[EVDL List]

As you know from all the things you HAVE DONE, the key is in the
details, but you don't and really can't provide them without a confirmed
working design.
Given the amount of time you spend on the list, take 10% of it and get a
working controller design to share.

I think the same standard to others to do something and not just talk
applies equally to the list gods as to the newbies, that is just fair
and honest.

Jack

Lee Hart wrote:
> Jack Murray wrote:
>
>>Lee, when will you put your words to practice,
>>not tell others how to do things, but do it yourself?
>
>
> I *have* built controllers! Most other parts of EVs as well (chargers,
> DC/DC converters, instrumentation, battery managment systems, etc.)!
>
> I am trying to give Dan (and others) the benefit of my experience, to
> save them time and money on things that don't work. Whenever my advice
> says that something won't work, I also try to provide guidance on how to
> change it or what to add to fix the problem.
>
> And, I am building EVs myself, and helping others build theirs.
>


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Jack Murray <[email protected]> wrote:
> As you know from all the things you HAVE DONE, the key is in the
> details, but you don't and really can't provide them without a confirmed
> working design.
> Given the amount of time you spend on the list, take 10% of it and get a
> working controller design to share.
>
> I think the same standard to others to do something and not just talk
> applies equally to the list gods as to the newbies, that is just fair
> and honest.

So he's reading the list and giving advice in his free time, and he
should just drop 10% of that and do more engineering work like his day
job just for our benefit? It's one thing for people to tell you to do
your own work; it's another for you to tell him to do a ton of work
that only we benefit from.

I think it's pretty nice of him to look over Dan's design and provide
advice; now you expect him to do the entire design for us? Would you
expect him to debug it for us, too? That would take a lot more than
"10% of the time he spends on EVDL."

Maybe he made a schematic but didn't update it after debugging. I know
I've done that before - make a schematic, build it, change some things
so it works. Now that it works and you think it's just for you, you
don't want to go back and update the schematic. It's even worse if you
know of things that should be changed but haven't done it yet.

Yeah, I'd like to see some of his DC-DC or controller designs. I'd
like to see them as-is, though, without him putting tons of effort
into touching them up and making them work. And I don't feel like he
has a responsibility to post them or anything, but I get that
impression from you.

If you don't have the experience with electronics, you can always use
the 'trial and error' method to figure out what circuit protection you
need. That can get expensive, though.

-Morgan LaMoore

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Dan Frederiksen trolled:
>> then why haven't you made them public?
>>
Jack Murray trolled:
> Given the amount of time you spend on the list, take 10% of it and get a
> working controller design to share.
>
Lee,

This should go without saying, but thank you for your advice to me and
your contributions to the EV community as a whole.

Please don't let the trolls bother you.

Thanks again,
Cory Cross

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From: Jack Murray
> As you know from all the things you HAVE DONE, the key is in the
> details, but you don't and really can't provide them without a confirmed
> working design. Given the amount of time you spend on the list, take
> 10% of it and get a working controller design to share.

See the EV list archive for July 2001. I posted the complete schematic
and board layout for the Petrosonics controller. You can see it at
www.austinev.org/evalbum/tech/petroson.pdf

This is a 24vdc 150amp controller, but has all the bits and pieces needed for an EV sized controller like the Curtis (current limit, overtemp protection, open or shorted pot detection, adequate safety margin for the parts, etc.) Note that it takes six 55v 41a 0.024ohm MOSFETs.

--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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Lee Hart wrote:

> See the EV list archive for July 2001. . . .
---------------------------------------
Hey Bob Rice,

Don't you think a donation to the Sunrise EV2 Project via PayPal at

leeahart-at-earthlink.net

would be better than an apology for failing to search the archives?

I looked at all the pictures at <http://www.sunrise-ev.com/pics>

Encouraging!

John, Skeptic in Sylmar, CA
PV EV

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Ouch. Those pics have datestamps from 7 years ago.

-----Original Message-----
I looked at all the pictures at <http://www.sunrise-ev.com/pics>

Encouraging!

