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Discussion Starter #1
I read a little of the recent discussion on the Leaf and the down play of it. I'm an EV guy and have been doing this for a long time. I've owned 8 EV's and have 2 right now. So, I would consider myself informed about EVs, range limitation, servicability, etc. Here is my take:

1) I am really excited to see a mainstream EV that Joe Sixpack can go to a dealer and buy. And, if it breaks, he has a way to get it serviced. And, it comes with a warranty so he isn't worried if it is a dud. This is the biggest issue with EVs currently available. Excluding the Tesla, which is available, and can be serviced somehow. All other EVs out there today are either home made (one off designs), limited production from a conversion company (with very limited support, if any), old OEM vehicles with absolutely no support (S-10, Ranger, etc. - basically anything built in the late 90's or early part of the 00's). The trouble with all these is:
When they need service - good luck! You are on your own. I am
an engineer, and I can fix my own EV to an extent. But, there are
some things that even I can't do. Some EV's are essentially scrap
if they break because there is no reasonable way to repair them,
short of re-engineering the whole car. This is a major reason why
EV's have got a bad rap.
So, I'm excited purely because they are available and sustainable.

2) I have a major issue with all range claims on any EV's, and I have had that issue for years. Anyone with EV experience knows what I am talking about. People seem to state range on ideal conditions, and in your real world, you are lucky to get 1/2 what they tell you. Are they lying? Not really. They are truthful assuming you drive it on a flat test track at 25 MPH constant speed on an almost new batt pack under all ideal conditions. Pretty much all automotive advertizing is this way. Do you really get 31 MPG if that is what the label says? NO. Not in my real world. So, set your expectations straight. Understand what the technology can do. If it works for you, and you want the car, get it. Otherwise get something different. There is always the Volt, which eliminates the range anxiety issue and still runs on battery only for UP TO 40 miles. I never said 40 miles. It may be 20 miles some days.

3) More on range. I find all these statistics very annoying. My household has a 2005 car that we got new in late 05. It now has about 55,000 miles. Tht works out to 965 miles / month. And I consider us people that don't drive much. Even on the low side, excluding long trips, we need at least 900 miles / month, year round, hot cold, rain, sleet, and snow. So, you take the 900 and divide by 30. So, then we need 30 miles on average. So, why not get some old conversion with 16-18 golf cart batteries and we'd be set? First of all. Been there, done that, have two of them sitting in the garage / driveway. One of those old golf cart battery driven conversions with 16-18 batteries is good for a reliable 20-25 miles. That's it. And, in cold weather, real cold weather, make that 18-20 miles. Never going to make it 30 miles if you want the batteries to last. I know becuse my two really old conversions have 14,500 and 25,000 EV miles respectively.
That's not a lot of EV miles for cars that are this old. And they are more than 15 years old, one is 30 years old. 25,000 miles in 30 years. Even the one I drove regularly, I had trouble putting more than 4000-5000 miles / year. And, I was really trying to drive it whenever I could. Opportunity charging and everything. So, working hard to drive an EV in the real world, I can get 5000 miles per year. Most people need at least 10,000 miles / year. Others need 15,000 plus. Based on all that, using lead acid batts, I would need at least 35 batteries. Then, I need a bigger vehicle. That is less efficient and that 35 goes to 40. So, 40 golf cart batteries to make an EV that is actually useful, assuming golf cart batteries. Can anyone say Red Beastie? Anything less and I'm stuck back in the 4000 - 5000 miles per year. So, you say Li Ion. I say, you need a big old bag of money. You need the batts. You need a balancing system. You need a real
high end charger. You probably need temperature controlled environment. You need a whole lot of stuff. Don't have that stuff and it won't last. I don't care how careful you think you are or how bulletproof you think your system is. Things happen. They will happen and that is a lot of money to lose. If you have all that money, buy a leaf or Volt. At least you get a warranty and servicability.

I'm glad to see these EVs and have them available. I just hope everyone straightens out their expectations so they don't get a bad wrap again. Stop trying to sell your old 16 golf cart battery conversion with a fictional 40 mile range. Tell the truth. That goes for the auto makers too. Anyone who has misled someone about EV performance or range is just as guilty as the next guy. It is time for everyone to tell the truth. Then, people will actually buy EVs. When they can trust the spec sheet.

Steve






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Registered
Joined
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Discussion Starter #2
Steve,
Really enjoyed your discussion of range in real world
conditions. My EV experience is fairly close to what you have outlined
here today.

My Prius just turned over 50,000 miles and it is 52 months old. That
works out to about 32 miles a day if I did the math correctly.

I am also on my third EV right now.
http://www.evalbum.com/3175

The Red Beastie was my inspiration for building the Toyota pickup. As
good as the truck is, it still fell short of my expectations and right
now I am counting the days until I get the new Nissan Leaf. The Leaf
may fall short of the 100 mile range number and thats OK with me. I
also think that it will have better range than my Yoyo truck, so any
improvement will make my life easier to deal with and not have OPEC
in my life every day.

If the range turns out to be ONLY 75 miles instead of 100 miles, I
will still have more than double the 32 miles a day I have been
averaging the last 4 years. That is enough safety factor for me to
feel good about the car.

Now the next question is how do we convince everyone else to drive an
EV ? Simple, we need solar powered charge stations all over town that
everyone can use whenever they need a "fill-up".

