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Discussion Starter #1
Hello folks,

There was a recent discussion on the radio about rare earth materials -- they are not rare, actually; but the concern is that 95%+ of the production is in China. Apparently the most uncommon of these so-called rare earth materials are about 10X more common than gold; so their name is a misnomer. Here's a link to the radio show:

http://www.onpointradio.org/2010/10/rare-earth-minerals

My question is: can the permanent magnets used in EV motors be reused (by "zapping" them to strengthen them which I know can work with ceramic magnets), and/or can they be recycled at the end of their useful life? Do you think that rare earth magnets are required to get the best efficiency, or can AC motors be virtually as efficient; and avoid the need for any permanent magnets?

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/


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Discussion Starter #2
AC motors can be very efficient. Unfortunately, they use a lot of copper.
Copper actually isn't that especially abundant and we use tons of it. I've
heard some rumblings that our copper supply might really dry up within the
next 20-50 years. So, I wonder if it isn't more likely to have a problem
getting copper than it is to get "rare" earth metals. Of course, copper can
readily be recycled but isn't always these days.

On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Neil Blanchard
<[email protected]>wrote:

> Hello folks,
>
> There was a recent discussion on the radio about rare earth materials --
> they are not rare, actually; but the concern is that 95%+ of the production
> is in China. Apparently the most uncommon of these so-called rare earth
> materials are about 10X more common than gold; so their name is a misnomer.
> Here's a link to the radio show:
>
> http://www.onpointradio.org/2010/10/rare-earth-minerals
>
> My question is: can the permanent magnets used in EV motors be reused (by
> "zapping" them to strengthen them which I know can work with ceramic
> magnets), and/or can they be recycled at the end of their useful life? Do
> you think that rare earth magnets are required to get the best efficiency,
> or can AC motors be virtually as efficient; and avoid the need for any
> permanent magnets?
>
> Sincerely, Neil
> http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Discussion Starter #3
It was said before:
landfills will become the new goldmines...
Luckily that AC motors do not require to
be manufactured from copper, though it is
the best material.
Alternatives will certainly come, for example
aluminum can replace a lot of copper applications.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Collin Kidder
Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 9:05 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Rare Earth magnets: can they be reused/recycled,or
avoided?

AC motors can be very efficient. Unfortunately, they use a lot of
copper.
Copper actually isn't that especially abundant and we use tons of it.
I've heard some rumblings that our copper supply might really dry up
within the next 20-50 years. So, I wonder if it isn't more likely to
have a problem getting copper than it is to get "rare" earth metals. Of
course, copper can readily be recycled but isn't always these days.

On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Neil Blanchard
<[email protected]>wrote:

> Hello folks,
>
> There was a recent discussion on the radio about rare earth materials
> -- they are not rare, actually; but the concern is that 95%+ of the
> production is in China. Apparently the most uncommon of these
> so-called rare earth materials are about 10X more common than gold; so
their name is a misnomer.
> Here's a link to the radio show:
>
> http://www.onpointradio.org/2010/10/rare-earth-minerals
>
> My question is: can the permanent magnets used in EV motors be reused

> (by "zapping" them to strengthen them which I know can work with
> ceramic magnets), and/or can they be recycled at the end of their
> useful life? Do you think that rare earth magnets are required to get

> the best efficiency, or can AC motors be virtually as efficient; and
> avoid the need for any permanent magnets?
>
> Sincerely, Neil
> http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
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Discussion Starter #4
Hello,

> It was said before:
> landfills will become the new goldmines...
> Luckily that AC motors do not require to
> be manufactured from copper, though it is
> the best material.
> Alternatives will certainly come, for example
> aluminum can replace a lot of copper applications.

Carbon wires? They would be lighter weight!

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/

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Discussion Starter #5
Collin Kidder wrote:
> AC motors can be very efficient. Unfortunately, they use a lot of
> copper. Copper actually isn't that especially abundant and we use
> tons of it. I've heard some rumblings that our copper supply might
> really dry up within the next 20-50 years.

