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[EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

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http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=132020612&m=132020598

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E
Lawrence,
This is about $8 billion to build and stock battery swapping stations!
The speaker is Shai Agassi CEO of Better Place. He also mentioned the
"Project Get Ready" program and another program however those are mostly for
home charging stations, not highway recharging locations.
Agassi also mentioned A-B-C which he defined as Automobiles, Batteries,
and Charging. It immediately came to my mind that I learned the entire
alphabet not just the first three letters, and we called them the ABC'S
Therefore I would add the letter S to his comment as "S"ervice is always
left out but is definitely necessary!
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVA Education
Chapter*
Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I or (813) 434 - 3884
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Lawrence Rhodes <
[email protected]> wrote:

>
> http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=132020612&m=132020598
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
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>



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Great progress, but a couple things aren't clear.
1. does $8B cover just the cost of the charging stations, or also
improvements to the infrastructure?
2. what level of charger?

Let me expound on the latter. I think for most people, 100 mile range with
20 minute charging will not be popular. Maybe at 200 miles with 5 minute
charging. But to do that, let's take a simple example:

- Say you have a car that gets 250wh/m (possible, but probably optimistic at
freeway speeds)
- The goal is 200 miles on a charge.
- Not counting losses, that's 50kwh
- To deliver that in 5 minutes requires a 600kw service.
- At 440v, that would be 1364a
Wow! I'm not sure Agassi is providing for that within an $8B estimate.

Peri


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Dennis Miles
Sent: 13 December, 2010 9:03 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

Lawrence,
This is about $8 billion to build and stock battery swapping stations!
The speaker is Shai Agassi CEO of Better Place. He also mentioned the
"Project Get Ready" program and another program however those are mostly for
home charging stations, not highway recharging locations.
Agassi also mentioned A-B-C which he defined as Automobiles, Batteries,
and Charging. It immediately came to my mind that I learned the entire
alphabet not just the first three letters, and we called them the ABC'S
Therefore I would add the letter S to his comment as "S"ervice is always
left out but is definitely necessary!
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVA Education
Chapter*
Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I or (813) 434 - 3884
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Lawrence Rhodes <
[email protected]> wrote:

>
> http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=fals
> e&id=132020612&m=132020598
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



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Don't forget, he primarily wants to speed things up by swapping
battery packs, not fast charging. Just one of the many problems I see
with his whole scheme.

DAC

Peri Hartman <[email protected]> wrote:
> Great progress, but a couple things aren't clear.
> 1. does $8B cover just the cost of the charging stations, or also
> improvements to the infrastructure?
> 2. what level of charger?
>
> Let me expound on the latter. I think for most people, 100 mile range =
with
> 20 minute charging will not be popular. Maybe at 200 miles with 5 minu=
te
> charging. But to do that, let's take a simple example:
>
> - Say you have a car that gets 250wh/m (possible, but probably optimistic=
at
> freeway speeds)
> - The goal is 200 miles on a charge.
> - Not counting losses, that's 50kwh
> - To deliver that in 5 minutes requires a 600kw service.
> - At 440v, that would be 1364a
> Wow! I'm not sure Agassi is providing for that within an $8B estimate.
>
> Peri
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Beh=
alf
> Of Dennis Miles
> Sent: 13 December, 2010 9:03 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
>
> Lawrence,
> This is about $8 billion to build and stock battery swapping stat=
ions!
> The speaker is Shai Agassi CEO of Better Place. He also mentioned the
> "Project Get Ready" program and another program however those are mostly =
for
> home charging stations, not highway recharging locations.
> Agassi also mentioned A-B-C which he defined as Automobiles, Batte=
ries,
> and Charging. It immediately came to my mind that I learned the entire
> alphabet not just the first three letters, and we called them the ABC'S
> Therefore I would add the letter S to his comment as "S"ervice is always
> left out but is definitely necessary!
> Regards,
> *Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
> *www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
> EVTI-EVA Education
> Chapter*
> Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I or (813) 434 - 3884
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
> ---------------
> On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Lawrence Rhodes <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=3D1&t=3D1&islist=3D=
fals
>> e&id=3D132020612&m=3D132020598
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
>
>
> --
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-- =

http://www.evalbum.com/2149

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It has been said before - high power needs high voltage.
At a typical 11kV from the medium voltage grid (which
runs on overhead wires, maybe even through your backyard)
the 600kW is only 55A unless it is 3-phase then it is
even lower.
It also has been said that there will be few high power
fast-charge "convenience stores" as most everyone
will opt for slow and cheaper overnight charging.
But if you want to make a long trip and have a few
bucks extra to spend for the fast charge, then that
convenience may be viable (I mean, it may have a
positive business case as money-making enterprise,
to have fast-charging stations at regular places along
highways in the same way that we have gas stations now
though I believe there will not be a need for so many
charging stations as there are gas outlets today.
Time will tell.