Cheers,
KJD


Steve Powers wrote:

> I read a little of the recent discussion on the Leaf and the down
> play of it. I'm an EV guy and have been doing this for a long
> time. I've owned 8 EV's and have 2 right now. So, I would consider
> myself informed about EVs, range limitation, servicability, etc.
> Here is my take:
>
> 1) I am really excited to see a mainstream EV that Joe Sixpack can
> go to a dealer and buy. And, if it breaks, he has a way to get it
> serviced. And, it comes with a warranty so he isn't worried if it
> is a dud. This is the biggest issue with EVs currently available.
> Excluding the Tesla, which is available, and can be serviced
> somehow. All other EVs out there today are either home made (one
> off designs), limited production from a conversion company (with
> very limited support, if any), old OEM vehicles with absolutely no
> support (S-10, Ranger, etc. - basically anything built in the late
> 90's or early part of the 00's). The trouble with all these is:
> When they need service - good luck! You are on your own. I am
> an engineer, and I can fix my own EV to an extent. But, there are
> some things that even I can't do. Some EV's are essentially scrap
> if they break because there is no reasonable way to repair them,
> short of re-engineering the whole car. This is a major reason why
> EV's have got a bad rap.
> So, I'm excited purely because they are available and sustainable.
>
> 2) I have a major issue with all range claims on any EV's, and I
> have had that issue for years. Anyone with EV experience knows what
> I am talking about. People seem to state range on ideal conditions,
> and in your real world, you are lucky to get 1/2 what they tell
> you. Are they lying? Not really. They are truthful assuming you
> drive it on a flat test track at 25 MPH constant speed on an almost
> new batt pack under all ideal conditions. Pretty much all
> automotive advertizing is this way. Do you really get 31 MPG if
> that is what the label says? NO. Not in my real world. So, set
> your expectations straight. Understand what the technology can do.
> If it works for you, and you want the car, get it. Otherwise get
> something different. There is always the Volt, which eliminates the
> range anxiety issue and still runs on battery only for UP TO 40
> miles. I never said 40 miles. It may be 20 miles some days.
>
> 3) More on range. I find all these statistics very annoying. My
> household has a 2005 car that we got new in late 05. It now has
> about 55,000 miles. Tht works out to 965 miles / month. And I
> consider us people that don't drive much. Even on the low side,
> excluding long trips, we need at least 900 miles / month, year
> round, hot cold, rain, sleet, and snow. So, you take the 900 and
> divide by 30. So, then we need 30 miles on average. So, why not
> get some old conversion with 16-18 golf cart batteries and we'd be
> set? First of all. Been there, done that, have two of them sitting
> in the garage / driveway. One of those old golf cart battery driven
> conversions with 16-18 batteries is good for a reliable 20-25
> miles. That's it. And, in cold weather, real cold weather, make
> that 18-20 miles. Never going to make it 30 miles if you want the
> batteries to last. I know becuse my two really old conversions have
> 14,500 and 25,000 EV miles respectively.
> That's not a lot of EV miles for cars that are this old. And they
> are more than 15 years old, one is 30 years old. 25,000 miles in 30
> years. Even the one I drove regularly, I had trouble putting more
> than 4000-5000 miles / year. And, I was really trying to drive it
> whenever I could. Opportunity charging and everything. So, working
> hard to drive an EV in the real world, I can get 5000 miles per
> year. Most people need at least 10,000 miles / year. Others need
> 15,000 plus. Based on all that, using lead acid batts, I would need
> at least 35 batteries. Then, I need a bigger vehicle. That is less
> efficient and that 35 goes to 40. So, 40 golf cart batteries to
> make an EV that is actually useful, assuming golf cart batteries.
> Can anyone say Red Beastie? Anything less and I'm stuck back in the
> 4000 - 5000 miles per year. So, you say Li Ion. I say, you need a
> big old bag of money. You need the batts. You need a balancing
> system. You need a real
> high end charger. You probably need temperature controlled
> environment. You need a whole lot of stuff. Don't have that stuff
> and it won't last. I don't care how careful you think you are or
> how bulletproof you think your system is. Things happen. They will
> happen and that is a lot of money to lose. If you have all that
> money, buy a leaf or Volt. At least you get a warranty and
> servicability.
>
> I'm glad to see these EVs and have them available. I just hope
> everyone straightens out their expectations so they don't get a bad
> wrap again. Stop trying to sell your old 16 golf cart battery
> conversion with a fictional 40 mile range. Tell the truth. That
> goes for the auto makers too. Anyone who has misled someone about
> EV performance or range is just as guilty as the next guy. It is
> time for everyone to tell the truth. Then, people will actually buy
> EVs. When they can trust the spec sheet.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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Joined
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Hi Steve,

If you can charge at work then it is no issue at all to do
10,000 miles a year. And get good service from lead-acids.
Sam Rogers had a 20 mile each way commute on I-40 in LA,
so most time he ran pedal to the metal 72 MPH in his
US Electricar S10, charged at work and back home.
In just over a year he put 12,000 miles on his pack,
last I heard.
BTW, this is with a pack of 26 batteries (34kWh nom)
You can look up his posts on the Yahoo US Electricar
group, the archive is open to everyone.
I agree with the maintenance issue, it was due to
essentially two individuals on the group that did most
of the reverse engineering of these vehicles that made
many more vehicles come out of the woodwork, because
finally there was a way to fix them and get them running
and even have some old and annoying dropout problems
finally solved plus a bunch of other quality issues
that the original factory guys had no time to figure out.

It increased the value of each of the US Electricars
manifold and the largest part of the US Electricars that
were ever produced are now in hands of owners that are
connected via this group.