I'm not particularly worried about materials that are not "used up", and
can easily be reclaimed and recycled. Copper is one of them, as are most
other metals. We just have to transition to an economy that focuses on
recycling rather than mining.

Neil Blanchard
>> can the permanent magnets used in EV motors be reused...
>> and/or can they be recycled at the end of
>> their useful life?

Yes, of course they can. But like way too many things, right now they
are more likely to be thrown out in the trash.

>> Do you think that rare earth magnets are
>> required to get the best efficiency, or can AC motors be virtually
>> as efficient; and avoid the need for any permanent magnets?

There is no significant difference in efficiency between AC and DC
motors. As we've discussed many times, *all* motors are really AC motors.

Motors with magnets (AC or DC) are slightly smaller, and more efficient
at their optimum operating point, and slightly less efficient at other
operating points.

Motors without magnets are a little bigger and heavier, but have a
broader torque/speed/horsepower range.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Discussion Starter #6
Thank you Lee, for your clear and concise answer.

> Collin Kidder wrote:
>> AC motors can be very efficient. Unfortunately, they use a lot of
>> copper. Copper actually isn't that especially abundant and we use
>> tons of it. I've heard some rumblings that our copper supply might
>> really dry up within the next 20-50 years.
>
> I'm not particularly worried about materials that are not "used up", and
> can easily be reclaimed and recycled. Copper is one of them, as are most
> other metals. We just have to transition to an economy that focuses on
> recycling rather than mining.
>
> Neil Blanchard
>>> can the permanent magnets used in EV motors be reused...
>>> and/or can they be recycled at the end of
>>> their useful life?
>
> Yes, of course they can. But like way too many things, right now they
> are more likely to be thrown out in the trash.
>
>>> Do you think that rare earth magnets are
>>> required to get the best efficiency, or can AC motors be virtually
>>> as efficient; and avoid the need for any permanent magnets?
>
> There is no significant difference in efficiency between AC and DC
> motors. As we've discussed many times, *all* motors are really AC motors.
>
> Motors with magnets (AC or DC) are slightly smaller, and more efficient
> at their optimum operating point, and slightly less efficient at other
> operating points.
>
> Motors without magnets are a little bigger and heavier, but have a
> broader torque/speed/horsepower range.

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/

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Discussion Starter #7
One of the standard weapons in the anti EV arsenal is the "rare earth" magnet
argument. AC induction motors completely eliminate the problem and are
quite efficient. As for copper, I'd guess there is enough copper piping
that could be replaced with PVC and PEX tubing to build millions of motors.


Neil Blanchard wrote:
>
> Hello folks,
>
> There was a recent discussion on the radio about rare earth materials --
> they are not rare, actually; but the concern is that 95%+ of the
> production is in China. Apparently the most uncommon of these so-called
> rare earth materials are about 10X more common than gold; so their name is
> a misnomer. Here's a link to the radio show:
>
> http://www.onpointradio.org/2010/10/rare-earth-minerals
>
> My question is: can the permanent magnets used in EV motors be reused (by
> "zapping" them to strengthen them which I know can work with ceramic
> magnets), and/or can they be recycled at the end of their useful life? Do
> you think that rare earth magnets are required to get the best efficiency,
> or can AC motors be virtually as efficient; and avoid the need for any
> permanent magnets?
>
> Sincerely, Neil
> http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>

--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Rare-Earth-magnets-can-they-be-reused-recycled-or-avoided-tp2966854p2967789.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Discussion Starter #8
That's been tried before, with dubious results. Aluminum-wound motors run
hotter, and the windings don't last,as aluminum corrodes much faster than
copper if it gets moisture-damaged. Would be disastrous in an EV.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]


----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Rare Earth magnets: can they be reused/recycled,or
avoided?


