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Discussion Starter #1
Just getting back from a car show here (Roanoke, VA) and seeing the inflated MPG's on plugin's is well, lying, maybe good PR. But a plug-in should be rated for the MPG(E) it does in electric mode for the first 40 miles or whatever and *then* the MPG in gas mode, hopefully www.fueleconomy.gov will get this right.

I saw 8" high letters on converted Prius Plug-ins claiming +100mpg which is just crap, the energy has to be coming from somewhere (supplimented on your electric bill). When I drove the same car I got about 20 miles electric range and *then* 50mpg (actual MPG).

Have a renewable energy day,
Mark
www.reevadiy.org
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Discussion Starter #2
It's one of the things that the X PRIZE worked very hard to popularize,
MPGe. Now it would've been nice if it was eG/100M (equivalent Gallons
Per 100 Miles or eL/100K), but it's at least something that looks
familiar enough to most Americans that it's adoptable... you wanna be
different, but not TOO different.

Anyhoo, question to those of you across the pond, in popular usage
what's the metric equivalent measure of MPGe in L/100km?

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Mark Hanson
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 3:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] Real plug-in MPG(E), marketing hoowey


Just getting back from a car show here (Roanoke, VA) and seeing the
inflated MPG's on plugin's is well, lying, maybe good PR. But a plug-in
should be rated for the MPG(E) it does in electric mode for the first 40
miles or whatever and *then* the MPG in gas mode, hopefully
www.fueleconomy.gov will get this right.

I saw 8" high letters on converted Prius Plug-ins claiming +100mpg which
is just crap, the energy has to be coming from somewhere (supplimented
on your electric bill). When I drove the same car I got about 20 miles
electric range and *then* 50mpg (actual MPG).

Have a renewable energy day,
Mark
www.reevadiy.org
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Discussion Starter #3
Hi Matt,

I will presume that you mean to convert from US measures to SI:
MPG (Miles / Gallon) =
1.609 km / 3.785 liter =
0.425 * km/l
To express in l/100km we need to divide by 100 and invert the result:
0.00425 * (100km/l) =>
235 l/100km.

Note the inversion, if you want to check how many l/100km a car gets
that has 38 MPG then you need to *divide* the 235 by 38 (6.2 l/100km
which is what my last 1990 European regular fuel 1.8i family car got).
If you are just interested in the km/l then you need to multiply
the MPG number by 0.425, so 38 MPG is 16.15 km/l
(all nrs are approximations, I rounded for ease of calculation)

Hope this helps,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Childress, Matthew
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 2:15 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Real plug-in MPG(E), marketing hoowey

It's one of the things that the X PRIZE worked very hard to popularize,
MPGe. Now it would've been nice if it was eG/100M (equivalent Gallons
Per 100 Miles or eL/100K), but it's at least something that looks
familiar enough to most Americans that it's adoptable... you wanna be
different, but not TOO different.

Anyhoo, question to those of you across the pond, in popular usage
what's the metric equivalent measure of MPGe in L/100km?

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Mark Hanson
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 3:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] Real plug-in MPG(E), marketing hoowey


Just getting back from a car show here (Roanoke, VA) and seeing the
inflated MPG's on plugin's is well, lying, maybe good PR. But a plug-in
should be rated for the MPG(E) it does in electric mode for the first 40
miles or whatever and *then* the MPG in gas mode, hopefully
www.fueleconomy.gov will get this right.

I saw 8" high letters on converted Prius Plug-ins claiming +100mpg which
is just crap, the energy has to be coming from somewhere (supplimented
on your electric bill). When I drove the same car I got about 20 miles
electric range and *then* 50mpg (actual MPG).

Have a renewable energy day,
Mark
www.reevadiy.org
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Discussion Starter #4
Several weeks ago I stopped and charged briefly at an RV park. Several
people stopped to talk to me about the car. One kept asking how many miles
per gallon it got, and puzzled, I just said it doesn't use gas. He said I
know, but equivalent. So I did a quick estimation in my head and said about
180. He was very happy with that, but he just wouldn't rest until he had
some equivalent mile/gallon, whereas I couldn't see why he was so fixated on
mpge when the whole idea is to get off gasoline.
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Real-plug-in-MPG-E-marketing-hoowey-tp3007844p3009585.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Discussion Starter #5
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPGE <- I've been looking at this for a while.

mpge does not sound very impressive when it all boils down to it, using the
DOE's conversion factors of .83 (oil refining) and .303
(generation/transmission of power) ...
perhaps thats the point ? how did they arrive at those figures ?
Using these the Tesla ends up at 69.5mpge

It is a really tough argument to grapple with when all people ever think of
is gasoline/mpg.