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Peri Hartman
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 1:51 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

Great progress, but a couple things aren't clear.
1. does $8B cover just the cost of the charging stations, or also
improvements to the infrastructure?
2. what level of charger?

Let me expound on the latter. I think for most people, 100 mile range
with 20 minute charging will not be popular. Maybe at 200 miles with 5
minute charging. But to do that, let's take a simple example:

- Say you have a car that gets 250wh/m (possible, but probably
optimistic at freeway speeds)
- The goal is 200 miles on a charge.
- Not counting losses, that's 50kwh
- To deliver that in 5 minutes requires a 600kw service.
- At 440v, that would be 1364a
Wow! I'm not sure Agassi is providing for that within an $8B estimate.

Peri


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Dennis Miles
Sent: 13 December, 2010 9:03 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

Lawrence,
This is about $8 billion to build and stock battery swapping
stations!
The speaker is Shai Agassi CEO of Better Place. He also mentioned the
"Project Get Ready" program and another program however those are mostly
for home charging stations, not highway recharging locations.
Agassi also mentioned A-B-C which he defined as Automobiles,
Batteries, and Charging. It immediately came to my mind that I learned
the entire alphabet not just the first three letters, and we called them
the ABC'S Therefore I would add the letter S to his comment as "S"ervice
is always left out but is definitely necessary!
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVA Education
Chapter*
Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I or (813) 434 - 3884
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
---------------
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Lawrence Rhodes <
[email protected]> wrote:

>
> http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=fals
> e&id=132020612&m=132020598
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
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Perhaps we can get a comment from Steve Clunn at Greenshed.com but IIRC he
fast-charged his mower from his pickup pack then recharged the pickup from a
homeowners outlet while he cut their lawn with the mower, and trailered the
mower to the next lawn service client and repeated the action.

Why not use a similar setup at a highway FAST recharging station, several
cycle packs are charged at the one or two hour rate and are connected to the
EV pack to recharge the EV in 15 minutes or less. the load to the grid is
leveled at a substantially lowered and the EVs receive a Quick as possible
re-charge. As business grows in the coming years add more batteries to the
Re-charging station's cycle packs.

Cor van de Water <[email protected]>wrote:

> It has been said before - high power needs high voltage.
> At a typical 11kV from the medium voltage grid (which
> runs on overhead wires, maybe even through your backyard)
> the 600kW is only 55A unless it is 3-phase then it is
> even lower.
> It also has been said that there will be few high power
> fast-charge "convenience stores" as most everyone
> will opt for slow and cheaper overnight charging.
> But if you want to make a long trip and have a few
> bucks extra to spend for the fast charge, then that
> convenience may be viable (I mean, it may have a
> positive business case as money-making enterprise,
> to have fast-charging stations at regular places along
> highways in the same way that we have gas stations now
> though I believe there will not be a need for so many
> charging stations as there are gas outlets today.
> Time will tell.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Peri Hartman
> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 1:51 AM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
>
> Great progress, but a couple things aren't clear.
> 1. does $8B cover just the cost of the charging stations, or also
> improvements to the infrastructure?
> 2. what level of charger?
>
> Let me expound on the latter. I think for most people, 100 mile range
> with 20 minute charging will not be popular. Maybe at 200 miles with 5
> minute charging. But to do that, let's take a simple example:
>
> - Say you have a car that gets 250wh/m (possible, but probably
> optimistic at freeway speeds)
> - The goal is 200 miles on a charge.
> - Not counting losses, that's 50kwh
> - To deliver that in 5 minutes requires a 600kw service.
> - At 440v, that would be 1364a
> Wow! I'm not sure Agassi is providing for that within an $8B estimate.
>
> Peri
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Dennis Miles
> Sent: 13 December, 2010 9:03 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
>
> Lawrence,
> This is about $8 billion to build and stock battery swapping
> stations!
> The speaker is Shai Agassi CEO of Better Place. He also mentioned the
> "Project Get Ready" program and another program however those are mostly
> for home charging stations, not highway recharging locations.
> Agassi also mentioned A-B-C which he defined as Automobiles,
> Batteries, and Charging. It immediately came to my mind that I learned
> the entire alphabet not just the first three letters, and we called them
> the ABC'S Therefore I would add the letter S to his comment as "S"ervice
> is always left out but is definitely necessary!
> Regards,
> *Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
> *www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
> EVTI-EVA Education
> Chapter*
> Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I or (813) 434 - 3884
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> ---------------
> On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Lawrence Rhodes <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> > http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=fals
> > e&id=132020612&m=132020598
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
>
>
> --
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ttac
> hment.html
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> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>
>
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>
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>



--
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
It ended because they started using their Brains !
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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That would work in low demand areas. But along a freeway where people are
queing up, you might as well use a high wattage source directly. There
comes a point where the rate in (from the power lines) equals the rate out
throughout most of the day. At that point, any advantages of charging a
"dump-charge" pack are lost.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Dennis Miles
Sent: 14 December, 2010 9:12 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

Perhaps we can get a comment from Steve Clunn at Greenshed.com but IIRC he
fast-charged his mower from his pickup pack then recharged the pickup from a
homeowners outlet while he cut their lawn with the mower, and trailered the
mower to the next lawn service client and repeated the action.