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of course lee provides lots of good advice and valuable insights,
everyone knows that. But the subject is an open source controller design,
and on that subject, the advice is less than useful, its is in fact
misleading, because the problem is not solved by 2-minute emails,
it takes hard work, debugging, testing, and on this front, I'll suggest
Lee get it done himself. If he doesn't I understand completely,
you just can't have it both ways, appear to be helping, and yet not
doing anything.
Jack

Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> Jack Murray <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>As you know from all the things you HAVE DONE, the key is in the
>>details, but you don't and really can't provide them without a confirmed
>>working design.
>>Given the amount of time you spend on the list, take 10% of it and get a
>>working controller design to share.
>>
>>I think the same standard to others to do something and not just talk
>>applies equally to the list gods as to the newbies, that is just fair
>>and honest.
>
>
> So he's reading the list and giving advice in his free time, and he
> should just drop 10% of that and do more engineering work like his day
> job just for our benefit? It's one thing for people to tell you to do
> your own work; it's another for you to tell him to do a ton of work
> that only we benefit from.
>
> I think it's pretty nice of him to look over Dan's design and provide
> advice; now you expect him to do the entire design for us? Would you
> expect him to debug it for us, too? That would take a lot more than
> "10% of the time he spends on EVDL."
>
> Maybe he made a schematic but didn't update it after debugging. I know
> I've done that before - make a schematic, build it, change some things
> so it works. Now that it works and you think it's just for you, you
> don't want to go back and update the schematic. It's even worse if you
> know of things that should be changed but haven't done it yet.
>
> Yeah, I'd like to see some of his DC-DC or controller designs. I'd
> like to see them as-is, though, without him putting tons of effort
> into touching them up and making them work. And I don't feel like he
> has a responsibility to post them or anything, but I get that
> impression from you.
>
> If you don't have the experience with electronics, you can always use
> the 'trial and error' method to figure out what circuit protection you
> need. That can get expensive, though.
>
> -Morgan LaMoore
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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Yeah Lee, why are you wasting time on your day job? You don't really need
to pay the rent or put food on the table. Fasting is good for the sole.

Quit your day job and spend all of your time developing controllers for
cheep ass freeloaders. Oh, and finish up the Sunrise.

I'm sure you can last two months or so before you starve and they kick you
out of your house. Plenty of time to do all this free work for others and
save them a bundle of money, and that is what is really important.

So stop wasting your time trying to give them usefull advice.

No seriously, stop wasting your time, and the list bandwidth, on these
cretins.

> of course lee provides lots of good advice and valuable insights,
> everyone knows that. But the subject is an open source controller design,
> and on that subject, the advice is less than useful, its is in fact
> misleading, because the problem is not solved by 2-minute emails,
> it takes hard work, debugging, testing, and on this front, I'll suggest
> Lee get it done himself. If he doesn't I understand completely,
> you just can't have it both ways, appear to be helping, and yet not
> doing anything.
> Jack
>

> Morgan LaMoore wrote:
>> Jack Murray <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>As you know from all the things you HAVE DONE, the key is in the
>>>details, but you don't and really can't provide them without a confirmed
>>>working design.
>>>Given the amount of time you spend on the list, take 10% of it and get a
>>>working controller design to share.
>>>
>>>I think the same standard to others to do something and not just talk
>>>applies equally to the list gods as to the newbies, that is just fair
>>>and honest.
>>
>>
>> So he's reading the list and giving advice in his free time, and he
>> should just drop 10% of that and do more engineering work like his day
>> job just for our benefit? It's one thing for people to tell you to do
>> your own work; it's another for you to tell him to do a ton of work
>> that only we benefit from.
>>
>> I think it's pretty nice of him to look over Dan's design and provide
>> advice; now you expect him to do the entire design for us? Would you
>> expect him to debug it for us, too? That would take a lot more than
>> "10% of the time he spends on EVDL."
>>
>> Maybe he made a schematic but didn't update it after debugging. I know
>> I've done that before - make a schematic, build it, change some things
>> so it works. Now that it works and you think it's just for you, you
>> don't want to go back and update the schematic. It's even worse if you
>> know of things that should be changed but haven't done it yet.
>>
>> Yeah, I'd like to see some of his DC-DC or controller designs. I'd
>> like to see them as-is, though, without him putting tons of effort
>> into touching them up and making them work. And I don't feel like he
>> has a responsibility to post them or anything, but I get that
>> impression from you.
>>
>> If you don't have the experience with electronics, you can always use
>> the 'trial and error' method to figure out what circuit protection you
>> need. That can get expensive, though.
>>
>> -Morgan LaMoore
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