I ended up coming out with a figure of 27.5mpge for my truck which I
estimated will be between 385-450wh/mile
Whenever trying to sell the concept to someone, quoting that figure will
likely illicit the response "why bother ?"

am I missing something ?
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Discussion Starter #6
Hi Dave,

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPGE <- I've been looking at this for a while.
>
> mpge does not sound very impressive when it all boils down to it, using the
> DOE's conversion factors of .83 (oil refining) and .303
> (generation/transmission of power) ...
> perhaps thats the point ? how did they arrive at those figures ?
> Using these the Tesla ends up at 69.5mpge
>
> It is a really tough argument to grapple with when all people ever think of
> is gasoline/mpg.
>
> I ended up coming out with a figure of 27.5mpge for my truck which I
> estimated will be between 385-450wh/mile
> Whenever trying to sell the concept to someone, quoting that figure will
> likely illicit the response "why bother ?"
>
> am I missing something ?

I am doubtful that the well-to-wheels for oil is just 17%. It takes a long time to even find an oil field, then to do the drilling, including special materials that are energy intensive like drilling mud, extraction (is more than you think), long distance transportation (to get around pirates), building pipelines, storage, then the refining (which may take as much as 7.5kWh PER GALLON plus natural gas for heat, more storage, more transportation, more storage, and finally pumping into the tank. There is a LOT of embedded energy in gasoline.

http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/2010/09/oil-is-finite-electricity-is-infinite.html

Electricity on the other hand has far less embedded energy (trains are used for transport of coal). The huge majority of the loss is in generation, and this can be improved, or it can be eliminated by generating electricity from renewable sources. Because electricity *can* come from many renewable sources, I feel that we must transition to EV's as fast as possible, and move to the renewables as we can.

MPGe should be done as straight BTU conversion, because that is the part the vehicle is "responsible" for. If you put solar panels on your roof, then does your Tesla gets infinite MPGe? It certainly doesn't lose the 60-70% generation loss.

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/


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Discussion Starter #7
Neil: Some of the harder-to-calculate but significant embodied costs of
petro you left out are cleaning up the Gulf Goof-ups: Gulf Wars I & II,
Gulf of Mexico Oil BP Disaster, Gulf of Alaska (Prince William Sound),
Exxon Valdez. And these are just the MAJOR leaks & spills, as they
completely overshadow the minor ones. Then there's the increased Global
Weirding from release of sequestered CO2 and 90% of the oil being wasted
as heat. Leaky underground gas station tanks. Health care costs from
smog. I'm sure I'm leaving out things as well.

It's absolutely amazing, but these make electricity disasters (buried
coal miners, black lung, strip mining, CO2 released, three-mile-island,
Chernobyl, ruined salmon migrations from hydro dams) pale in comparison.
And I'm sure I'm leaving out some here as well. Why? Because they
largely go away when you're able to convert to wind & water turbines,
solar, stored solar - aka BioMass, like Miscanthus can be burned in coal
plants), etc. I take quite a bit of solace though that since they're
locally produced fuels, the same folks suffer the damage as are using
the products (kinda -- the poor universally suffer the effects more.
See Appalachia).

But there is no way to eliminate the petroleum disasters other than to
stop using it. It's why I like the prospects of using diesel for a
range extender cause I can run the OTHER Canadian Oil -- canola oil (aka
Rapeseed) in it.

Electricity, even from the current US grid is the best option now AND in
the future:


http://illinoisev.googlegroups.com/web/ComparingAlternativeFuelsCO2Cost.
jpg
(this is a fairly complex and boring graph, so I added in some
color and the Easter bunny -- why?
Because just like the Easter Bunny, all of the "best" fuels on
the left are imaginary: you can't
get them in the US unless you make them yourself)

These are things an EV driver needs to be very much aware of and work to
improve. Are we better than petrol? You bet. I live by the 4H Motto
though: To make the best better.