Why not use a similar setup at a highway FAST recharging station, several
cycle packs are charged at the one or two hour rate and are connected to the
EV pack to recharge the EV in 15 minutes or less. the load to the grid is
leveled at a substantially lowered and the EVs receive a Quick as possible
re-charge. As business grows in the coming years add more batteries to the
Re-charging station's cycle packs.

Cor van de Water <[email protected]>wrote:

> It has been said before - high power needs high voltage.
> At a typical 11kV from the medium voltage grid (which runs on overhead
> wires, maybe even through your backyard) the 600kW is only 55A unless
> it is 3-phase then it is even lower.
> It also has been said that there will be few high power fast-charge
> "convenience stores" as most everyone will opt for slow and cheaper
> overnight charging.
> But if you want to make a long trip and have a few bucks extra to
> spend for the fast charge, then that convenience may be viable (I
> mean, it may have a positive business case as money-making enterprise,
> to have fast-charging stations at regular places along highways in the
> same way that we have gas stations now though I believe there will not
> be a need for so many charging stations as there are gas outlets
> today.
> Time will tell.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group Proxim Wireless Corporation
> http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Peri Hartman
> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 1:51 AM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
>
> Great progress, but a couple things aren't clear.
> 1. does $8B cover just the cost of the charging stations, or also
> improvements to the infrastructure?
> 2. what level of charger?
>
> Let me expound on the latter. I think for most people, 100 mile range
> with 20 minute charging will not be popular. Maybe at 200 miles with
> 5 minute charging. But to do that, let's take a simple example:
>
> - Say you have a car that gets 250wh/m (possible, but probably
> optimistic at freeway speeds)
> - The goal is 200 miles on a charge.
> - Not counting losses, that's 50kwh
> - To deliver that in 5 minutes requires a 600kw service.
> - At 440v, that would be 1364a
> Wow! I'm not sure Agassi is providing for that within an $8B estimate.
>
> Peri
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Dennis Miles
> Sent: 13 December, 2010 9:03 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
>
> Lawrence,
> This is about $8 billion to build and stock battery swapping
> stations!
> The speaker is Shai Agassi CEO of Better Place. He also mentioned the
> "Project Get Ready" program and another program however those are
> mostly for home charging stations, not highway recharging locations.
> Agassi also mentioned A-B-C which he defined as Automobiles,
> Batteries, and Charging. It immediately came to my mind that I learned
> the entire alphabet not just the first three letters, and we called
> them the ABC'S Therefore I would add the letter S to his comment as
> "S"ervice is always left out but is definitely necessary!
> Regards,
> *Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
> *www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
> EVTI-EVA Education
> Chapter*
> Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I or (813) 434 - 3884
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> ----
> ---------------
> On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Lawrence Rhodes <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> > http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=fa
> > ls
> > e&id=132020612&m=132020598
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
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> >
>
>
>
> --
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>



--
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
It ended because they started using their Brains !
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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I agree Peri,
However the EVs queing up to fast re-charge might be several years away
and a "Dump-Charge" Pack system would prove the demand and give the
Electrical Distribution System time to "Catch-Up" and a proven demand to
increase available Power levels in what otherwise might be a remote area.
That will be far more likely than the "Vaporware" the utilities are using at
this time to justify major expansion of their grid. (I hope they are
visionary, not just greedy, in the quest for Tax-payer's monetary support
for expansion funding.)

Regards,
Dennis
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peri Hartman <[email protected]> wrote:

