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[EVDL] Reaction time (was: Bill Dube nominated for Darwin Award.)

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E
I did manage to shut it down in about a second, but it goes quite a
distance in a second.

It was not difficult to shut down, but it takes a finite amount of
time for a human to react. No matter what you choose as a shut-down,
the driver must react in _some_ way first. This takes about 3/4
second. Simply deciding to operate the brakes takes about 3/4 of a
second. No disconnect system would have worked faster than what
actually occurred.

I _almost_ got it stopped. I needed about another 10 to 20 ft. That
is where I personally stopped, you will notice. Had the bike been
moving very fast, I would have gone a long way before I stopped. I
came to rest about ten feet beyond the car. This is where the bike
would have stopped. (Actually before that point.)

The front forks are bent. The front wheel is bent. The pack has a
dent from the wheel. The front cowling is cracked. Everything else is
just fine. The front forks and wheel are very lightweight aluminum,
so they crumpled right up with this very minor impact.

Bill D.

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E
I think the distinction is, no human operated kill system could have
operated fast enough given the circumstances. I think you did as well as
possible. But I think a totally automatic system triggered by a combination
of inputs that should never coincide could have shut down power faster than
any human can react, within milliseconds.

High motor current plus brake lights has got to mean trouble.

Are the forks and wheel off the shelf items?

Marty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dube" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 1:31 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Reaction time (was: Bill Dube nominated for Darwin Award.)


>I did manage to shut it down in about a second, but it goes quite a
> distance in a second.
>
> It was not difficult to shut down, but it takes a finite amount of
> time for a human to react. No matter what you choose as a shut-down,
> the driver must react in _some_ way first. This takes about 3/4
> second. Simply deciding to operate the brakes takes about 3/4 of a
> second. No disconnect system would have worked faster than what
> actually occurred.
>
> I _almost_ got it stopped. I needed about another 10 to 20 ft. That
> is where I personally stopped, you will notice. Had the bike been
> moving very fast, I would have gone a long way before I stopped. I
> came to rest about ten feet beyond the car. This is where the bike
> would have stopped. (Actually before that point.)
>
> The front forks are bent. The front wheel is bent. The pack has a
> dent from the wheel. The front cowling is cracked. Everything else is
> just fine. The front forks and wheel are very lightweight aluminum,
> so they crumpled right up with this very minor impact.
>
> Bill D.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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E
In a message dated 9/15/2007 1:18:06 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:

I think the distinction is, no human operated kill system could have
operated fast enough given the circumstances. I think you did as well as
possible. But I think a totally automatic system triggered by a combination
of inputs that should never coincide could have shut down power faster than
any human can react, within milliseconds.

High motor current plus brake lights has got to mean trouble.

Are the forks and wheel off the shelf items?

Marty>>>>

I set up my electric three wheeler with a "load shed" relay in the brake
light circuit. I grab the brakes and all power shuts down....

Matt Parkhouse
Colorado Springs, CO
BMW m/c-Golf Cart trike - 48 volts, 30mph on the flat, 35 mile range 2,300
EV ,iles
1972 VW Van - to be converted this year!



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E
Good idea.

This is a common circuit in practically all electric scooters. It's
often called a "brake inhibit" switch.

Some scooters have the switches mounted in both handgrips. When you
break the controller turns off.

It's on the Currie Schwinn, Mongoose and iZip kids electric scooters
as well as the cheap chinese scooters. Pretty much every electric
scooter has a brake inhibit swtich.

But as Bill said it takes 3/4s of a second for a human to react. Add
a little more time because you're trying to gain control of the bike
plus you're surprised and scared senseless before the "save yourself"
reaction sets in.

I installed a fancy 24-volt Curtis controller for a client's personal
mobility scooter a while back. It was for an older gent who is in his
80's and who owns a construction company so he needed it to get
around the yard. When it sensed full throttle it shut down.

Chip Gribben

www.ElectroScooterWorks.com


[email protected] wrote:

> I think the distinction is, no human operated kill system could have
> operated fast enough given the circumstances. I think you did as
> well as
> possible. But I think a totally automatic system triggered by a
> combination
> of inputs that should never coincide could have shut down power
> faster than
> any human can react, within milliseconds.
>
> High motor current plus brake lights has got to mean trouble.
>
> Are the forks and wheel off the shelf items?
>
> Marty>>>>
>
> I set up my electric three wheeler with a "load shed" relay in the
> brake
> light circuit. I grab the brakes and all power shuts down....

