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Discussion Starter #1
We have it down to about 4 hours.

We did a King County install about the 15th of September and we just
finsished up the City of Tacoma machine this week.

So two more Plug in Hybrids are out there.

Every time we do a install it gets easier and faster, So.. I can support
customers better and there is less hand buildt magic to come up with.

There are 7 Kits out there at the moment. I have kit 4 in my drive way.
Charging at the moment.

I have 60 Thunder Sky 40 amp hour cells slated to go into it in less than 4
weeks. Right now it's using 24 Power Sonic 18 amphour PbLa AGMs. With a full
set of Mark 3 Digi Regs programmed by Jake Oshins.. read more features...
more goodies.

The TS cell have passed 900 cycles..and still make 29.5 to 30.5 amp hours.
We only want 28.... The data shows they are gaining right now... Er..this
shows that I turned the shop heat on.
At the moment .. the TS cells have delivered 8 times the cycle life the lead
did. The lead never made spec amphours under a 40 amp load. 12 amphours was
the best result when new.

Aproaching 1000 cycles and the TS are handing me more watts per cycle that
the lead did new.

The Lion Tamer level 4 are in PCB layout... aka on the PC under my left
hand... These will tame a single Li cell, Protects a over voltage, and under
voltage, and passes 5 amps durning a over voltage event.
They work stand alone and work with all our PFC chargers. We have ONE
living up to our Brag list at the moment. I am doing 12 this week, Then I
will see how many 1000s the world needs and wants after that. I am trying
to hold them to thru hole assembly rules... And $40 each.

And 3800 E-mails .. have kept me off this list for a couple of weeks.

Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro LLC.

Yup did that too this month.




----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Mohlere" <[email protected]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 7:51 PM
Subject: [EVDL] manzanita micro kits for toyota prius


> Has anyone installed subject kit? Would like to receive feedback on
> difficulty of installation (or ease, preferably!) and real world
> performance.
>
> --
> Michael Mohlere
> My EV: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/296.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Discussion Starter #2
On 27 Oct 2007 at 13:14, Rich Rudman wrote:

> Aproaching 1000 cycles and the TS are handing me more watts per cycle that
> the lead did new.

Do you really mean "watts per cycle"? Are you suggesting that the batteries
can produce more peak power with every cycle? Or do you mean Watt-HOURS
per cycle - that is, more ENERGY with every cycle?

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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Discussion Starter #3
Rudman wrote:

> And $40 each.

How about the situation where we have 9,000 batteries?

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Discussion Starter #4
I see you are still splitting hairs...

Yes I mean watt hours.

Rich

We never really hunted for the power peaks from these cells. It's not what
we need from them.
We are asking about 500 watts from 4 cells set up as a 12 volt block.



----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Notes from Manzanita


> On 27 Oct 2007 at 13:14, Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > Aproaching 1000 cycles and the TS are handing me more watts per cycle
that
> > the lead did new.
>
> Do you really mean "watts per cycle"? Are you suggesting that the
batteries
> can produce more peak power with every cycle? Or do you mean Watt-HOURS
> per cycle - that is, more ENERGY with every cycle?
>
> David Roden
> EVDL Administrator
> http://www.evdl.org/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Discussion Starter #5
Umm I call that profit!!...


Serioulsy.. 9000 cells are not wired as 9000 cells.
they are in decks of 3.3 volts that line up to 312 or 360 like voltages.

Each 3.3 volt cell deck can be protected with a LionTamer Reg. That's the
plan.

It's a matter of your granularity, or how many cells per deck. There are
limits.

These Regs don't solve all the issues, But they hit the mains ones,
Over voltage with bypass
Under voltage with Charger cut off...the charger IS the load in a PiPrius
kit.
And Equalization at a Over voltage event.
Opto coupled back to the charger on the Old Analog Regbuss pin out.

They work with Our PFC chargers, as a system.

Clearly they, Without the charger feedback, They work stand alone, Without
Temp cut off.
But many clients want just Over voltage and equalization. And are willing
if not desprate to do the rest of the BMS on thier own.

So... these solve %80 of the Lion BMS issue, With charger feed back it's
more like %95.
With a temp switch aka ThermoDisk 36T temp switches... hooked to a two pin
header, you have %100 of the needs for a LION BMS covered.

These are tools for BMS makers, and hobbiest , They are NOT a complete high
level BMS.
That comes for about 3 times the cost of these Regs.

The point is these are needed, and I am filling a demand.

Rich Rudman
[email protected]
Manzanita Micro
360-297-7383,
Cell 360-620-6266
Production shop 360-297-1660
FAX at Metal shop 1-360-297-3311


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 11:09 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Notes from Manzanita


> Rudman wrote:
>
> > And $40 each.
>
> How about the situation where we have 9,000 batteries?
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Discussion Starter #6
Is there a USA source for ThunderSky batteries?

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 146 days 16 hours 09 minutes

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Discussion Starter #7
rich what is the price of the kit ? if you want you can email me off list @ [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> I have a 2005 prius and it is out of warranty via miles driven so I can do whatever I wish if I can afford it .
----- Original Message -----
From: Rich Rudman<mailto:[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Notes from Manzanita


Umm I call that profit!!...