> That would work in low demand areas. But along a freeway where people are
> queing up, you might as well use a high wattage source directly. There
> comes a point where the rate in (from the power lines) equals the rate out
> throughout most of the day. At that point, any advantages of charging a
> "dump-charge" pack are lost.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf
> Of Dennis Miles
> Sent: 14 December, 2010 9:12 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
>
> Perhaps we can get a comment from Steve Clunn at Greenshed.com but IIRC he
> fast-charged his mower from his pickup pack then recharged the pickup from
> a
> homeowners outlet while he cut their lawn with the mower, and trailered the
> mower to the next lawn service client and repeated the action.
>
> Why not use a similar setup at a highway FAST recharging station, several
> cycle packs are charged at the one or two hour rate and are connected to
> the
> EV pack to recharge the EV in 15 minutes or less. the load to the grid is
> leveled at a substantially lowered and the EVs receive a Quick as possible
> re-charge. As business grows in the coming years add more batteries to the
> Re-charging station's cycle packs.
>
> On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 11:52 AM, Cor van de Water <[email protected]
> >wrote:
>
> > It has been said before - high power needs high voltage.
> > At a typical 11kV from the medium voltage grid (which runs on overhead
> > wires, maybe even through your backyard) the 600kW is only 55A unless
> > it is 3-phase then it is even lower.
> > It also has been said that there will be few high power fast-charge
> > "convenience stores" as most everyone will opt for slow and cheaper
> > overnight charging.
> > But if you want to make a long trip and have a few bucks extra to
> > spend for the fast charge, then that convenience may be viable (I
> > mean, it may have a positive business case as money-making enterprise,
> > to have fast-charging stations at regular places along highways in the
> > same way that we have gas stations now though I believe there will not
> > be a need for so many charging stations as there are gas outlets
> > today.
> > Time will tell.
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> > Director HW & Systems Architecture Group Proxim Wireless Corporation
> > http://www.proxim.com
> > Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
> > Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> > Behalf Of Peri Hartman
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 1:51 AM
> > To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
> >
> > Great progress, but a couple things aren't clear.
> > 1. does $8B cover just the cost of the charging stations, or also
> > improvements to the infrastructure?
> > 2. what level of charger?
> >
> > Let me expound on the latter. I think for most people, 100 mile range
> > with 20 minute charging will not be popular. Maybe at 200 miles with
> > 5 minute charging. But to do that, let's take a simple example:
> >
> > - Say you have a car that gets 250wh/m (possible, but probably
> > optimistic at freeway speeds)
> > - The goal is 200 miles on a charge.
> > - Not counting losses, that's 50kwh
> > - To deliver that in 5 minutes requires a 600kw service.
> > - At 440v, that would be 1364a
> > Wow! I'm not sure Agassi is providing for that within an $8B estimate.
> >
> > Peri
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> > Behalf Of Dennis Miles
> > Sent: 13 December, 2010 9:03 AM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
> >
> > Lawrence,
> > This is about $8 billion to build and stock battery swapping
> > stations!
> > The speaker is Shai Agassi CEO of Better Place. He also mentioned the
> > "Project Get Ready" program and another program however those are
> > mostly for home charging stations, not highway recharging locations.
> > Agassi also mentioned A-B-C which he defined as Automobiles,
> > Batteries, and Charging. It immediately came to my mind that I learned
> > the entire alphabet not just the first three letters, and we called
> > them the ABC'S Therefore I would add the letter S to his comment as
> > "S"ervice is always left out but is definitely necessary!
> > Regards,
> > *Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
> > *www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
> > EVTI-EVA Education
> > Chapter*
> > Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I or (813) 434 - 3884
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > ----
> > ---------------
> > On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Lawrence Rhodes <
> > [email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=fa
> > > ls
> > > e&id=132020612&m=132020598
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> > > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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> >
>
>
>
> --
> Regards,
> *Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
> *www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
> EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
> *
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
> It ended because they started using their Brains !
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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>



--
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
It ended because they started using their Brains !
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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From: Dennis Miles
>Perhaps we can get a comment from Steve Clunn at Greenshed.com but IIRC=
he
fast-charged his mower from his pickup pack then recharged the pickup from a
homeowners outlet while he cut their lawn with the mower, and trailered the
mower to the next lawn service client and repeated the action<