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I agree, a completely automatic system can clearly react faster than a
human-controlled killswitch. However, "high motor current plus brake
lights" is not automatic; the rider still has to be hitting the brakes.
I kind of like the jetski-esque deadman switch, attached to some fixed
object (lamppost?) for burnouts and to the rider otherwise.

Marty Hewes wrote:
> I think the distinction is, no human operated kill system could have
> operated fast enough given the circumstances. I think you did as well as
> possible. But I think a totally automatic system triggered by a combination
> of inputs that should never coincide could have shut down power faster than
> any human can react, within milliseconds.
>
> High motor current plus brake lights has got to mean trouble.
>
> Are the forks and wheel off the shelf items?
>
> Marty
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Dube" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 1:31 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] Reaction time (was: Bill Dube nominated for Darwin Award.)
>
>
> >I did manage to shut it down in about a second, but it goes quite a
> > distance in a second.
> >
> > It was not difficult to shut down, but it takes a finite amount of
> > time for a human to react. No matter what you choose as a shut-down,
> > the driver must react in _some_ way first. This takes about 3/4
> > second. Simply deciding to operate the brakes takes about 3/4 of a
> > second. No disconnect system would have worked faster than what
> > actually occurred.
> >
> > I _almost_ got it stopped. I needed about another 10 to 20 ft. That
> > is where I personally stopped, you will notice. Had the bike been
> > moving very fast, I would have gone a long way before I stopped. I
> > came to rest about ten feet beyond the car. This is where the bike
> > would have stopped. (Actually before that point.)
> >
> > The front forks are bent. The front wheel is bent. The pack has a
> > dent from the wheel. The front cowling is cracked. Everything else is
> > just fine. The front forks and wheel are very lightweight aluminum,
> > so they crumpled right up with this very minor impact.
> >
> > Bill D.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
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While safety devices are a neat idea I think the whole
subject has gone a bit out of hand in telling Bill
what he should do with with his bike that he built.
Also nominating Bill for a simple mistake for a Darwin
award is pretty cruel. A lapse in judgment maybe. But
to display him a a genetic mistake about to correct
itself is going a bit far. Especially as he was almost
stopped and only bailed to avoid further injury.
Rolling and and sliding across side walk at 20 mph
verse slapping a van at 20 mph without safety gear
could have been deadly. Sudden stops are harder on the
body. I hope we all learn lessons from Bills mistake.
1) Always have a helmet on when performing any high
powered demonstration on a bike.
Every burnout on the Track Scott has a helmet on
during the burnout.


--- Hunter Cook <[email protected]> wrote:

> I agree, a completely automatic system can clearly
> react faster than a
> human-controlled killswitch. However, "high motor
> current plus brake
> lights" is not automatic; the rider still has to be
> hitting the brakes.
> I kind of like the jetski-esque deadman switch,
> attached to some fixed
> object (lamppost?) for burnouts and to the rider
> otherwise.
>
> On Sat, 2007-09-15 at 13:58 -0500, Marty Hewes
> wrote:
> > I think the distinction is, no human operated kill
> system could have
> > operated fast enough given the circumstances. I
> think you did as well as
> > possible. But I think a totally automatic system
> triggered by a combination
> > of inputs that should never coincide could have
> shut down power faster than
> > any human can react, within milliseconds.
> >
> > High motor current plus brake lights has got to
> mean trouble.
> >
> > Are the forks and wheel off the shelf items?
> >
> > Marty
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bill Dube" <[email protected]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
> <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 1:31 PM
> > Subject: [EVDL] Reaction time (was: Bill Dube
> nominated for Darwin Award.)
> >
> >
> > >I did manage to shut it down in about a second,
> but it goes quite a
> > > distance in a second.
> > >
> > > It was not difficult to shut down, but it takes
> a finite amount of
> > > time for a human to react. No matter what you
> choose as a shut-down,
> > > the driver must react in _some_ way first. This
> takes about 3/4
> > > second. Simply deciding to operate the brakes
> takes about 3/4 of a
> > > second. No disconnect system would have worked
> faster than what
> > > actually occurred.
> > >
> > > I _almost_ got it stopped. I needed about
> another 10 to 20 ft. That
> > > is where I personally stopped, you will notice.
> Had the bike been
> > > moving very fast, I would have gone a long way
> before I stopped. I
> > > came to rest about ten feet beyond the car. This
> is where the bike
> > > would have stopped. (Actually before that
> point.)
> > >
> > > The front forks are bent. The front wheel is
> bent. The pack has a
> > > dent from the wheel. The front cowling is
> cracked. Everything else is
> > > just fine. The front forks and wheel are very
> lightweight aluminum,
> > > so they crumpled right up with this very minor
> impact.
> > >
> > > Bill D.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For subscription options, see
> > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html