Another EV that had a comparable revival was I think the
Ford Ranger EV, where EV Bones made a small business out
of revitalising them and bringing them back on the road
with warranty.
After they services the larger part of the still existing
Rangers they stopped accepting them as they shifted their
focus to another business.
Indeed it is good to have EVs become mainstream and get
some solid manufacturer names and service organisations
where the non-technical owners can rely on.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Steve Powers
Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 7:00 PM
To: ev
Subject: [EVDL] recent discussion, leaf, range, Li Ion,conversion
servicability

I read a little of the recent discussion on the Leaf and the down play
of it. I'm an EV guy and have been doing this for a long time. I've
owned 8 EV's and have 2 right now. So, I would consider myself informed
about EVs, range limitation, servicability, etc. Here is my take:

1) I am really excited to see a mainstream EV that Joe Sixpack can go to
a dealer and buy. And, if it breaks, he has a way to get it serviced.
And, it comes with a warranty so he isn't worried if it is a dud. This
is the biggest issue with EVs currently available. Excluding the Tesla,
which is available, and can be serviced somehow. All other EVs out
there today are either home made (one off designs), limited production
from a conversion company (with very limited support, if any), old OEM
vehicles with absolutely no support (S-10, Ranger, etc. - basically
anything built in the late 90's or early part of the 00's). The trouble
with all these is:
When they need service - good luck! You are on your own. I am
an engineer, and I can fix my own EV to an extent. But, there are
some things that even I can't do. Some EV's are essentially scrap
if they break because there is no reasonable way to repair them,
short of re-engineering the whole car. This is a major reason why
EV's have got a bad rap.
So, I'm excited purely because they are available and sustainable.

2) I have a major issue with all range claims on any EV's, and I have
had that issue for years. Anyone with EV experience knows what I am
talking about. People seem to state range on ideal conditions, and in
your real world, you are lucky to get 1/2 what they tell you. Are they
lying? Not really. They are truthful assuming you drive it on a flat
test track at 25 MPH constant speed on an almost new batt pack under all
ideal conditions. Pretty much all automotive advertizing is this way.
Do you really get 31 MPG if that is what the label says? NO. Not in my
real world. So, set your expectations straight. Understand what the
technology can do. If it works for you, and you want the car, get it.
Otherwise get something different. There is always the Volt, which
eliminates the range anxiety issue and still runs on battery only for UP
TO 40 miles. I never said 40 miles. It may be 20 miles some days.

3) More on range. I find all these statistics very annoying. My
household has a 2005 car that we got new in late 05. It now has about
55,000 miles. Tht works out to 965 miles / month. And I consider us
people that don't drive much. Even on the low side, excluding long
trips, we need at least 900 miles / month, year round, hot cold, rain,
sleet, and snow. So, you take the 900 and divide by 30. So, then we
need 30 miles on average. So, why not get some old conversion with
16-18 golf cart batteries and we'd be set? First of all. Been there,
done that, have two of them sitting in the garage / driveway. One of
those old golf cart battery driven conversions with 16-18 batteries is
good for a reliable 20-25 miles. That's it. And, in cold weather, real
cold weather, make that 18-20 miles. Never going to make it 30 miles if
you want the batteries to last. I know becuse my two really old
conversions have 14,500 and 25,000 EV miles respectively.
That's not a lot of EV miles for cars that are this old. And they are
more than 15 years old, one is 30 years old. 25,000 miles in 30 years.
Even the one I drove regularly, I had trouble putting more than
4000-5000 miles / year. And, I was really trying to drive it whenever I
could. Opportunity charging and everything. So, working hard to drive
an EV in the real world, I can get 5000 miles per year. Most people
need at least 10,000 miles / year. Others need 15,000 plus. Based on
all that, using lead acid batts, I would need at least 35 batteries.
Then, I need a bigger vehicle. That is less efficient and that 35 goes
to 40. So, 40 golf cart batteries to make an EV that is actually
useful, assuming golf cart batteries. Can anyone say Red Beastie?
Anything less and I'm stuck back in the 4000 - 5000 miles per year. So,
you say Li Ion. I say, you need a big old bag of money. You need the
batts. You need a balancing system. You need a real high end charger.
You probably need temperature controlled environment. You need a whole
lot of stuff. Don't have that stuff and it won't last. I don't care
how careful you think you are or how bulletproof you think your system
is. Things happen. They will happen and that is a lot of money to
lose. If you have all that money, buy a leaf or Volt. At least you get
a warranty and servicability.

I'm glad to see these EVs and have them available. I just hope everyone
straightens out their expectations so they don't get a bad wrap again.
Stop trying to sell your old 16 golf cart battery conversion with a
fictional 40 mile range. Tell the truth. That goes for the auto makers
too. Anyone who has misled someone about EV performance or range is
just as guilty as the next guy. It is time for everyone to tell the
truth. Then, people will actually buy EVs. When they can trust the
spec sheet.

Steve






_______________________________________________
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| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
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| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Kyle,
Sorry, but if you,( like most of us,) do most of your driving only five
days per week, that is about 40 miles each weekday at 4.5 weeks per month,
(or 23 workdays per month) Even so, that is only a little more than your
conservative estimate!
If you are in a very sunny location the solar "Carports" for free
recharging are cool ,(And minimize heat gain in the interior in the
summertime too.) On the other hand to re-charge for 100 electric miles costs
about $1 on the grid even at a fast-charge rate, but refueling with 100
miles worth of Gasoline is about $30 and rising ! (My time is worth 15 extra
minutes for fast charging versus liquid fueling and is like making a wage of
about $120 per hour for my extra 15 minutes at the "Charging Station, just
"Cooling Out." And perhaps talking to other EVers. And, HECK that would be
$160 in Pre-tax Dollars !
Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles (Director) E.V.T.I. inc.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM* (Adviser) *EVTI-EVA Education Chapte*r
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Kyle Dansie <[email protected]>wrote:

> Steve,
> Really enjoyed your discussion of range in real world
> conditions. My EV experience is fairly close to what you have outlined
> here today.
>
> My Prius just turned over 50,000 miles and it is 52 months old. That
> works out to about 32 miles a day if I did the math correctly.
>
> I am also on my third EV right now.
> http://www.evalbum.com/3175
>
> The Red Beastie was my inspiration for building the Toyota pickup. As
> good as the truck is, it still fell short of my expectations and right
> now I am counting the days until I get the new Nissan Leaf. The Leaf
> may fall short of the 100 mile range number and thats OK with me. I
> also think that it will have better range than my Yoyo truck, so any
> improvement will make my life easier to deal with and not have OPEC
> in my life every day.
>
> If the range turns out to be ONLY 75 miles instead of 100 miles, I
> will still have more than double the 32 miles a day I have been
> averaging the last 4 years. That is enough safety factor for me to
> feel good about the car.
>
> Now the next question is how do we convince everyone else to drive an
> EV ? Simple, we need solar powered charge stations all over town that
> everyone can use whenever they need a "fill-up".
>
> Cheers,
> KJD
>
>
> On Sep 25, 2010, at 7:29 AM, Steve Powers wrote:
>
> > I read a little of the recent discussion on the Leaf and the down
> > play of it. I'm an EV guy and have been doing this for a long
> > time. I've owned 8 EV's and have 2 right now. So, I would consider
> > myself informed about EVs, range limitation, servicability, etc.
> > Here is my take:
> >
> > 1) I am really excited to see a mainstream EV that Joe Sixpack can
> > go to a dealer and buy. And, if it breaks, he has a way to get it
> > serviced. And, it comes with a warranty so he isn't worried if it
> > is a dud. This is the biggest issue with EVs currently available.
> > Excluding the Tesla, which is available, and can be serviced
> > somehow. All other EVs out there today are either home made (one
> > off designs), limited production from a conversion company (with
> > very limited support, if any), old OEM vehicles with absolutely no
> > support (S-10, Ranger, etc. - basically anything built in the late
> > 90's or early part of the 00's). The trouble with all these is:
> > When they need service - good luck! You are on your own. I am
> > an engineer, and I can fix my own EV to an extent. But, there are
> > some things that even I can't do. Some EV's are essentially scrap
> > if they break because there is no reasonable way to repair them,
> > short of re-engineering the whole car. This is a major reason why
> > EV's have got a bad rap.
> > So, I'm excited purely because they are available and sustainable.
> >
> > 2) I have a major issue with all range claims on any EV's, and I
> > have had that issue for years. Anyone with EV experience knows what
> > I am talking about. People seem to state range on ideal conditions,
> > and in your real world, you are lucky to get 1/2 what they tell
> > you. Are they lying? Not really. They are truthful assuming you
> > drive it on a flat test track at 25 MPH constant speed on an almost
> > new batt pack under all ideal conditions. Pretty much all
> > automotive advertizing is this way. Do you really get 31 MPG if
> > that is what the label says? NO. Not in my real world. So, set
> > your expectations straight. Understand what the technology can do.
> > If it works for you, and you want the car, get it. Otherwise get
> > something different. There is always the Volt, which eliminates the
> > range anxiety issue and still runs on battery only for UP TO 40
> > miles. I never said 40 miles. It may be 20 miles some days.
> >
> > 3) More on range. I find all these statistics very annoying. My
> > household has a 2005 car that we got new in late 05. It now has
> > about 55,000 miles. Tht works out to 965 miles / month. And I
> > consider us people that don't drive much. Even on the low side,
> > excluding long trips, we need at least 900 miles / month, year
> > round, hot cold, rain, sleet, and snow. So, you take the 900 and
> > divide by 30. So, then we need 30 miles on average. So, why not
> > get some old conversion with 16-18 golf cart batteries and we'd be
> > set? First of all. Been there, done that, have two of them sitting
> > in the garage / driveway. One of those old golf cart battery driven
> > conversions with 16-18 batteries is good for a reliable 20-25
> > miles. That's it. And, in cold weather, real cold weather, make
> > that 18-20 miles. Never going to make it 30 miles if you want the
> > batteries to last. I know becuse my two really old conversions have
> > 14,500 and 25,000 EV miles respectively.
> > That's not a lot of EV miles for cars that are this old. And they
> > are more than 15 years old, one is 30 years old. 25,000 miles in 30
> > years. Even the one I drove regularly, I had trouble putting more
> > than 4000-5000 miles / year. And, I was really trying to drive it
> > whenever I could. Opportunity charging and everything. So, working
> > hard to drive an EV in the real world, I can get 5000 miles per
> > year. Most people need at least 10,000 miles / year. Others need
> > 15,000 plus. Based on all that, using lead acid batts, I would need
> > at least 35 batteries. Then, I need a bigger vehicle. That is less
> > efficient and that 35 goes to 40. So, 40 golf cart batteries to
> > make an EV that is actually useful, assuming golf cart batteries.
> > Can anyone say Red Beastie? Anything less and I'm stuck back in the
> > 4000 - 5000 miles per year. So, you say Li Ion. I say, you need a
> > big old bag of money. You need the batts. You need a balancing
> > system. You need a real
> > high end charger. You probably need temperature controlled
> > environment. You need a whole lot of stuff. Don't have that stuff
> > and it won't last. I don't care how careful you think you are or
> > how bulletproof you think your system is. Things happen. They will
> > happen and that is a lot of money to lose. If you have all that
> > money, buy a leaf or Volt. At least you get a warranty and
> > servicability.
> >
> > I'm glad to see these EVs and have them available. I just hope
> > everyone straightens out their expectations so they don't get a bad
> > wrap again. Stop trying to sell your old 16 golf cart battery
> > conversion with a fictional 40 mile range. Tell the truth. That
> > goes for the auto makers too. Anyone who has misled someone about
> > EV performance or range is just as guilty as the next guy. It is
> > time for everyone to tell the truth. Then, people will actually buy
> > EVs. When they can trust the spec sheet.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
>
It=92s estimated that the existing U.S. electrical grid has sufficient
capacity
to fully fuel three-quarters of the nation=92s 217 million passenger
vehicles.
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Discussion Starter #5
Hello Cor,
The "Service Issue" has been a major concern of mine, also, for a
number of years . We may soon be approaching the start to the cure.
As some of you know I work every day in my fight to Start-up an EV
Technician Technical Institute, to train: Auto Mechanics (Experienced,or
recent tech school grads,) who are not affiliated with an Auto Dealer
(Because they have "Factory Training") and Hobbyists with a strong desire to
learn and use the knowledge to help others, in our Generic (Meaning here:
ALL MAKES) EV Tech/Mechanic Training Program. It will be a 160 hour school
and takes about a Month, Everyone I talk to about it says they know someone
who would love to go and then open their on business in EV Service, Repair,
and on slow days ,Conversions to order.
To learn more read my web site or call me any afternoon, seven days a
week.(I'll climb down and relinquish this Soapbox now.)
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM *(Adviser)* EVTI-EVA Education Chapter*
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
Initial demand (computed by extrapolating the reservations for GM Volt and
Nissan Leaf,) shall exceed 200,000 vehicles in 2010 and 2011. However only
50,000 vehicles will be marketed, so a LARGE demand for Nice Newer
Conversions is predicted! .
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Cor van de Water <[email protected]>wrote:

> Hi Steve,
>
> If you can charge at work then it is no issue at all to do
> 10,000 miles a year. And get good service from lead-acids.
> Sam Rogers had a 20 mile each way commute on I-40 in LA,
> so most time he ran pedal to the metal 72 MPH in his
> US Electricar S10, charged at work and back home.
> In just over a year he put 12,000 miles on his pack,
> last I heard.
> BTW, this is with a pack of 26 batteries (34kWh nom)
> You can look up his posts on the Yahoo US Electricar
> group, the archive is open to everyone.
> I agree with the maintenance issue, it was due to
> essentially two individuals on the group that did most
> of the reverse engineering of these vehicles that made
> many more vehicles come out of the woodwork, because
> finally there was a way to fix them and get them running
> and even have some old and annoying dropout problems
> finally solved plus a bunch of other quality issues
> that the original factory guys had no time to figure out.
>
> It increased the value of each of the US Electricars
> manifold and the largest part of the US Electricars that
> were ever produced are now in hands of owners that are
> connected via this group.
>
> Another EV that had a comparable revival was I think the
> Ford Ranger EV, where EV Bones made a small business out
> of revitalizing them and bringing them back on the road
> with warranty.
> After they services the larger part of the still existing
> Rangers they stopped accepting them as they shifted their
> focus to another business.
> Indeed it is good to have EVs become mainstream and get
> some solid manufacturer names and service organizations
> where the non-technical owners can rely on.
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Steve Powers
> Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 7:00 PM
> To: ev
> Subject: [EVDL] recent discussion, leaf, range, Li Ion,conversion
> servicability
>
> I read a little of the recent discussion on the Leaf and the down play
> of it. I'm an EV guy and have been doing this for a long time. I've
> owned 8 EV's and have 2 right now. So, I would consider myself informed
> about EVs, range limitation, servicability, etc. Here is my take:
>
> 1) I am really excited to see a mainstream EV that Joe Sixpack can go to
> a dealer and buy. And, if it breaks, he has a way to get it serviced.
> And, it comes with a warranty so he isn't worried if it is a dud. This
> is the biggest issue with EVs currently available. Excluding the Tesla,
> which is available, and can be serviced somehow. All other EVs out
> there today are either home made (one off designs), limited production
> from a conversion company (with very limited support, if any), old OEM
> vehicles with absolutely no support (S-10, Ranger, etc. - basically
> anything built in the late 90's or early part of the 00's). The trouble
> with all these is:
> When they need service - good luck! You are on your own. I am
> an engineer, and I can fix my own EV to an extent. But, there are
> some things that even I can't do. Some EV's are essentially scrap
> if they break because there is no reasonable way to repair them,
> short of re-engineering the whole car. This is a major reason why
> EV's have got a bad rap.
> So, I'm excited purely because they are available and sustainable.
>
> 2) I have a major issue with all range claims on any EV's, and I have
> had that issue for years. Anyone with EV experience knows what I am
> talking about. People seem to state range on ideal conditions, and in
> your real world, you are lucky to get 1/2 what they tell you. Are they
> lying? Not really. They are truthful assuming you drive it on a flat
> test track at 25 MPH constant speed on an almost new batt pack under all
> ideal conditions. Pretty much all automotive advertising is this way.
> Do you really get 31 MPG if that is what the label says? NO. Not in my
> real world. So, set your expectations straight. Understand what the
> technology can do. If it works for you, and you want the car, get it.
> Otherwise get something different. There is always the Volt, which
> eliminates the range anxiety issue and still runs on battery only for UP
> TO 40 miles. I never said 40 miles. It may be 20 miles some days.
>
> 3) More on range. I find all these statistics very annoying. My
> household has a 2005 car that we got new in late 05. It now has about
> 55,000 miles. Tht works out to 965 miles / month. And I consider us
> people that don't drive much. Even on the low side, excluding long
> trips, we need at least 900 miles / month, year round, hot cold, rain,
> sleet, and snow. So, you take the 900 and divide by 30. So, then we
> need 30 miles on average. So, why not get some old conversion with
> 16-18 golf cart batteries and we'd be set? First of all. Been there,
> done that, have two of them sitting in the garage / driveway. One of
> those old golf cart battery driven conversions with 16-18 batteries is
> good for a reliable 20-25 miles. That's it. And, in cold weather, real
> cold weather, make that 18-20 miles. Never going to make it 30 miles if
> you want the batteries to last. I know becuse my two really old
> conversions have 14,500 and 25,000 EV miles respectively.
> That's not a lot of EV miles for cars that are this old. And they are
> more than 15 years old, one is 30 years old. 25,000 miles in 30 years.
> Even the one I drove regularly, I had trouble putting more than
> 4000-5000 miles / year. And, I was really trying to drive it whenever I
> could. Opportunity charging and everything. So, working hard to drive
> an EV in the real world, I can get 5000 miles per year. Most people
> need at least 10,000 miles / year. Others need 15,000 plus. Based on
> all that, using lead acid batts, I would need at least 35 batteries.
> Then, I need a bigger vehicle. That is less efficient and that 35 goes
> to 40. So, 40 golf cart batteries to make an EV that is actually
> useful, assuming golf cart batteries. Can anyone say Red Beastie?
> Anything less and I'm stuck back in the 4000 - 5000 miles per year. So,
> you say Li Ion. I say, you need a big old bag of money. You need the
> batts. You need a balancing system. You need a real high end charger.
> You probably need temperature controlled environment. You need a whole
> lot of stuff. Don't have that stuff and it won't last. I don't care
> how careful you think you are or how bulletproof you think your system
> is. Things happen. They will happen and that is a lot of money to
> lose. If you have all that money, buy a leaf or Volt. At least you get
> a warranty and *serviceability*.
>
> I'm glad to see these EVs and have them available. I just hope everyone
> straightens out their expectations so they don't get a bad wrap again.
> Stop trying to sell your old 16 golf cart battery conversion with a
> fictional 40 mile range. Tell the truth. That goes for the auto makers
> too. Anyone who has misled someone about EV performance or range is
> just as guilty as the next guy. It is time for everyone to tell the
> truth. Then, people will actually buy EVs. When they can trust the
> spec sheet.
>
> Steve
>
> _______________________________________________________
>
>


