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Discussion Starter #1
I need some help to think through as issue.

I'm converting a 2002 S10 Shortbed, and I intend to put fourteen 12v batteries IN the bed, not under it. The fourteenth will be for low-voltage accessories.

The only things left under the hood will be my ADC 9-inch motor, a control board, and some other small components. In the event of a front-end collision, these items would not absorb the impact as well as the engine they replaced.

So, bottom line: How concerned should I be? Enough to move some of the batts into the front? Am I creating a safety hazard by not putting at least some of the batteries in front of the motor?

I'd rather not do that because I want the room to work out my air conditioning solution.

That's the situation. If you have any thoughts on this, fire away...


Steve Kobb
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1280



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Discussion Starter #2
Steve Kobb wrote:

> I'm converting a 2002 S10 Shortbed, and I intend to put
> fourteen 12v batteries IN the bed, not under it. The
> fourteenth will be for low-voltage accessories.
>
> The only things left under the hood will be my ADC 9-inch
> motor, a control board, and some other small components. In
> the event of a front-end collision, these items would not
> absorb the impact as well as the engine they replaced.
>
> So, bottom line: How concerned should I be?

I wouldn't be particularly concerned about the lack of batteries under
the hood. The ICE doesn't crush to absorb crash energy, it and the
tranny get pushed back into/beneath the cab. The electric motor and
tranny will behave similarly even if the electric motor is a bit lighter
than the ICE was.

My concern would be having the batteries all stacked in the bed of the
truck. In the event of a frontal collision, all that mass will want to
keep moving forward and will result in the front end crumpling more than
it would have in the ICE version. In a worst case, the cab gets
squished between whatever you hit and 1000lbs of lead.

I'd put the batteries under the bed; the mass is still there and will
still result in greater crumpling of the front end, but at least they
can't come forward and push the back fo the cab and you towards the
steering wheel...

I read an SAE article some time ago describing EV battery box design,
and specifically explaining how a good design might locate the batteries
in a box beneath the vehicle with mounts designed to come loose in a
sufficiently severe accident so that the battery box and its payload
could break free of the vehicle and decelerate on its own rather than
remaining attached and causing even greater crushing of the vehicle.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Discussion Starter #3
A collision with the batteries securely fastened in the bed couldn't be any worse than with a 1500 to 2000 lb camper in the bed, could it?

My only other question though, is where is your 13th battery?
;-)

Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.

----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Stockton <[email protected]>
Date: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 1:25 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] S10 in a head-on crash - all batts in bed
To: [email protected], Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>

> Steve Kobb wrote:
>
> > I'm converting a 2002 S10 Shortbed, and I intend to put
> > fourteen 12v batteries IN the bed, not under it. The
> > fourteenth will be for low-voltage accessories.
> >
> > The only things left under the hood will be my ADC 9-inch
> > motor, a control board, and some other small components. In
> > the event of a front-end collision, these items would not
> > absorb the impact as well as the engine they replaced.
> >
> > So, bottom line: How concerned should I be?
>
> I wouldn't be particularly concerned about the lack of batteries under
> the hood. The ICE doesn't crush to absorb crash energy, it and the
> tranny get pushed back into/beneath the cab. The electric motor and
> tranny will behave similarly even if the electric motor is a bit
> lighterthan the ICE was.
>
> My concern would be having the batteries all stacked in the bed of the
> truck. In the event of a frontal collision, all that mass will
> want to
> keep moving forward and will result in the front end crumpling more
> thanit would have in the ICE version. In a worst case, the cab gets
> squished between whatever you hit and 1000lbs of lead.
>
> I'd put the batteries under the bed; the mass is still there and will
> still result in greater crumpling of the front end, but at least they
> can't come forward and push the back fo the cab and you towards the
> steering wheel...
>
> I read an SAE article some time ago describing EV battery box design,
> and specifically explaining how a good design might locate the
> batteriesin a box beneath the vehicle with mounts designed to come
> loose in a
> sufficiently severe accident so that the battery box and its payload
> could break free of the vehicle and decelerate on its own rather than
> remaining attached and causing even greater crushing of the vehicle.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter #4
MIKE WILLMON wrote:

> A collision with the batteries securely fastened in the bed
> couldn't be any worse than with a 1500 to 2000 lb camper in
> the bed, could it?