Yes, it was about 6 years ago when I converted my gas Dixie Chopper to
Electric. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DtVFfOLpCupA And the next 3
years of lawn mowing was so much fun that I could barely give it up to
do Electric Car Conversions full time, which had been a dream of mine
since I did my first car. My whole set up from the truck to the
Electric Lawn Mower was an evolving situation. It didn't happen all
at once. And it evolved out of just making due out of Life's
Situations. Whenever I would get a new customer, I would tell them
about my Electric Vehicle and my need to charge and offer them
something in exchange to plug IN, if I needed to. If the customer
felt that plugging IN was worth $5.00 or more, I would put a little
check by their card, but never use their services. A third of my
customers were happy to let me plug in to their dryer outlet, if I
needed to. The lawn mower wasn't an "instant" success. When I first
got it going, I didn't have a fast charging seupt, or even thought the
possibility was there, so I would charge the lawn mower at home and
cut the lawns in the neighborhood. Then leave the Electric Mower at
home charging, and take the gas off to work. The Electric Mower was
so much nicer to use and my back up gas mower was wearing out. ( I
regularly wore out the gas engine every 2 years) So I was motivate to
get the Electric Mower to do more. I bought a PFC-50 and started
using the Mower and charging it from people's houses or pumping the
power from the Truck into the Mower. This worked, but definitely
slowed things up. I had read about "Dump Charging" on the internet
and set up a Resistor Bank for my first try. After cutting the
resistor bank back and still having things work, I made the jump and
plugged the 120V Truck directly IN to the 96V Lawn Mower and much to
my surprise, it was pretty much a "Non Event". No giant sparks (
the difference really was only 24V ) and much to my delight, the Amp
Gauge read 150 Amps. I watched the Voltmeter do a little "wave" ( at
the start of the charge the Voltage went up and then came back down
and then started going back up all within minutes ). This was really
the beginning. At 150Amps it doesn't take long to put back 20ah. I
had used AGM batteries in different cars and knew them that way. The
lawn mower and fast charging showed them in a different light. If the
Lawn Mower was a car and every lawn a 15 mile trip, I would have been
driving a 100 miles a day ... easy. If someone was determined to
drive their Electric Vehicle 150 miles a day, they could, just like
me, do it with a vehicle that had a 30 mile range and make 5 or 10
stops a day to charge for about 10 minutes. The AGM batteries, from
my experience, were very happy being charged this way. I believe the
batteries on the Lawn Mower experienced many more cycles than they
would have in a regular vehicle. Over the 3 years that I did the
lawns, I had 2 packs. And the first pack I lost by leaving it plugged
in too long. ( Mowing my OWN yard even ! ) A lot of times I see
people coming up with ideas on how others could do long distance
travel, but I think the people that actually do long distance EV
driving come up with solutions not often thought of. My "arm chair"
solution for long distance travelers in Electric Cars would be a
trailer full of batteries that one hooks up as they get ON the
interstate and drops off as they get off the interstate. It wouldn't
be too hard to have 100Kw of Lithium Batteries in a small U-Hal type
trailer, an Anderson Plug to plug your car IN and an OFF switch for
your car battery pack. One could run on the Trailer Batteries and
charge their EV at the same time. When they get OFF the interstate,
they leave the trailer at a charge station and the Batteries could
even be charged with Solar Panels then. No need for battery
"swapping" this way.

Steve Clunn
--
Tomorrows Ride TODAY !
Visit our shop web page at: www.Greenshedconversions.com

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Now *there's* an idea! One issue in the UK that would dampen things
is the 60mph limit on vehicles on the motorway that are towing. I
expect there are others - those of a dainty disposition might baulk at
hitching and unhitching trailers.

Mind you, why does everyone want to scream up and down the motorways
all the time... sit back tootle along and let everyone else do al the
overtaking and save your power, sanity and money!

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk

Steve Clunn wrote:

> From: Dennis Miles
>> Perhaps we can get a comment from Steve Clunn at Greenshed.com but
>> IIRC he
> fast-charged his mower from his pickup pack then recharged the
> pickup from a
> homeowners outlet while he cut their lawn with the mower, and
> trailered the
> mower to the next lawn service client and repeated the action<
>
> Yes, it was about 6 years ago when I converted my gas Dixie Chopper to
> Electric. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVFfOLpCupA And the next 3
> years of lawn mowing was so much fun that I could barely give it up to
> do Electric Car Conversions full time, which had been a dream of mine
> since I did my first car. My whole set up from the truck to the
> Electric Lawn Mower was an evolving situation. It didn't happen all
> at once. And it evolved out of just making due out of Life's
> Situations. Whenever I would get a new customer, I would tell them
> about my Electric Vehicle and my need to charge and offer them
> something in exchange to plug IN, if I needed to. If the customer
> felt that plugging IN was worth $5.00 or more, I would put a little
> check by their card, but never use their services. A third of my
> customers were happy to let me plug in to their dryer outlet, if I
> needed to. The lawn mower wasn't an "instant" success. When I first
> got it going, I didn't have a fast charging seupt, or even thought the
> possibility was there, so I would charge the lawn mower at home and
> cut the lawns in the neighborhood. Then leave the Electric Mower at
> home charging, and take the gas off to work. The Electric Mower was
> so much nicer to use and my back up gas mower was wearing out. ( I
> regularly wore out the gas engine every 2 years) So I was motivate to
> get the Electric Mower to do more. I bought a PFC-50 and started
> using the Mower and charging it from people's houses or pumping the
> power from the Truck into the Mower. This worked, but definitely
> slowed things up. I had read about "Dump Charging" on the internet
> and set up a Resistor Bank for my first try. After cutting the
> resistor bank back and still having things work, I made the jump and
> plugged the 120V Truck directly IN to the 96V Lawn Mower and much to
> my surprise, it was pretty much a "Non Event". No giant sparks (
> the difference really was only 24V ) and much to my delight, the Amp
> Gauge read 150 Amps. I watched the Voltmeter do a little "wave" ( at
> the start of the charge the Voltage went up and then came back down
> and then started going back up all within minutes ). This was really
> the beginning. At 150Amps it doesn't take long to put back 20ah. I
> had used AGM batteries in different cars and knew them that way. The
> lawn mower and fast charging showed them in a different light. If the
> Lawn Mower was a car and every lawn a 15 mile trip, I would have been
> driving a 100 miles a day ... easy. If someone was determined to
> drive their Electric Vehicle 150 miles a day, they could, just like
> me, do it with a vehicle that had a 30 mile range and make 5 or 10
> stops a day to charge for about 10 minutes. The AGM batteries, from
> my experience, were very happy being charged this way. I believe the
> batteries on the Lawn Mower experienced many more cycles than they
> would have in a regular vehicle. Over the 3 years that I did the
> lawns, I had 2 packs. And the first pack I lost by leaving it plugged
> in too long. ( Mowing my OWN yard even ! ) A lot of times I see
> people coming up with ideas on how others could do long distance
> travel, but I think the people that actually do long distance EV
> driving come up with solutions not often thought of. My "arm chair"
> solution for long distance travelers in Electric Cars would be a
> trailer full of batteries that one hooks up as they get ON the
> interstate and drops off as they get off the interstate. It wouldn't
> be too hard to have 100Kw of Lithium Batteries in a small U-Hal type
> trailer, an Anderson Plug to plug your car IN and an OFF switch for
> your car battery pack. One could run on the Trailer Batteries and
> charge their EV at the same time. When they get OFF the interstate,
> they leave the trailer at a charge station and the Batteries could
> even be charged with Solar Panels then. No need for battery
> "swapping" this way.
>
> Steve Clunn
> --





