T need or want! The only way to force any company to build what you demand is to NOT BUY what they're currently selling.

Big Oil says "We can charge what we want because people HAVE to buy gasoline"
Big Auto says "We can build, sell and charge what we want because people HAVE to drive to work"
Big Utility says "Now that we've been deregulated we can charge what we want because people HAVE to heat & power their homes."

That's a bunch of junk. The individual consumer has more power over these seemingly unavoidable purchases than you think.

Do you think we all come here with the know-how to build EV's? Many of us had never given it a thought until recently but we pick up a book and we READ. We inquire, collaborate with our neighbors, we make pests of ourselves, we learn. We take advantage of the greatest information and communication resource of our time- the Internet. We scrimp and save, and take time away from our jobs and familes to build these things because in the end, it's about freedom. I refuse to be oppressed by a company just as sure I refuse to be oppressed by a government. No one is going to tell me I HAVE to buy gasoline, a 13 MPG car, or even something as vital as electricity. I WILL free myself of these corporations, at least as much as humanly possible. I don't even have the luxury of living on a farm or a ranch far away from an HOA and all it's silly rules. I live in a townhouse in DC/Baltimore suburbs!

So how am I going to do this?

I'm going to fight my HOA and install enough solar panels to zero out my power bill (along with other power saving measures)
I refuse to buy another NEW vehicle until an AMERICAN auto manufacturer builds one that I want to buy. I will drive electric, ride the rails and recycle used vehicles until they do. I refuse to buy one from a foreign manufacturer even if a desireable model becomes available. I'll brew biodiesel or whatever I have to do to get by.
I'm going to take advantage of every new method that comes along.
I'm going to nag my legislators at every level.
I'm going to read, read, read and learn all I can and much more.

I'm as short on time and as thin on knowledge as you are. Just because I'm not a farmer doesn't mean that I have all this extra leisure time to devote to research and development. I work 10 hours a day and waste 3 hours a day commuting. On top of all that, I'm a reservist so I lose at least one weekend a month and one month a year to military duty. Sometimes more when I get sent to the Persian Gulf on missions to "spread democracy" to people that don't want it and don't know what to do with it. Nobody said that being a free citizen was easy, convenient or cheap.

Whining that "I can't do that" just perpetuates a victim mentality that our government, special interests and corporations will continue to exploit. Well I'm done being a victim. This is my declaration, this is my manifesto. How about you?
Rich A.Marylandhttp://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html


Message: 16
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 08:59:20 -0600 (CST)
From: "Michaela Merz" [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" [email protected]
Message-ID:
[email protected]
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Jim: I am not watching Nascar's truck races to help me decide what truck I am
going to buy for our ranch. EVers today have the same choices they had 4,
5 years ago - maybe even less.
VCR's and Lithium are not comparable. True - there's a lot of talk going
on about Lithium - but where can I buy 'em? Including charger, balancer
and with realistic price tags? I might be able to get them in 3 or 4
years. But Chevy may have the Volt available by then and other EVs/Plugins
maybe available.
It is not speed that matters to 'normal' people. It's range. I realize all
that 'you only need 40 Miles/day .. jada jada' talk, but people don't want
to be limited to a drive through the neighborhood. You know how to built a
better motor now. That's great. I'd rather see a motor available to me
(including controller) that would help to capture all that energy
converted into heat while stopping my lead sled. And yes, I know about
Zapi controllers.
I am sorry if it feels like I would be 'bitching' . That's not true. I
just need to rely on stuff other people are building. I can't do it
myself. I neither have the knowledge, nor the time.
So - I guess while you have fun going to the races, I wait until finally
somebody designs and sells an EV that makes sense, including a/c,
regenerative braking and advanced battery technologies.
Michaela
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Discussion Starter #10
>Am I understanding you correctly, that the circuit diagram for the Cursit
is
>incorrect? It seems to me that I have heard that on here before. The Dodge
>Dakota I am working on has a Cursit 1221B, so I need to know for sure!
>
>Joseph H. Strubhar
>
>So DID I overlook stuff that is a DUH! thing??
>
> Bob
>
>Tape off or heatshrink the A2 connection to insure that you don't get the
>idea that it needs something connected to it. (Ignore that part of the
>Cursit wiring diagram)
>
>.. And be sure you have at least a resister for a pre-charge or the caps in
>the controller will be somewhat shall we say "Stressed" each time you turn
>it on. Without the precharge they will fail, it may take many starts but
>they WILL fail.
>

YES!