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Discussion Starter #6
"On the other hand to re-charge for 100 electric miles costs about $1 on the
grid"
If you use 200Wh/mile in a small electric car like mine, you use 20kWh in
100 miles. Your electric costs 5 cents per kWh? Maybe more like $2 if you
charge at night? Gas is about $2.89/gal here, and my Swift was rated at 32
miles/gal before conversion, so about $9 worth of gas for 100 miles.
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/recent-discussion-leaf-range-Li-Ion-conversion-servicability-tp2713482p2714044.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Discussion Starter #7
Oh,Heck, you caught me exaggerating this time. I used cost of electricity
numbers for a Tesla I read somewhere. but the $30 is what I pay to drive my
old SUV to Ocala (About 85 miles and I refill there at $2.99 / gallon
current pricing to return home) I must plea temporary insanity I have been
reading too much ad copy.
Regards,
Dennis Miles

tomw <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> "On the other hand to re-charge for 100 electric miles costs about $1 on
> the
> grid"
> If you use 200Wh/mile in a small electric car like mine, you use 20kWh in
> 100 miles. Your electric costs 5 cents per kWh? Maybe more like $2 if you
> charge at night? Gas is about $2.89/gal here, and my Swift was rated at 32
> miles/gal before conversion, so about $9 worth of gas for 100 miles.
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/recent-discussion-leaf-range-Li-Ion-conversion-servicability-tp2713482p2714044.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
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Discussion Starter #8
Tom,

If you have TOU (Time Of Use) metering then it may very well
be that your nightly tariff is between 5 and 6 cents/kWh.
That is what I got from PG&E in California.
Soooo - it was not a big stretch to say that a recharge
costs $1.
On the other hand, if you charge in the summer weekday
afternoon then you are paying through your nose, but that
is the whole point of TOU.
The summer afternoon is when you get the most (money) back
if you have a solar electric installation (for example)!

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of tomw
Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2010 8:54 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] recent discussion, leaf, range, Li Ion, conversion
servicability


"On the other hand to re-charge for 100 electric miles costs about $1 on
the grid"
If you use 200Wh/mile in a small electric car like mine, you use 20kWh
in 100 miles. Your electric costs 5 cents per kWh? Maybe more like $2 if
you charge at night? Gas is about $2.89/gal here, and my Swift was
rated at 32 miles/gal before conversion, so about $9 worth of gas for
100 miles.
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/recent-disc
ussion-leaf-range-Li-Ion-conversion-servicability-tp2713482p2714044.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