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Hi, Steve,
Thanks for chiming in, I find learning from others and not reinventing
the wheel a valid technique.
I recalled your previous posts mentioned the dump charging and I
expect you read my entire post about a scheme whereby just a mid size
trailer (Say 20 ft long) could contain several large packs of high current
lead-acid batteries and charger, (Or several) to charge them without
disrupting the local electric utility grid.
I don't see long lines of EV at recharging stations for a couple years
so dump charging them is quick enough and a several hour recharge of the
packs in the trailer could still handle recharging 8 to 10 EV each day per
each pack in the trailer. Styling the trailer distinctively like a train
caboose perhaps and painted red so EV drivers could easily spot them.
Might be a good transitional business leasing space at existing gas
stations or selling /leasing the "EV Charging Caboose " to Fuel sales
operators. (They are in business to make money!) Could be a viable business
and might cost less than the $50K to set up a commercial EV recharger
station for retail sales.

Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
It ended because they started using their Brains !
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Steve Clunn <[email protected]> wrote:

> From: Dennis Miles
> >Perhaps we can get a comment from Steve Clunn at Greenshed.com but IIRC
> he
> fast-charged his mower from his pickup pack then recharged the pickup from
> a
> homeowners outlet while he cut their lawn with the mower, and trailered the
> mower to the next lawn service client and repeated the action<
>
> Yes, it was about 6 years ago when I converted my gas Dixie Chopper to
> Electric. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVFfOLpCupA And the next 3
> years of lawn mowing was so much fun that I could barely give it up to
> do Electric Car Conversions full time, which had been a dream of mine
> since I did my first car. My whole set up from the truck to the
> Electric Lawn Mower was an evolving situation. It didn't happen all
> at once. And it evolved out of just making due out of Life's
> Situations. Whenever I would get a new customer, I would tell them
> about my Electric Vehicle and my need to charge and offer them
> something in exchange to plug IN, if I needed to. If the customer
> felt that plugging IN was worth $5.00 or more, I would put a little
> check by their card, but never use their services. A third of my
> customers were happy to let me plug in to their dryer outlet, if I
> needed to. The lawn mower wasn't an "instant" success. When I first
> got it going, I didn't have a fast charging seupt, or even thought the
> possibility was there, so I would charge the lawn mower at home and
> cut the lawns in the neighborhood. Then leave the Electric Mower at
> home charging, and take the gas off to work. The Electric Mower was
> so much nicer to use and my back up gas mower was wearing out. ( I
> regularly wore out the gas engine every 2 years) So I was motivate to
> get the Electric Mower to do more. I bought a PFC-50 and started
> using the Mower and charging it from people's houses or pumping the
> power from the Truck into the Mower. This worked, but definitely
> slowed things up. I had read about "Dump Charging" on the internet
> and set up a Resistor Bank for my first try. After cutting the
> resistor bank back and still having things work, I made the jump and
> plugged the 120V Truck directly IN to the 96V Lawn Mower and much to
> my surprise, it was pretty much a "Non Event". No giant sparks (
> the difference really was only 24V ) and much to my delight, the Amp
> Gauge read 150 Amps. I watched the Voltmeter do a little "wave" ( at
> the start of the charge the Voltage went up and then came back down
> and then started going back up all within minutes ). This was really
> the beginning. At 150Amps it doesn't take long to put back 20ah. I
> had used AGM batteries in different cars and knew them that way. The
> lawn mower and fast charging showed them in a different light. If the
> Lawn Mower was a car and every lawn a 15 mile trip, I would have been
> driving a 100 miles a day ... easy. If someone was determined to
> drive their Electric Vehicle 150 miles a day, they could, just like
> me, do it with a vehicle that had a 30 mile range and make 5 or 10
> stops a day to charge for about 10 minutes. The AGM batteries, from
> my experience, were very happy being charged this way. I believe the
> batteries on the Lawn Mower experienced many more cycles than they
> would have in a regular vehicle. Over the 3 years that I did the
> lawns, I had 2 packs. And the first pack I lost by leaving it plugged
> in too long. ( Mowing my OWN yard even ! ) A lot of times I see
> people coming up with ideas on how others could do long distance