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Well, I certainly agree that the Darwin nomination was unwarranted. But
I totally disagree that we shouldn't be making suggestions about how to
make the bike safer. He can listen or not, at his option.

Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
> While safety devices are a neat idea I think the whole
> subject has gone a bit out of hand in telling Bill
> what he should do with with his bike that he built.
> Also nominating Bill for a simple mistake for a Darwin
> award is pretty cruel. A lapse in judgment maybe. But
> to display him a a genetic mistake about to correct
> itself is going a bit far. Especially as he was almost
> stopped and only bailed to avoid further injury.
> Rolling and and sliding across side walk at 20 mph
> verse slapping a van at 20 mph without safety gear
> could have been deadly. Sudden stops are harder on the
> body. I hope we all learn lessons from Bills mistake.
> 1) Always have a helmet on when performing any high
> powered demonstration on a bike.
> Every burnout on the Track Scott has a helmet on
> during the burnout.
>
>
> --- Hunter Cook <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I agree, a completely automatic system can clearly
> > react faster than a
> > human-controlled killswitch. However, "high motor
> > current plus brake
> > lights" is not automatic; the rider still has to be
> > hitting the brakes.
> > I kind of like the jetski-esque deadman switch,
> > attached to some fixed
> > object (lamppost?) for burnouts and to the rider
> > otherwise.
> >
> > On Sat, 2007-09-15 at 13:58 -0500, Marty Hewes
> > wrote:
> > > I think the distinction is, no human operated kill
> > system could have
> > > operated fast enough given the circumstances. I
> > think you did as well as
> > > possible. But I think a totally automatic system
> > triggered by a combination
> > > of inputs that should never coincide could have
> > shut down power faster than
> > > any human can react, within milliseconds.
> > >
> > > High motor current plus brake lights has got to
> > mean trouble.
> > >
> > > Are the forks and wheel off the shelf items?
> > >
> > > Marty
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Bill Dube" <[email protected]>
> > > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
> > <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 1:31 PM
> > > Subject: [EVDL] Reaction time (was: Bill Dube
> > nominated for Darwin Award.)
> > >
> > >
> > > >I did manage to shut it down in about a second,
> > but it goes quite a
> > > > distance in a second.
> > > >
> > > > It was not difficult to shut down, but it takes
> > a finite amount of
> > > > time for a human to react. No matter what you
> > choose as a shut-down,
> > > > the driver must react in _some_ way first. This
> > takes about 3/4
> > > > second. Simply deciding to operate the brakes
> > takes about 3/4 of a
> > > > second. No disconnect system would have worked
> > faster than what
> > > > actually occurred.
> > > >
> > > > I _almost_ got it stopped. I needed about
> > another 10 to 20 ft. That
> > > > is where I personally stopped, you will notice.
> > Had the bike been
> > > > moving very fast, I would have gone a long way
> > before I stopped. I
> > > > came to rest about ten feet beyond the car. This
> > is where the bike
> > > > would have stopped. (Actually before that
> > point.)
> > > >
> > > > The front forks are bent. The front wheel is
> > bent. The pack has a
> > > > dent from the wheel. The front cowling is
> > cracked. Everything else is
> > > > just fine. The front forks and wheel are very
> > lightweight aluminum,
> > > > so they crumpled right up with this very minor
> > impact.
> > > >
> > > > Bill D.
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > For subscription options, see
> > > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For subscription options, see
> > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos.
> http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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