[email protected]

DRIVE ELECTRIC: No Leaks. No Drips. No Spills.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Neil Blanchard
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 11:31 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Real plug-in MPG(E), marketing hoowey

Hi Dave,

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPGE <- I've been looking at this for a
while.
>
> mpge does not sound very impressive when it all boils down to it,
using the
> DOE's conversion factors of .83 (oil refining) and .303
> (generation/transmission of power) ...
> perhaps thats the point ? how did they arrive at those figures ?
> Using these the Tesla ends up at 69.5mpge
>
> It is a really tough argument to grapple with when all people ever
think of
> is gasoline/mpg.
>
> I ended up coming out with a figure of 27.5mpge for my truck which I
> estimated will be between 385-450wh/mile
> Whenever trying to sell the concept to someone, quoting that figure
will
> likely illicit the response "why bother ?"
>
> am I missing something ?

I am doubtful that the well-to-wheels for oil is just 17%. It takes a
long time to even find an oil field, then to do the drilling, including
special materials that are energy intensive like drilling mud,
extraction (is more than you think), long distance transportation (to
get around pirates), building pipelines, storage, then the refining
(which may take as much as 7.5kWh PER GALLON plus natural gas for heat,
more storage, more transportation, more storage, and finally pumping
into the tank. There is a LOT of embedded energy in gasoline.

http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/2010/09/oil-is-finite-electricity-is-i
nfinite.html

Electricity on the other hand has far less embedded energy (trains are
used for transport of coal). The huge majority of the loss is in
generation, and this can be improved, or it can be eliminated by
generating electricity from renewable sources. Because electricity
*can* come from many renewable sources, I feel that we must transition
to EV's as fast as possible, and move to the renewables as we can.

MPGe should be done as straight BTU conversion, because that is the part
the vehicle is "responsible" for. If you put solar panels on your roof,
then does your Tesla gets infinite MPGe? It certainly doesn't lose the
60-70% generation loss.

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/


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Discussion Starter #8
Neil Blanchard wrote:

> Hi Dave,
>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPGE <- I've been looking at this for
>> a while.
>>
>> mpge does not sound very impressive when it all boils down to it,
>> using the
>> DOE's conversion factors of .83 (oil refining) and .303
>> (generation/transmission of power) ...
>> perhaps thats the point ? how did they arrive at those figures ?
>> Using these the Tesla ends up at 69.5mpge
>>
>> It is a really tough argument to grapple with when all people ever
>> think of
>> is gasoline/mpg.
>>
>> I ended up coming out with a figure of 27.5mpge for my truck which I
>> estimated will be between 385-450wh/mile
>> Whenever trying to sell the concept to someone, quoting that figure
>> will
>> likely illicit the response "why bother ?"
>>
>> am I missing something ?
>
> I am doubtful that the well-to-wheels for oil is just 17%. It takes
> a long time to even find an oil field, then to do the drilling,
> including special materials that are energy intensive like drilling
> mud, extraction (is more than you think), long distance
> transportation (to get around pirates), building pipelines, storage,
> then the refining (which may take as much as 7.5kWh PER GALLON plus
> natural gas for heat, more storage, more transportation, more
> storage, and finally pumping into the tank. There is a LOT of
> embedded energy in gasoline.
>
> http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/2010/09/oil-is-finite-electricity-is-infinite.html
>
> Electricity on the other hand has far less embedded energy (trains
> are used for transport of coal). The huge majority of the loss is
> in generation, and this can be improved, or it can be eliminated by
> generating electricity from renewable sources. Because electricity
> *can* come from many renewable sources, I feel that we must
> transition to EV's as fast as possible, and move to the renewables
> as we can.
>
> MPGe should be done as straight BTU conversion, because that is the
> part the vehicle is "responsible" for. If you put solar panels on
> your roof, then does your Tesla gets infinite MPGe? It certainly
> doesn't lose the 60-70% generation loss.
>
> Sincerely, Neil
> http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/
>
>

Yes indeedy... You can go on ad infinitum on both sides of the
argument. So, I think the best answer is to do as Neil suggests and
do a straight energy-based comparison. In which case the formula for
US gallons is...

MPGE = (1/Wh per mile) X 33705 hwere 33705 is the energy content
(in Wh) in a US gallon of petrol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equivalent
)

... which for Dave's vehicle (at an average, say, 400Wh/mi) = 85 or so
MPGe. A lot better!

This - in my view - firmly looks on the conservative side of things as
I think the full, real cost of supplying electricity is far less than
supplying oil, as covered by Matt's post. But you pays your money and
takes you choice, as they say.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



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