You understood correctly, the Curtis manual in their wiring diagram shows a =

connection from the A2 terminal to the motor. That is fine for a forklift =

that uses plug braking but will not work for an EV. =


The connections that you will use at the controller are B- to the negative =

side of the pack, B+ from the main contactor AND to A1 of the motor, M- to =

S2 on the motor and jumper on the motor between S1 and A2 on the motor. =


The Curtis manual shows a wire between A2 and the motor. Don't connect =

anything to A2 at the controller or you will blow the controller! =


I recomend putting a piece of heatshrink on the A2 terminal to remind =

yourself that there is NO Connection to that terminal. Many of the =

controller manufacturers don't have an A2 terminal on the controller =

because they are manufactured expressly for road going EV's and not for =

forklifts. The Curtis was first designed for forklifts and EV's was a =

secondary use.

I will post my schematic for my Fiero on the EVAlbum. It will be wired the
same even though I am using a Kodiak controller that has no A2 terminal. =


Jim
http://www.evalbum.com/804

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Discussion Starter #11
Well said, Richard. Your last paragraph sums up the fundamental
concern with our society.


--
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http://evalbum.com/1328

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Discussion Starter #13
Yeah..that's what I was afraid of. I don't have enough physical space to pa=
rallel 200-odd cells to get 60-70 aH of capacity. I have the dimensions of =
the cells. I can fit 10 units per battery cage and if I fill all 16 battery=
spaces that gives me 116 1.2v units. Even if I stepped my voltage down to =
106 units to match my present voltage I still don't have enough space to pa=
rallel 212 units to give me 128v and 60 aH.
=

Also, I'm willing to water over 100 units, but not over 200. I know that Li=
thium is the hot topic these days but I'm hearing a lot of static about hig=
h prices, dodgy manufacturing practices, and failure to honor warranties, p=
lus the added joy of pumping more of my hard earned dollars into another co=
untry's economy.
=

NiCad's have a proven record so I was just exploring the possibility. Looks=
like I'll be tracking Lithium's after all.
=




Message: 2Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 16:30:35 +0000From: damon henry <damonhenr=
[email protected]>Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Real" battery capacityTo: Electric Vehic=
le Discussion List <[email protected]>Message-ID: <BAY109-W86E5D02404F48506=
[email protected]>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" becaus=
e if I understand rightly, the more amps you pull, exponentially your time =
gets shorter->> What if I draw 110 battery amps?> 220 battery amps?> You sh=
ould be able to draw 110 battery amps from a BB600 for 15 to 20 minutes. Ho=
w fast are you going with a 110 amp draw? If it is enough to keep you going=
30 mph then that gives you 7 -10 miles range which sounds in the ballpark =
for less than 400 lbs of Nicads - maybe more maybe less depending on the ef=
ficiency of your vehicle. You will certainly end up with substantially les=
s range then you had with your lead acid pack if you are only carrying 1/3 =
the weight of Nicads. By weight BB600s only give a slight range improvement=
over a warm lead acid battery though they are not really affected by the c=
old. I would expect that with 800 lbs of Nicads you would be getting closer=
to what your Lead Acid pack can do. The Nicads feel a lot better. They hav=
e a much stiffer voltage and you do not get slower as you drain the pack, t=
hat is until they are empty, then they suddenly quit on you. They also tend=
to last much longer then lead acid. Most people that use them are happy wi=
th them, other then the watering. They are robust, but don't hold the type =
of significant advantages over Lead Acid that Lithium does. damon

Rich A.Marylandhttp://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
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Discussion Starter #14
Message: 14
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:30:54 -0800 (PST)
From: fsabolich <[email protected]>
Subject: [EVDL] looking for charger
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

<snip>

The charger must interface to the BMS - the BMS must be able to control the
current and stop charging (zero current). The preferred method of
communication is CANbus but RS232 would be acceptable.

<snip>

Thank you,
Fran
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Fran,
I'm building a BMS just now. I suppose I could build CanBus into it because
it is a master - slave setup, with each slave being very dumb. They are
deliberately dumb and that makes sure that no slave starts issuing commands. They
are connected in 'data-series' network.
I like the inbuilt safety featuire of this that if a message is not returned
back to the issuing master than a fault is automatically declared, system
integrity can be checked on a message-by-message basis, very simply.

Each slave can control the topping up of up to 6 cells, and provides
feedback about each cells. Additionally, two temperature sensors can be connected to
each slave.

Now, I had thought of making a smart charger, but now that I'm rolling my
own BMS I am leaning towards having the BMS control the charger, switching the
AC charger supply on and off via a power SSR, with suitable safety features.
I've got some 100Amp SSR's which require a 4-20mA input signal to activate
them.

It might not be the greatest idea, and I am only working this into the
design because the relays are to hand

I'm trying to keep an up to date blog here _http://tinyurl.com/2nqmag_
(http://tinyurl.com/2nqmag)

Chris






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Discussion Starter #15
Yes, once you have a BMS you might as well use it to control charging.