The batteries are much more compact and could act as a much more
effective battering ram. To a large extent it may depend on how the
"securely fastened" part is implemented.

I don't think I've met a 1500-2000lb camper yet, particlularly that a
1/2 ton S10/S15 would be carrying! ;^>

Do they crash test pickups with or without a full payload?...

I expect that as long as the batteries are secured reasonably (and not
lined up in a nice row down the length of the box right behind the
driver ;^) it shouldn't be much different in a crash from carrying
1000lbs of bricks, but I'd personally still rather have that mass where
it can pass below the cab instead of through it...

Cheers,

Roger.

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks, All.

I should have been more explicit about the reason for wanting those
batteries in the bed.

It's simple: I live in Houston, and Houston floods.

Now, there may be a way to make those batt boxes waterproof, so I'm open to
any guidance you might have.

However, I gotta tell 'ya: The idea of driving a fully-charged EV through a
foot-and-a-half of standing water does not really turn me on... or at least
not in a way that I would enjoy.

So I latched on to the batts-in-the-bed solution just as a way to keep 'em
high 'n dry. If there's a way to keep 'em low and GUARANTEED dry, well...
talk to me.

Welded polypropylene perhaps?

Cheers,

Steve Kobb
--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/S10-in-a-head-on-crash---all-batts-in-bed-tf4307863s25542.html#a12264662
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Discussion Starter #6
Steve Kobb wrote:
> Thanks, All.
>
> I should have been more explicit about the reason for wanting those
> batteries in the bed.
>
> It's simple: I live in Houston, and Houston floods.
>
> Now, there may be a way to make those batt boxes waterproof, so I'm open to
> any guidance you might have.
>
> However, I gotta tell 'ya: The idea of driving a fully-charged EV through a
> foot-and-a-half of standing water does not really turn me on... or at least
> not in a way that I would enjoy.
>
> So I latched on to the batts-in-the-bed solution just as a way to keep 'em
> high 'n dry. If there's a way to keep 'em low and GUARANTEED dry, well...
> talk to me.
>
> Welded polypropylene perhaps?


To "guarantee" your batteries stay dry, you'll need to build a
weather-sealed enclosure, whether it's in the bed or under. (If it's
flooding, it's probably because it's also raining) :) If you can do
that, then having it under the bed makes little difference. Use
liquid-tight flexible conduit and the corresponding fittings for wiring
connections. Ductwork for ventilation fans may be a little challenging
but it's doable, and the problem is mostly the same regardless of
battery location.

DC motors can run partially submerged in a pinch (make sure it's cleaned
out of any sediment afterward, and dry inside; see recent EVDL
discussion of this topic in the archive from the past month or two for
more info/opinions). If you're paranoid about it, a sealed liquid-cooled
AC motor may be a better idea. With Victor's Simovert units, the
controller/inverter is also gasketed and weather sealed as I recall.



--
Christopher Robison
[email protected]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!

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Discussion Starter #7
Put them in a box and pressurize it to a few psi with a small pump like some
military 4x4 axles. But how are you going to keep the terminals on the
motor out of the water?

Can you put the batteries in an air tight box? Don't they need ventilation?
Maybe you can put a couple snorkle pipes from the box up the back of the cab
and make them look like Semi exhaust pipes.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Kobb" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] S10 in a head-on crash - all batts in bed


>
> Thanks, All.
>
> I should have been more explicit about the reason for wanting those
> batteries in the bed.
>
> It's simple: I live in Houston, and Houston floods.
>
> Now, there may be a way to make those batt boxes waterproof, so I'm open
> to
> any guidance you might have.
>
> However, I gotta tell 'ya: The idea of driving a fully-charged EV through
> a
> foot-and-a-half of standing water does not really turn me on... or at
> least
> not in a way that I would enjoy.
>
> So I latched on to the batts-in-the-bed solution just as a way to keep 'em
> high 'n dry. If there's a way to keep 'em low and GUARANTEED dry, well...
> talk to me.
>
> Welded polypropylene perhaps?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Steve Kobb
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/S10-in-a-head-on-crash---all-batts-in-bed-tf4307863s25542.html#a12264662
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


