I read a little of the recent discussion on the Leaf and the down play of it. I'm an EV guy and have been doing this for a long time. I've owned 8 EV's and have 2 right now. So, I would consider myself informed about EVs, range limitation, servicability, etc. Here is my take:
1) I am really excited to see a mainstream EV that Joe Sixpack can go to a dealer and buy. And, if it breaks, he has a way to get it serviced. And, it comes with a warranty so he isn't worried if it is a dud. This is the biggest issue with EVs currently available. Excluding the Tesla, which is available, and can be serviced somehow. All other EVs out there today are either home made (one off designs), limited production from a conversion company (with very limited support, if any), old OEM vehicles with absolutely no support (S-10, Ranger, etc. - basically anything built in the late 90's or early part of the 00's). The trouble with all these is:
When they need service - good luck! You are on your own. I am
an engineer, and I can fix my own EV to an extent. But, there are
some things that even I can't do. Some EV's are essentially scrap
if they break because there is no reasonable way to repair them,
short of re-engineering the whole car. This is a major reason why
EV's have got a bad rap.
So, I'm excited purely because they are available and sustainable.
2) I have a major issue with all range claims on any EV's, and I have had that issue for years. Anyone with EV experience knows what I am talking about. People seem to state range on ideal conditions, and in your real world, you are lucky to get 1/2 what they tell you. Are they lying? Not really. They are truthful assuming you drive it on a flat test track at 25 MPH constant speed on an almost new batt pack under all ideal conditions. Pretty much all automotive advertizing is this way. Do you really get 31 MPG if that is what the label says? NO. Not in my real world. So, set your expectations straight. Understand what the technology can do. If it works for you, and you want the car, get it. Otherwise get something different. There is always the Volt, which eliminates the range anxiety issue and still runs on battery only for UP TO 40 miles. I never said 40 miles. It may be 20 miles some days.
3) More on range. I find all these statistics very annoying. My household has a 2005 car that we got new in late 05. It now has about 55,000 miles. Tht works out to 965 miles / month. And I consider us people that don't drive much. Even on the low side, excluding long trips, we need at least 900 miles / month, year round, hot cold, rain, sleet, and snow. So, you take the 900 and divide by 30. So, then we need 30 miles on average. So, why not get some old conversion with 16-18 golf cart batteries and we'd be set? First of all. Been there, done that, have two of them sitting in the garage / driveway. One of those old golf cart battery driven conversions with 16-18 batteries is good for a reliable 20-25 miles. That's it. And, in cold weather, real cold weather, make that 18-20 miles. Never going to make it 30 miles if you want the batteries to last. I know becuse my two really old conversions have 14,500 and 25,000 EV miles respectively.
That's not a lot of EV miles for cars that are this old. And they are more than 15 years old, one is 30 years old. 25,000 miles in 30 years. Even the one I drove regularly, I had trouble putting more than 4000-5000 miles / year. And, I was really trying to drive it whenever I could. Opportunity charging and everything. So, working hard to drive an EV in the real world, I can get 5000 miles per year. Most people need at least 10,000 miles / year. Others need 15,000 plus. Based on all that, using lead acid batts, I would need at least 35 batteries. Then, I need a bigger vehicle. That is less efficient and that 35 goes to 40. So, 40 golf cart batteries to make an EV that is actually useful, assuming golf cart batteries. Can anyone say Red Beastie? Anything less and I'm stuck back in the 4000 - 5000 miles per year. So, you say Li Ion. I say, you need a big old bag of money. You need the batts. You need a balancing system. You need a real
high end charger. You probably need temperature controlled environment. You need a whole lot of stuff. Don't have that stuff and it won't last. I don't care how careful you think you are or how bulletproof you think your system is. Things happen. They will happen and that is a lot of money to lose. If you have all that money, buy a leaf or Volt. At least you get a warranty and servicability.
I'm glad to see these EVs and have them available. I just hope everyone straightens out their expectations so they don't get a bad wrap again. Stop trying to sell your old 16 golf cart battery conversion with a fictional 40 mile range. Tell the truth. That goes for the auto makers too. Anyone who has misled someone about EV performance or range is just as guilty as the next guy. It is time for everyone to tell the truth. Then, people will actually buy EVs. When they can trust the spec sheet.