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Discussion Starter #9
"The summer afternoon is when you get the most (money) back if you have a
solar electric installation (for example)!"
Not in NV Cor, nor most states for that matter. Any excess power my 5.6kW
panels produce are a gift to NV Energy to sell to the people of NV.
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/recent-discussion-leaf-range-Li-Ion-conversion-servicability-tp2713482p2714867.html
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Discussion Starter #10
I know my attitude may be showing but I would be storing energy in my own
battery pack before I "Donated" it to a "Blood Sucking" Utility that wanted
it for free and charged others for it apparently. The link to this list is
that a storage bank saved from used and lowered capacity EV batteries works
when weight is of no concern such as shelved in a shed...
Regards, Dennis Miles
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tomw <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> "The summer afternoon is when you get the most (money) back if you have a
> solar electric installation (for example)!"
> Not in NV Cor, nor most states for that matter. Any excess power my 5.6kW
> panels produce are a gift to NV Energy to sell to the people of NV.
> --
>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
==============================================================
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
Initial demand (computed by extrapolating the reservations for GM Volt and
Nissan Leaf,) shall exceed 200,000 vehicles in 2010 and 2011. However only
50,000 vehicles will be marketed, so a LARGE demand for Nice Newer
Conversions is predicted!
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Discussion Starter #11
Kyle (and All),
Yes, I'm replying to a week old post, but there has been so much, um,
stuff to weed through lately...
I looked at your EV Album page per your link below and was curious
about the Trojan warranty comment. Although I haven't bought new
Trojan floodies for awhile, I never had a problem with them, and when
a fellow EV'er had a problem with one, the supplier exchanged it, no
questions asked. Also, I notice under the Batteries section that you
used T-125's. With a heavy on-road vehicle the T-145's handle the high
currents better because of their thicker plates, and have less voltage
sag. You mention them not meeting their Ah rating. What current did
you use to test them, was it at 77 degrees, and after some break-in
cycles? Your comment under Range makes me think you need battery
insulation!
Suck Amps,
BB


> Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 09:50:02 -0600
> From: Kyle Dansie
>
> Steve,
> Really enjoyed your discussion of range in real world
> conditions. My EV experience is fairly close to what you have outlined
> here today.
>
> My Prius just turned over 50,000 miles and it is 52 months old. That
> works out to about 32 miles a day if I did the math correctly.
>
> I am also on my third EV right now.
> http://www.evalbum.com/3175
>
> The Red Beastie was my inspiration for building the Toyota pickup. As
> good as the truck is, it still fell short of my expectations and right
> now I am counting the days until I get the new Nissan Leaf. The Leaf
> may fall short of the 100 mile range number and thats OK with me. I
> also think that it will have better range than my Yoyo truck, so any
> improvement will make my life easier to deal with and not have OPEC
> in my life every day.
>
> If the range turns out to be ONLY 75 miles instead of 100 miles, I
> will still have more than double the 32 miles a day I have been
> averaging the last 4 years. That is enough safety factor for me to
> feel good about the car.
>
> Now the next question is how do we convince everyone else to drive an
> EV ? Simple, we need solar powered charge stations all over town that
> everyone can use whenever they need a "fill-up".
>
> Cheers,
> KJD

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Discussion Starter #12
It all depends on who the Trojan dealer is. Some are good and some are
downright sleazy. The one in SLC Utah is sleazy. Stay away from
Standard battery on Redwood road.

The problem that I had with Trojan was on my motorcycle. The first set
of batteries I bought were Costco "Deep Cycle" group 24 batteries.
That set lasted about 500 miles. I returned them to the local Costco
and they gave me a full cash refund. I told them thank you very much
and drove to the local Trojan dealer cash in hand.

I told the Trojan dealer that I wanted the best deep cycle battery
they had and I needed it in a group 24 format. I also told them I was
installing them in an electric motorcycle. They sold me a set of
batteries and the receipt said 48 month warranty. Fine I went home and
installed the batteries. 18 months later and the Trojans were junk. My
45 mile range had dropped to about 15 miles. I told them I wanted some
new batteries. They told me to get lost.

Trojan batteries installed in an EV do not have a warranty period. Do
not take my word for it, call the Trojan factory and ask them.

I argued with the store manager for about an hour before I left the
batteries sitting on the dock and drove away. Next day I called the
Trojan factory. Same story.

The Toyota truck was built BEFORE this happened with my motorcycle. If
I had it to do over again I would buy Lithium batteries instead of
floodies.

Right now I just hope this pack will last me long enough for the Leaf
to get here and then I will be selling the Toyota pickup.

Cheers,
KJD
http://www.evalbum.com/3175




On Oct 4, 2010, at 11:12 PM, David (Battery Boy) Hawkins wrote:

> Kyle (and All),
> Yes, I'm replying to a week old post, but there has been so much, um,
> stuff to weed through lately...
> I looked at your EV Album page per your link below and was curious
> about the Trojan warranty comment. Although I haven't bought new
> Trojan floodies for awhile, I never had a problem with them, and when
> a fellow EV'er had a problem with one, the supplier exchanged it, no
> questions asked. Also, I notice under the Batteries section that you
> used T-125's. With a heavy on-road vehicle the T-145's handle the high
> currents better because of their thicker plates, and have less voltage
> sag. You mention them not meeting their Ah rating. What current did
> you use to test them, was it at 77 degrees, and after some break-in
> cycles? Your comment under Range makes me think you need battery
> insulation!
> Suck Amps,
> BB
>
>
>> Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 09:50:02 -0600
>> From: Kyle Dansie
>>
>> Steve,
>> Really enjoyed your discussion of range in real world
>> conditions. My EV experience is fairly close to what you have
>> outlined
>> here today.
>>
>> My Prius just turned over 50,000 miles and it is 52 months old. That
>> works out to about 32 miles a day if I did the math correctly.
>>
>> I am also on my third EV right now.
>> http://www.evalbum.com/3175
>>
>> The Red Beastie was my inspiration for building the Toyota pickup. As
>> good as the truck is, it still fell short of my expectations and
>> right
>> now I am counting the days until I get the new Nissan Leaf. The Leaf
>> may fall short of the 100 mile range number and thats OK with me. I
>> also think that it will have better range than my Yoyo truck, so any
>> improvement will make my life easier to deal with and not have OPEC
>> in my life every day.
>>
>> If the range turns out to be ONLY 75 miles instead of 100 miles, I
>> will still have more than double the 32 miles a day I have been
>> averaging the last 4 years. That is enough safety factor for me to
>> feel good about the car.
>>
>> Now the next question is how do we convince everyone else to drive an
>> EV ? Simple, we need solar powered charge stations all over town that
>> everyone can use whenever they need a "fill-up".
>>
>> Cheers,
>> KJD
>
> _______________________________________________
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Discussion Starter #13
The invoice you received is a contract that says 48 month warranty. If does
not say on the contract that these batteries are not for a EV, then its
implied that its for the vehicle you have and is warranty for 48 months.