Anyways, my first BMS design will use MOSFET plus resistor for each cell to
shunt current around the cell during the phase when the cells are topped
off, so I need to control charge current. The plan is to run high current
until the first cell reaches a certain threshold voltage, then lower the
charge current to equal the current that flows through the resistor once a
MOSFET is turned on. Therefore I need a charger where I can control charge
current (or at least have two current settings).

The BMS will control a relay between the mains and charger just for safety.

Right now I have plenty to keep me busy, the BMS design, the controller
design, etc. The last thing I need is to design a charger too. So, I'm
looking for a commercial charger.

Fran


FixitSan wrote:
>
> Fran,
> I'm building a BMS just now. I suppose I could build CanBus into it
> because
> it is a master - slave setup, with each slave being very dumb. They are
> deliberately dumb and that makes sure that no slave starts issuing
> commands. They
> are connected in 'data-series' network.
> I like the inbuilt safety featuire of this that if a message is not
> returned
> back to the issuing master than a fault is automatically declared, system
> integrity can be checked on a message-by-message basis, very simply.
>
> Each slave can control the topping up of up to 6 cells, and provides
> feedback about each cells. Additionally, two temperature sensors can be
> connected to
> each slave.
>
> Now, I had thought of making a smart charger, but now that I'm rolling my
> own BMS I am leaning towards having the BMS control the charger, switching
> the
> AC charger supply on and off via a power SSR, with suitable safety
> features.
> I've got some 100Amp SSR's which require a 4-20mA input signal to activate
> them.
>
> It might not be the greatest idea, and I am only working this into the
> design because the relays are to hand
>
> I'm trying to keep an up to date blog here _http://tinyurl.com/2nqmag_
> (http://tinyurl.com/2nqmag)
>
> Chris
>

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View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/%28no-subject%29-tp15443296p15444803.html
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Discussion Starter #16
Hi Chris,
=

There's an easier way than doing the "charity" thing. Just offer to pay a f=
lat rate parking fee for the privilage of parking at their house or busines=
s. That way they're not "selling" you electricity, they're leasing you a pa=
rking spot.
=

I've found that most private individuals and small businesses are so fascin=
ated by what we're trying to do that they don't want any money, especially =
once they find out that you're only drawing about .50 cents a day. Big busi=
nesses on the other hand have turned out to be narrow-minded, complete assh=
oles in my experience. I mean, I understand that not everyone is going to b=
e an EV cheerleader and just give "fuel" away, but when they won't even dis=
cuss equitable payment it kind of boggles my mind that they would turn thei=
r noses up at a potential business opportunity.
=

=




Message: 35Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 00:02:31 -0500 (CDT)From: "Chris Simon" <=
[email protected]>Subject: [EVDL] Relying on the kindness of stranger=
s for opportunitycharging (was: Re: Battery Choice)To: [email protected]=
sage-ID:<[email protected]>Con=
tent-Type: text/plain;charset=3Diso-8859-1 Pete, I'm planning a conversion =
and have a similar situation where I might not be able to charge
at work. (Fortunately I have a shorter commute so I may just make it there =
and back.) However, in the event that my range isn't what I expect (or when=
the batteries get cold and
lazy in the Minnesota winter) my backup plan is to contact residents and bu=
sinesses near my
employer to try to work out a deal for electricity. (Obviously this plan do=
esn't work for
you if your commute takes you far from the power grid.) I would offer to co=
ntribute so
many dollars per month for the priviledge of charging using a 110 VAC outle=
t. My plan would
be to print a 1 page clever marketing page offering an "exclusive opportuni=
ty to help save
the planet!" by taking a CO2 generator (translated as ICE vehicle) off the =
roads. I'd
include a calculation of expected electricity usage so they'd know how much=
to charge, then
distribute to everyone for a few blocks around. (This may involve some walk=
ing depending on
how close the genrous folks live to my employer.) I believe that someone he=
re wrote that some states make it illegal for anyone but the power
company to sell electricity, so an alternate plan would be to make a donati=
on to the charity
of their choice for their kindness:) Has anyone else had success making su=
ch arrangements to facilitate a long commute? Would
you respond positively if you received such an offer? Chris Simon
Minneapolis



Rich A.
Maryland
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
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Discussion Starter #17
Damn Ken,

I'm glad to hear you tell this story. I was wondering what kind of life expectancy I should expect from my Zivan and I'm in Maryland. At least I have some cold winters to keep the charger nice and cool. If yours stands up to that punishment, I should be ok.