> travel, but I think the people that actually do long distance EV
> driving come up with solutions not often thought of. My "arm chair"
> solution for long distance travelers in Electric Cars would be a
> trailer full of batteries that one hooks up as they get ON the
> interstate and drops off as they get off the interstate. It wouldn't
> be too hard to have 100Kw of Lithium Batteries in a small U-Hal type
> trailer, an Anderson Plug to plug your car IN and an OFF switch for
> your car battery pack. One could run on the Trailer Batteries and
> charge their EV at the same time. When they get OFF the interstate,
> they leave the trailer at a charge station and the Batteries could
> even be charged with Solar Panels then. No need for battery
> "swapping" this way.
>
> Steve Clunn
> --
> Tomorrows Ride TODAY !
> Visit our shop web page at: www.Greenshedconversions.com
>
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My thoughts on Project Better Place:
http://ephase.blogspot.com/2010/12/project-better-place-exposed.html



Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
> http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=132020612&m=132020598
>
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Gosh, I read your blog and was so impressed I added a positive comment too.
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
It ended because they started using their Brains !
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

AMPhibian <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> My thoughts on Project Better Place:
> http://ephase.blogspot.com/2010/12/project-better-place-exposed.html
>
>
>
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> >
> >
> http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=132020612&m=132020598
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/NPR-story-on-electric-vehicle-charging-program-tp3085669p3090075.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
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Thanks for the feedback. A system that increases the cost and complexity of
EV's unnecessarily is not going to help the cause.


Dennis Miles wrote:
>
> Gosh, I read your blog and was so impressed I added a positive comment
> too.
> Regards,
> *Dennis Lee Miles*
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
> It ended because they started using their Brains !
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>
AMPhibian <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> My thoughts on Project Better Place:
>> http://ephase.blogspot.com/2010/12/project-better-place-exposed.html
>
>

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On 15 Dec 2010 at 11:19, Steve Clunn wrote:

> My "arm chair" solution for long distance travelers in Electric Cars
> would be a trailer full of batteries that one hooks up as they get ON
> the interstate and drops off as they get off the interstate.

If EVs catch on even a little with John and Jane Q. Public, this could be a
solid business idea.

The only "hitch" I can see (sorry) would be that the EVs would have to be
fitted with ... a hitch. Not only does that require a trip to the local
welders, it probably will void the warranty on some cars. Can you think of
a way to couple the trailer that wouldn't require a permanent hitch?

Here's a Lee-Hart-Mad idea : an autonomous trailer that follows you. You
rent what amounts to a self-driving vehicle, and a transmitter; it stays
right on your tail, using the signal from the transmitter to home in on you,
and sonar to maintain a proper following distance. Of course the downside
is that it uses some of its own energy to run down the road, but since it's
in your taildraft it might not be so bad.

OK, as I said, it's kind of a mad idea ...

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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On 15 Dec 2010 at 15:09, AMPhibian wrote:

> My thoughts on Project Better Place:

I use a prepaid mobile phone plan. It's WAY cheaper for my needs. But most
folks are happy to spend more and get packages with lots of "free" minutes.
Who am I to criticize?

For most of us on the EVDL, you are probably right. But for other, less EV-
savvy consumers, Agassi may have a winner here. With most folks, convenience
wins as long as the cost is within reason.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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My concern is that this model will catch on and become the dominant form,
with all EV manufacturers adopting the technology, driving up the cost of
every vehicle, and locking in a standardized pack that limits options and
innovation. This could mean being married to Better Place from the factory,
with no options. If BP catches on if you want a charge away from home you
might have to buy into their expensive system. It smells too much like oil
company monopoly.