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Jack Murray <[email protected]> wrote:
> of course lee provides lots of good advice and valuable insights,
> everyone knows that. But the subject is an open source controller design,
> and on that subject, the advice is less than useful, its is in fact
> misleading, because the problem is not solved by 2-minute emails,
> it takes hard work, debugging, testing, and on this front, I'll suggest
> Lee get it done himself. If he doesn't I understand completely,
> you just can't have it both ways, appear to be helping, and yet not
> doing anything.
> Jack

Wow. We want an open-source controller design, so Lee should design,
debug, and test it for us? That seems really hypocritical. Lee doesn't
want an open-source controller design; he's happy using commercial
controllers. Why should he put in all those hours of work for our
benefit? Even you admit that the controller design will take lots and
lots of hard work, debugging, and testing, but you still expect Lee to
do that and give it away for free? He's already helping us out with
his advice, and you're yelling at him for not doing hundreds of times
more work as a charity to us?

You may not find his e-mails useful, but I know enough EE that I can
understand his advice and think of ways for me to implement it in a
circuit. His advice and e-mails may not magically solve all of our
problems for us, but they will probably cut hours and hours off of the
debugging time that we spend on the design.

How much do you even know about EE? This isn't a way for random EVers
to get a cheap controller; it's a design project for people with EE
knowledge to learn more about controllers and build their own. It will
take a lot of work, and the debugging and testing phase may cost more
than it would to just buy a controller. It's an even worse picture if
you factor in the time-money equivalence. I'm interested in doing it
for fun, not because it would be easier/cheaper/faster than buying a
commercial controller. It won't be.

If we want an open-source controller design, we will have to put some
effort into designing, debugging, and testing one. You don't like it?
Too bad. Someone else may decide to make one and make it public, but
it's ridiculous to insult people who don't.

-Morgan LaMoore

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well Jack, I don't think Lee HAS to do it just because he answers
questions but I agree he could give it a shot. especially to the extent
that he already has. but remembering from previous questions maybe what
has kept him from designing own is that it was some time ago and wasn't
based on a microcontroller which would simplify a lot.

even if he doesn't his comments have been quite helpful to me at least
even though he has held some things back, somewhat understandably but
also somewhat needlessly, namely what he has learned from the zilla.
that's an old wound, maybe we don't need to go there
too me it's a bit silly and hypocritical that people open their
controller to satisfy own curiosity but wont share it with others. be
that as it may, it looks like we are arriving at a design without that
particular knowledge.

btw, Lee I noticed your? design of the petrosonic controller uses only
246A worth of fets and accomplish a rating of 150A. that's a 61%
utility. what happened to 'they don't parallel well, are greatlty
overrated and you must derate a factor 2 or more' ? : )

Dan

Jack Murray wrote:

>of course lee provides lots of good advice and valuable insights,
>everyone knows that. But the subject is an open source controller design,
>and on that subject, the advice is less than useful, its is in fact
>misleading, because the problem is not solved by 2-minute emails,
>it takes hard work, debugging, testing, and on this front, I'll suggest
>Lee get it done himself. If he doesn't I understand completely,
>you just can't have it both ways, appear to be helping, and yet not
>doing anything.
>Jack
>
>

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Dan Frederiksen <[email protected]> wrote:
> ...
> even if he doesn't his comments have been quite helpful to me at least
> even though he has held some things back, somewhat understandably but
> also somewhat needlessly, namely what he has learned from the zilla.
> that's an old wound, maybe we don't need to go there
> too me it's a bit silly and hypocritical that people open their
> controller to satisfy own curiosity but wont share it with others. be
> that as it may, it looks like we are arriving at a design without that
> particular knowledge.