Message: 12Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 09:11:23 -0400From: [email protected]: Re: [EVDL] Zivan charger and Deka gel batteriesTo: [email protected], [email protected]: <[email protected]>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Well, for what it's worth here is my experience. I have the same NG3 with the same profile except the T2 current is 2.5 amps. The car is driven (aggressively) every day and gets three complete cycles each day - including the pulse phase.1) drive to work, charge. 2) drive to lunch, run errands, charge. 3) drive home, charge.Each charge runs all three phases completely. The "high" batteries reach up to 16 volts during the pulse on, near the end of the pulse phase (204 volts total). Note: as the dt/dv (rate of voltage change between pulse on and pulse off) decreases, the on pulses get shorter. Eventually, the pulses are just a few milliseconds long. Occasionally, the car will make a very short tri!
p or just get moved around in the driveway. It always gets plugged back in and the Zivan skips to the pulse phase. So, sometimes it gets extra pulse phase charging. No battery has ever gassed. This same routine takes place all year, cold and hot. It gets hot, here in Austin Texas. Often the Zivan would not charge after the drive home during July to September, because the ambient temperature is over 120 degrees. By ambient, I mean the car body, batteries etc. The pavement temperature is over 140 degrees. I would have to park in shade open everything up and put fans on it to get it under 120 degrees before the Zivan would run. At the end of each charging session after the Zivan turns off, the AH reads +2. Each morning, after the pack has sat for about 10 hours off charge, the 156 volt pack is sitting at 168 volts. With all this, I got well over 500 cycles out of the first set of Optimas. I replaced them with a set of Odyssey PC1200's. The original set of Optimas are still goo!
d and are being used as a stationary test pack for Hot Juice E!
lectric.
Ken




Rich A.Maryland
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Discussion Starter #18
Well...not necessarily a "con" but this Mercedes probably has an automatic transmission, so this will make your conversion more complicated.
You basically have 2 choices...

1. Get an electric pump to keep the transmission fluid pressure at the proper level so you can use all of the gears.
2. Restrict transmission use to "1" and "2".

An electric motor has a different torque curve than the diesel engine, plus an electric motor doesn't idle so the fluid pressure drops away to nothing when you stop driving. It can be done though, others have. Hopefully someone will speak up on the matter.





Message: 14Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 19:06:12 -0700 (PDT)From: Heynow <[email protected]>Subject: [EVDL] Mercedes as a glider?To: [email protected]: <[email protected]>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I am a noob, but I read "Convert It" and I have an electrical background soI understand the problems that an EV has with weight, range batteries, etc.

Rich A.Marylandhttp://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html http://patriotfuel.blogspot.com/
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Discussion Starter #19
IIRC, the 240D usually had a manual transmission. It was the 300D's
that were only automatics. At least in the US.

Z

Richard Acuti <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Well...not necessarily a "con" but this Mercedes probably has an automatic transmission, so this will make your conversion more complicated.
> You basically have 2 choices...
>
> 1. Get an electric pump to keep the transmission fluid pressure at the proper level so you can use all of the gears.
> 2. Restrict transmission use to "1" and "2".
>
> An electric motor has a different torque curve than the diesel engine, plus an electric motor doesn't idle so the fluid pressure drops away to nothing when you stop driving. It can be done though, others have. Hopefully someone will speak up on the matter.
>
>
>
>
>
> Message: 14Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 19:06:12 -0700 (PDT)From: Heynow <[email protected]>Subject: [EVDL] Mercedes as a glider?To: [email protected]: <[email protected]>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I am a noob, but I read "Convert It" and I have an electrical background soI understand the problems that an EV has with weight, range batteries, etc.
>
> Rich A.Marylandhttp://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html http://patriotfuel.blogspot.com/
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now.
> http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_getintouch_042008
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter #20
>
> Well...not necessarily a "con" but this Mercedes probably has an
> automatic transmission, so this will make your conversion more
> complicated.


I would only try to convert a car with a manual Transmission. These were
ment to be economy cars (the 240D) so many if not all have a manual tranny.
It may seen like I am trying to do something difficult, but the way I see it
, this should be easier to convert. (of course I am a noob!) I do have a
300D which is very similar so I can see what I think are some advantages.
Much of the car works with vacuum, like the door locks and heater controls,
and brakes, so a vacuum pump would do many functions. They have manual
steering, which I see as a real plus, it will steer like a normal car with
no messing around with extra motors for power steering. The car is RWD and
the diesel is a very tall engine, so the electric motor would sit way down
low in the engine bay leaving lots of room for batteries in the engine bay.
It has a huge trunk so there is room for batteries there as well.

My thoughts are to convert it now, and only use enough floodies to give it
the performance of a NEV. Then in a few years, if/when better batteries
ever become available, I could upgrade and have a pretty decent EV.

But again, I am a noob, and there might be something obvious I am
overlooking that makes this a bad project to take on. I appreciate all the
feedback

Thanks

Peter
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