Steve
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1) I am really excited to see a mainstream EV that Joe Sixpack can go to a dealer and buy. And, if it breaks, he has a way to get it serviced. And, it comes with a warranty so he isn't worried if it is a dud. This is the biggest issue with EVs currently available. Excluding the Tesla, which is available, and can be serviced somehow. All other EVs out there today are either home made (one off designs), limited production from a conversion company (with very limited support, if any), old OEM vehicles with absolutely no support (S-10, Ranger, etc. - basically anything built in the late 90's or early part of the 00's). The trouble with all these is:
When they need service - good luck! You are on your own. I am
an engineer, and I can fix my own EV to an extent. But, there are
some things that even I can't do. Some EV's are essentially scrap
if they break because there is no reasonable way to repair them,
short of re-engineering the whole car. This is a major reason why
EV's have got a bad rap.
So, I'm excited purely because they are available and sustainable.
2) I have a major issue with all range claims on any EV's, and I have had that issue for years. Anyone with EV experience knows what I am talking about. People seem to state range on ideal conditions, and in your real world, you are lucky to get 1/2 what they tell you. Are they lying? Not really. They are truthful assuming you drive it on a flat test track at 25 MPH constant speed on an almost new batt pack under all ideal conditions. Pretty much all automotive advertizing is this way. Do you really get 31 MPG if that is what the label says? NO. Not in my real world. So, set your expectations straight. Understand what the technology can do. If it works for you, and you want the car, get it. Otherwise get something different. There is always the Volt, which eliminates the range anxiety issue and still runs on battery only for UP TO 40 miles. I never said 40 miles. It may be 20 miles some days.
3) More on range. I find all these statistics very annoying. My household has a 2005 car that we got new in late 05. It now has about 55,000 miles. Tht works out to 965 miles / month. And I consider us people that don't drive much. Even on the low side, excluding long trips, we need at least 900 miles / month, year round, hot cold, rain, sleet, and snow. So, you take the 900 and divide by 30. So, then we need 30 miles on average. So, why not get some old conversion with 16-18 golf cart batteries and we'd be set? First of all. Been there, done that, have two of them sitting in the garage / driveway. One of those old golf cart battery driven conversions with 16-18 batteries is good for a reliable 20-25 miles. That's it. And, in cold weather, real cold weather, make that 18-20 miles. Never going to make it 30 miles if you want the batteries to last. I know becuse my two really old conversions have 14,500 and 25,000 EV miles respectively.
That's not a lot of EV miles for cars that are this old. And they are more than 15 years old, one is 30 years old. 25,000 miles in 30 years. Even the one I drove regularly, I had trouble putting more than 4000-5000 miles / year. And, I was really trying to drive it whenever I could. Opportunity charging and everything. So, working hard to drive an EV in the real world, I can get 5000 miles per year. Most people need at least 10,000 miles / year. Others need 15,000 plus. Based on all that, using lead acid batts, I would need at least 35 batteries. Then, I need a bigger vehicle. That is less efficient and that 35 goes to 40. So, 40 golf cart batteries to make an EV that is actually useful, assuming golf cart batteries. Can anyone say Red Beastie? Anything less and I'm stuck back in the 4000 - 5000 miles per year. So, you say Li Ion. I say, you need a big old bag of money. You need the batts. You need a balancing system. You need a real
high end charger. You probably need temperature controlled environment. You need a whole lot of stuff. Don't have that stuff and it won't last. I don't care how careful you think you are or how bulletproof you think your system is. Things happen. They will happen and that is a lot of money to lose. If you have all that money, buy a leaf or Volt. At least you get a warranty and servicability.
I'm glad to see these EVs and have them available. I just hope everyone straightens out their expectations so they don't get a bad wrap again. Stop trying to sell your old 16 golf cart battery conversion with a fictional 40 mile range. Tell the truth. That goes for the auto makers too. Anyone who has misled someone about EV performance or range is just as guilty as the next guy. It is time for everyone to tell the truth. Then, people will actually buy EVs. When they can trust the spec sheet.
Steve
_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
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