Maybe he's doing it out of respect to Otmar - Otmar put a lot of work
into the Zilla, and it wouldn't be quite right if we could just take
the benefit of Otmar's work and leave him out of the loop.

> btw, Lee I noticed your? design of the petrosonic controller uses only
> 246A worth of fets and accomplish a rating of 150A. that's a 61%
> utility. what happened to 'they don't parallel well, are greatlty
> overrated and you must derate a factor 2 or more' ? : )

He made that circuit a while ago, and he mentioned that it could use
some improvements. He may not have used a big enough derate when he
designed it.

The more you put in parallel, the bigger derating factor you need.
He's using just over half of the rated capacity, but he's only using 6
FETs. If you switch to IGBT, or if you increase the number of parts,
the derate factor has to increase.

IGBT vs. FET makes a huge difference: with increasing temperature,
MOSFET resistance increases, so warmer ones will let less current
through. This will do a natural balancing act, helping the transistors
share current evenly.

On the other hand, IGBT saturation voltage goes down as temperature
increases. This means that, in parallel, when one is getting warm, it
will conduct more current, making it dissipate more heat, making the
problem worse. This leads to a much bigger derate factor for IGBT than
MOSFET.

I think that daerating by a factor of 2 is only a ballpark figure. For
only 6 MOSFETs in parallel, a derate of 1.64 may be good enough, while
for more transistors (like the Curtis's 30-ish) or IGBTs, you need a
bigger derate, possibly 3 or more.

-Morgan LaMoore

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>> I looked at all the pictures at <http://www.sunrise-ev.com/pics>

[email protected] wrote:
> Ouch. Those pics have datestamps from 7 years ago.

Which shows that we don't know how to set the clock in the camera.
These are really just "grab shots" that we put there as filler while we
are setting up the website. They aren't intended for public consumption.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> btw, Lee I noticed your? design of the petrosonic controller uses only
> 246A worth of fets and accomplish a rating of 150A. that's a 61%
> utility. what happened to 'they don't parallel well, are greatlty
> overrated and you must derate a factor 2 or more' ? : )

I didn't design the Petrosonics controller; I reverse-engineered a dead
one to fix it. Since the product was out of production and the company
out of business, there was no harm to publishing my results.

The fact that the MOSFETs were dead tells me that they didn't derate
them quite enough. So if I were doing it, I'd either turn the current
limit down some more, or use more or bigger MOSFETs.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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> Yeah Lee, why are you wasting time on your day job? You don't really need
> to pay the rent or put food on the table. Fasting is good for the sole.
>
> Quit your day job and spend all of your time developing controllers for
> cheep ass freeloaders. Oh, and finish up the Sunrise.
>
> I'm sure you can last two months or so before you starve and they kick you
> out of your house. Plenty of time to do all this free work for others and
> save them a bundle of money, and that is what is really important.
>
> So stop wasting your time trying to give them usefull advice.
>
> No seriously, stop wasting your time, and the list bandwidth, on these
> cretins.
>

Controllers, controllers, controllers. Every EV has one, everyone wants
one, but only two current EV Discussion List members (that I know of) have
successfully designed, manufactured and marketed a controller through
their own company:

http://www.cafeelectric.com/ and

http://russcoev.com/drivesystem.html

Controller design is no easy task. I recently needed a controller that
would not only motor Orange Juicer II, but provide field excitation for
regenerative braking. So, I built my own controller. Took two months of
work in between charger production. Cost me $11,600 for my time---for a
$2000 controller. But it performs well and meets my needs.

Designing the electronics for a controller is difficult, but the
mechanical layout is 10 times more difficult. It may take three minutes
to drill and tap a 10-32 through hole in 3/8 aluminum, but deciding where
to drill the hole may take half an hour. Such is development.

As promised, I have a picture of the inside of the controller on the
Russco website:

http://www.russcoev.com/oj_motor_controller.html

Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO Engineering

http://www.russcoev.com

The Other PFC Charger With Built In GFCI





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