> It was said before:
> landfills will become the new goldmines...
> Luckily that AC motors do not require to
> be manufactured from copper, though it is
> the best material.
> Alternatives will certainly come, for example
> aluminum can replace a lot of copper applications.
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Collin Kidder
> Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 9:05 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Rare Earth magnets: can they be reused/recycled,or
> avoided?
>
> AC motors can be very efficient. Unfortunately, they use a lot of
> copper.
> Copper actually isn't that especially abundant and we use tons of it.
> I've heard some rumblings that our copper supply might really dry up
> within the next 20-50 years. So, I wonder if it isn't more likely to
> have a problem getting copper than it is to get "rare" earth metals. Of
> course, copper can readily be recycled but isn't always these days.
>
> On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Neil Blanchard
> <[email protected]>wrote:
>
>> Hello folks,
>>
>> There was a recent discussion on the radio about rare earth materials
>> -- they are not rare, actually; but the concern is that 95%+ of the
>> production is in China. Apparently the most uncommon of these
>> so-called rare earth materials are about 10X more common than gold; so
> their name is a misnomer.
>> Here's a link to the radio show:
>>
>> http://www.onpointradio.org/2010/10/rare-earth-minerals
>>
>> My question is: can the permanent magnets used in EV motors be reused
>
>> (by "zapping" them to strengthen them which I know can work with
>> ceramic magnets), and/or can they be recycled at the end of their
>> useful life? Do you think that rare earth magnets are required to get
>
>> the best efficiency, or can AC motors be virtually as efficient; and
>> avoid the need for any permanent magnets?
>>
>> Sincerely, Neil
>> http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
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Discussion Starter #9
Collin Kidder wrote:

> AC motors can be very efficient. Unfortunately, they use a lot of
> copper.
> Copper actually isn't that especially abundant and we use tons of
> it. I've
> heard some rumblings that our copper supply might really dry up
> within the
> next 20-50 years. So, I wonder if it isn't more likely to have a
> problem
> getting copper than it is to get "rare" earth metals. Of course,
> copper can
> readily be recycled but isn't always these days.
>
> On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Neil Blanchard
> <[email protected]>wrote:
>
>> Hello folks,
>>
>> There was a recent discussion on the radio about rare earth
>> materials --
>> ...
>> My question is: can the permanent magnets used in EV motors be
>> reused (by
>> "zapping" them to strengthen them which I know can work with ceramic
>> magnets), and/or can they be recycled at the end of their useful
>> life? Do
>> you think that rare earth magnets are required to get the best
>> efficiency,
>> or can AC motors be virtually as efficient; and avoid the need for
>> any
>> permanent magnets?
>>
>> Sincerely, Neil
>> http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/

100... 50 (less?) years from now, we'll be 'mining' all our landfill
sites for precious plastics and metals... Too bad that a lot of it
will have decomposed by then.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



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Discussion Starter #10
Hello folks,

>> AC motors can be very efficient. Unfortunately, they use a lot of
>> copper. Copper actually isn't that especially abundant and we use tons of
>> it. I've heard some rumblings that our copper supply might really dry up
>> within the next 20-50 years. So, I wonder if it isn't more likely to have a
>> problem getting copper than it is to get "rare" earth metals. Of course,
>> copper can readily be recycled but isn't always these days.

What about carbon wires in electric motors?

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/


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Discussion Starter #11
Copper is recycled a lot in these parts, often when it's not wanted to
be recycled (theft). As the value of the metal goes up, so does the
money paid for scrap metal, and recycling goes up. You can incentivize
it (like recycling lead-acid batteries for cars) and you'll get some
awesome recycling rates. At one time I read that cars were the most
successfully recycled item, around 90% (don't have a source on this).

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Neil Blanchard
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 9:47 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Rare Earth magnets: can they be reused/recycled,or
avoided?

Hello folks,

>> AC motors can be very efficient. Unfortunately, they use a lot of
>> copper. Copper actually isn't that especially abundant and we use
tons of
>> it. I've heard some rumblings that our copper supply might really dry
up
>> within the next 20-50 years. So, I wonder if it isn't more likely to
have a
>> problem getting copper than it is to get "rare" earth metals. Of
course,
>> copper can readily be recycled but isn't always these days.

What about carbon wires in electric motors?

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/


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