EVDL Administrator wrote:
>
> On 15 Dec 2010 at 15:09, AMPhibian wrote:
>
>> My thoughts on Project Better Place:
>
> I use a prepaid mobile phone plan. It's WAY cheaper for my needs. But
> most
> folks are happy to spend more and get packages with lots of "free"
> minutes.
> Who am I to criticize?
>
> For most of us on the EVDL, you are probably right. But for other, less
> EV-
> savvy consumers, Agassi may have a winner here. With most folks,
> convenience
> wins as long as the cost is within reason.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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>

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Lee Hart wrote:

> On 12/16/2010 3:34 AM, EVDL Administrator wrote:
>> Can you think of a way to couple the trailer that wouldn't require a
>> permanent hitch?
>
> U-Haul rents temporary hitches; but they're heavy and awkward to
> install, and don't fit many cars.
>
>> Here's a Lee-Hart-Mad idea: an autonomous trailer that follows
>> you. You
>> rent what amounts to a self-driving vehicle, and a transmitter; it
>> stays
>> right on your tail, using the signal from the transmitter to home
>> in on you,
>> and sonar to maintain a proper following distance. Of course the
>> downside
>> is that it uses some of its own energy to run down the road, but
>> since it's
>> in your taildraft it might not be so bad.
>
> It doesn't seem mad to me (bwoo hah hah hah...) :)
>
> Auto manufacturers don't like hitches. A heavy trailer puts a lot of
> strain on the hitch, and they aren't designing cars to have as large a
> safety margin as they used to. The lawyers worry that incompetent
> drivers will get into trouble towing a trailer and blame someone else
> (in court).
>
> It seems like a "pusher" trailer could be designed to get around these
> problems. It would have its own motor (electric or ICE) and brakes,
> and
> so relieve the stress on the hitch. It could even steer itself, to
> minimize the side loads during cornering so the car handles exactly
> the
> same as it did without the trailer. The hitch could be much simpler
> and
> lighter duty.
>
> Failure modes could be a problem. Also, making it legal would be a
> real
> fight.

There's a reason that the engine on a train is pulling, not pushing.

I would hate to be in a EV with a pusher trailer and have to do an
emergency maneuver. Its bad enough pulling a trailer. I'm not a fan
of the "pusher" trailer. It would be safer hauling a genset, although
you do loose efficiency.

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Tell that to Amtrak.


On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 7:47 AM, Roger Heuckeroth
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
> There's a reason that the engine on a train is pulling, not pushing.
>
> I would hate to be in a EV with a pusher trailer and have to do an
> emergency maneuver. Its bad enough pulling a trailer. I'm not a fan
> of the "pusher" trailer. It would be safer hauling a genset, although
> you do loose efficiency.
>
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-- =

www.electric-lemon.com

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Yes, David,
I know of several successful ways to pull a trailer which do not
require a welded on hitch; Some bolt on thru existing holes in the frame.
Some hitches clamp to the "Pumpkin" in the center of the rear axle, these do
not strain the suspension and allow easier backing geometry similar to a 5th
wheel hitch. And there are also linkages connecting to rear suspension
mounting points which will steer a trailer when backing so it stays aligned
with the towing vehicle, some as simple as crossed chains preventing side to
side movement. since only a few feet of backing is required for many miles
of driving a little side "Scrubbing" has little affect on tire life, that
occurs only when backing with the chains holding the trailer in line. And
other schemes steering the trailer axle.
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
It ended because they started using their Brains !
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The "Age of OIL" won't end because we run out of OIL,
it will end because we realize Electricity is a Better Solution!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 15 Dec 2010 at 11:19, Steve Clunn wrote:
>
> > My "arm chair" solution for long distance travelers in Electric Cars
> > would be a trailer full of batteries that one hooks up as they get ON
> > the interstate and drops off as they get off the interstate.
>
> If EVs catch on even a little with John and Jane Q. Public, this could be a
> solid business idea.
>
> The only "hitch" I can see (sorry) would be that the EVs would have to be
> fitted with ... a hitch. Not only does that require a trip to the local
> welders, it probably will void the warranty on some cars. Can you think of
> a way to couple the trailer that wouldn't require a permanent hitch?
>
> Here's a Lee-Hart-Mad idea : an autonomous trailer that follows you. You
> rent what amounts to a self-driving vehicle, and a transmitter; it stays
> right on your tail, using the signal from the transmitter to home in on
> you,
> and sonar to maintain a proper following distance. Of course the downside
> is that it uses some of its own energy to run down the road, but since it's
> in your taildraft it might not be so bad.
>
> OK, as I said, it's kind of a mad idea ...
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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