Serioulsy.. 9000 cells are not wired as 9000 cells.
they are in decks of 3.3 volts that line up to 312 or 360 like voltages.

Each 3.3 volt cell deck can be protected with a LionTamer Reg. That's the
plan.

It's a matter of your granularity, or how many cells per deck. There are
limits.

These Regs don't solve all the issues, But they hit the mains ones,
Over voltage with bypass
Under voltage with Charger cut off...the charger IS the load in a PiPrius
kit.
And Equalization at a Over voltage event.
Opto coupled back to the charger on the Old Analog Regbuss pin out.

They work with Our PFC chargers, as a system.

Clearly they, Without the charger feedback, They work stand alone, Without
Temp cut off.
But many clients want just Over voltage and equalization. And are willing
if not desprate to do the rest of the BMS on thier own.

So... these solve %80 of the Lion BMS issue, With charger feed back it's
more like %95.
With a temp switch aka ThermoDisk 36T temp switches... hooked to a two pin
header, you have %100 of the needs for a LION BMS covered.

These are tools for BMS makers, and hobbiest , They are NOT a complete high
level BMS.
That comes for about 3 times the cost of these Regs.

The point is these are needed, and I am filling a demand.

Rich Rudman
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Manzanita Micro
360-297-7383,
Cell 360-620-6266
Production shop 360-297-1660
FAX at Metal shop 1-360-297-3311


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 11:09 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Notes from Manzanita


> Rudman wrote:
>
> > And $40 each.
>
> How about the situation where we have 9,000 batteries?
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev<http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev>

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Discussion Starter #8
Rich Rudman wrote:

...
> Aproaching 1000 cycles and the TS are handing me more watts per cycle that
> the lead did new.
...

In 2002 I was testing two spanking new TS-LP90 and was getting
same exciting results as well (meaning cells meeting published
specs). Personally picky-measured. This was the reason to take a plunge
and organize group buy. Everyone knows what happened next.

Arguments that it was then, and today TS is different have no
proof. Proof is NOT 28 cells performing well on your
table, and not even in 7 Priuses. Proof is long term confidence
and basing it on 28 cells experience is a bit short-sighted.

If one is confident, organize another group buy of Fe-phosphate
ones from TS. Any takers? Why don't you Rich?

Until then the company remains BS in my books. Not your 28 cells,
but the company to deal with. They will have to work hard to convince
me otherwise, but so far they don't seem to be trying.
And I'm not fooling myself, they never will because don't dive
a ... about me or you or anyone else. Just a real life observation.

Good luck with your experiments though.

Victor

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Discussion Starter #9
When Rich says this to people, he seems to often leave out some of the data.

He's using TS 40Ah cells. And, in order to get maximum life out of them, he
de-rates the high and low voltage (to 4.0V and 3.0V, IIRC) so that the specs
say that they should deliver 30Ah.

And he's still getting approximately 30Ah out of them after 900 cycles.
He's not getting 30Ah out of them using an algorithm that once delivered
40Ah when new. He's getting 30Ah from an algorithm that delivered 30Ah when
new.

To all the people (Victor in particular) who might respond to this with
anger about ThunderSky, let me say that I understand your position and I
chose to deliver data to the community anyhow. You can rest your fingers.

- Jake Oshins


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Rich Rudman
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 1:15 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Notes from Manzanita

<snip>

The TS cell have passed 900 cycles..and still make 29.5 to 30.5 amp hours.
We only want 28.... The data shows they are gaining right now... Er..this
shows that I turned the shop heat on.
At the moment .. the TS cells have delivered 8 times the cycle life the lead
did. The lead never made spec amphours under a 40 amp load. 12 amphours was
the best result when new.

Aproaching 1000 cycles and the TS are handing me more watts per cycle that
the lead did new.
<snip>

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Discussion Starter #11
Jake,

Jake Oshins wrote:

> To all the people (Victor in particular) who might respond to this with
> anger about ThunderSky, let me say that I understand your position and I
> chose to deliver data to the community anyhow. You can rest your fingers.
>
> - Jake Oshins

I have no problem with you (or anyone) delivering data to the community.
And I'm not angry at TS, they are just on my black list to do business
with. My email was just reminder of recent history, not venting.
I moved on long ago.

So data is good but is of academic interest only unless actual
purchase and use by community follows. And doe some reason I don't
see people organizing group buys from TS regardless of what the
data look like.

So, keep supplying data, no problem at all.

Victor

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Discussion Starter #12
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> I have no problem with you (or anyone) delivering data to the community.
> And I'm not angry at TS, they are just on my black list to do business
> with. My email was just reminder of recent history, not venting.

I'm a newcomer here. Can you point me to a recounting of the TS group
buy episode? Who bought? How many? Cost? Problems? Are any TS
batteries from that buy still in service? From snippets I've read here
and there, I understand that many of the TS batteries failed to meet
expectations and that TS ignored all pleas for support. I also
understand that some TS batteries did work as advertised.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 150 days 8 hours 19 minutes

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