Take the contract to a small claim court and present your contract as
stated. Ask the dealer what are these golf cart batteries use for. He will
have to say they are use for a golf cart. Then you say how the golf cart is
power. He will have to say by the batteries to a electric motor.

Then you say, then that's a electric vehicle. You can also present the
photo's and info from the Trojan Web site which shows this type of electric
vehicle and no place that it says that these batteries are not for a
electric vehicle.

I find if you summit a lot of data, material, and knowledge for your case,
the judge will 99 percent of the time will judge in your favor.

When I purchase a set of batteries, I write a complete set of specifications
for a balance set of batteries stating the maximum voltage difference,
Marine Cranking Amp (MCA) maximum difference and the specific gravity
difference plus all the batteries must all be manufacture on the same date.

One time the dealer slip me 10 T-145's that were 9 months old that he want
to get rid of first which were mix with 20 new batteries. One of these
older batteries only lasted list then 5 seconds which blew. I then found
out about the manufacture date and I made him replace the 10 batteries or if
not we can replace all 30 batteries with a judgment.

Roland




----- Original Message -----
From: "Kyle Dansie" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] recent discussion, leaf, range, Li Ion,conversion
servicability


> It all depends on who the Trojan dealer is. Some are good and some are
> downright sleazy. The one in SLC Utah is sleazy. Stay away from
> Standard battery on Redwood road.
>
> The problem that I had with Trojan was on my motorcycle. The first set
> of batteries I bought were Costco "Deep Cycle" group 24 batteries.
> That set lasted about 500 miles. I returned them to the local Costco
> and they gave me a full cash refund. I told them thank you very much
> and drove to the local Trojan dealer cash in hand.
>
> I told the Trojan dealer that I wanted the best deep cycle battery
> they had and I needed it in a group 24 format. I also told them I was
> installing them in an electric motorcycle. They sold me a set of
> batteries and the receipt said 48 month warranty. Fine I went home and
> installed the batteries. 18 months later and the Trojans were junk. My
> 45 mile range had dropped to about 15 miles. I told them I wanted some
> new batteries. They told me to get lost.
>
> Trojan batteries installed in an EV do not have a warranty period. Do
> not take my word for it, call the Trojan factory and ask them.
>
> I argued with the store manager for about an hour before I left the
> batteries sitting on the dock and drove away. Next day I called the
> Trojan factory. Same story.
>
> The Toyota truck was built BEFORE this happened with my motorcycle. If
> I had it to do over again I would buy Lithium batteries instead of
> floodies.
>
> Right now I just hope this pack will last me long enough for the Leaf
> to get here and then I will be selling the Toyota pickup.
>
> Cheers,
> KJD
> http://www.evalbum.com/3175
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 4, 2010, at 11:12 PM, David (Battery Boy) Hawkins wrote:
>
> > Kyle (and All),
> > Yes, I'm replying to a week old post, but there has been so much, um,
> > stuff to weed through lately...
> > I looked at your EV Album page per your link below and was curious
> > about the Trojan warranty comment. Although I haven't bought new
> > Trojan floodies for awhile, I never had a problem with them, and when
> > a fellow EV'er had a problem with one, the supplier exchanged it, no
> > questions asked. Also, I notice under the Batteries section that you
> > used T-125's. With a heavy on-road vehicle the T-145's handle the high
> > currents better because of their thicker plates, and have less voltage
> > sag. You mention them not meeting their Ah rating. What current did
> > you use to test them, was it at 77 degrees, and after some break-in
> > cycles? Your comment under Range makes me think you need battery
> > insulation!
> > Suck Amps,
> > BB
> >
> >
> >> Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 09:50:02 -0600
> >> From: Kyle Dansie
> >>
> >> Steve,
> >> Really enjoyed your discussion of range in real world
> >> conditions. My EV experience is fairly close to what you have
> >> outlined
> >> here today.
> >>
> >> My Prius just turned over 50,000 miles and it is 52 months old. That
> >> works out to about 32 miles a day if I did the math correctly.
> >>
> >> I am also on my third EV right now.
> >> http://www.evalbum.com/3175
> >>
> >> The Red Beastie was my inspiration for building the Toyota pickup. As
> >> good as the truck is, it still fell short of my expectations and
> >> right
> >> now I am counting the days until I get the new Nissan Leaf. The Leaf
> >> may fall short of the 100 mile range number and thats OK with me. I
> >> also think that it will have better range than my Yoyo truck, so any
> >> improvement will make my life easier to deal with and not have OPEC
> >> in my life every day.
> >>
> >> If the range turns out to be ONLY 75 miles instead of 100 miles, I
> >> will still have more than double the 32 miles a day I have been
> >> averaging the last 4 years. That is enough safety factor for me to
> >> feel good about the car.
> >>
> >> Now the next question is how do we convince everyone else to drive an
> >> EV ? Simple, we need solar powered charge stations all over town that
> >> everyone can use whenever they need a "fill-up".
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> KJD
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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>
> _______________________________________________
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