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Discussion Starter #8
You're asking the wrong question.
If you are insured for the price of the components
(called a "stated-value" policy) and not the
replacement cost of an S10 gas-burner, then the
question is irrelevant. If you're going on normal
insurance, you're screwed in the event of a collision
anyway; controller, motor & DCDC will likely be toast
and you're out 3500 or more for electronics alone...
Personally, I'd stick two batts. in the front, just
to have additional weight keeping the wheels on the
ground for traction and better steering; at least the
aux. batt. You can always re-do the racks when you
get that AC back, and it's not as bad as it seems...


--- Steve Kobb <[email protected]> wrote:

> I need some help to think through as issue.
>
> I'm converting a 2002 S10 Shortbed, and I intend to
> put fourteen 12v batteries IN the bed, not under it.
> The fourteenth will be for low-voltage accessories.
>
> The only things left under the hood will be my ADC
> 9-inch motor, a control board, and some other small
> components. In the event of a front-end collision,
> these items would not absorb the impact as well as
> the engine they replaced.
>
> So, bottom line: How concerned should I be? Enough
> to move some of the batts into the front? Am I
> creating a safety hazard by not putting at least
> some of the batteries in front of the motor?
>
> I'd rather not do that because I want the room to
> work out my air conditioning solution.
>
> That's the situation. If you have any thoughts on
> this, fire away...
>
>
> Steve Kobb
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1280
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? For $20 DVD you can purchase footage of my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at: www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html ____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?


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Discussion Starter #9
I made some of my battery boxes by first making a plywood mold which will
shape the inside of the battery box. For the top edge of the box, I screw
on a 1/4 inch by 3 inch piece of plywood that makes a flat area for a
fiberglass 1/4 inch cover to come down on.

To make it water proof, make this top flange about 1 inch horizontal flange
and than come down vertical for 1 inch and than go 1 inch horizontal again.
This gives a top lip a Z pattern where the top 1 inch wide and bottom 1
inch wide flanges have a double rib weather stripping which is the good ones
that is close foam, not the standard foam rubber type.

After you make your wood mold, than glue on a smooth surface piece of floor
vinyl to make the surface smooth that will be against the batteries.

Go to a industrial fiberglass place that also uses this method in mold
making and you can have them lay up the fiber glass which will be in layers
of cloth only. You can also pick up the material to do it your self, but I
find its cheaper to have them do it, if you have a source for this.

You also want to make a cover that will fit the top of these battery boxes
that will also have the zig zag edges. The cover can either be clamp down
tight on the out side with plated buckle type clamps or you can fasten the
cover to the bottom of pickup bed, where when its lifted, the cover comes up
too.

This will be rain tight and splash proof, but if you submersed it in a river
for a while, it may lick some.

To get the cable feeds and some air venting, I use the standard high
pressure PVC pipe fitting in the 2 inch size. I come off with the long
sweep PVC 90 degree 2 inch elbows. I connect the flexible 2 inch HD hoses
that are normally use for large vacuum systems which is use as conduit for
the cable and connecting to a inline all plastic fans for a filter intake
and exhaust which connects to 2 inch PVC rigid piping that is install below
the pickup box, like a engine exhaust.

You can get all these materials and fittings from one of the large hardware
stores, except the fiberglass material which you can also get from a auto
supply paint store.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Kobb" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] S10 in a head-on crash - all batts in bed


>
> Thanks, All.
>
> I should have been more explicit about the reason for wanting those
> batteries in the bed.
>
> It's simple: I live in Houston, and Houston floods.
>
> Now, there may be a way to make those batt boxes waterproof, so I'm open
> to
> any guidance you might have.
>
> However, I gotta tell 'ya: The idea of driving a fully-charged EV through
> a
> foot-and-a-half of standing water does not really turn me on... or at
> least
> not in a way that I would enjoy.
>
> So I latched on to the batts-in-the-bed solution just as a way to keep 'em
> high 'n dry. If there's a way to keep 'em low and GUARANTEED dry, well...
> talk to me.
>
> Welded polypropylene perhaps?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Steve Kobb
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/S10-in-a-head-on-crash---all-batts-in-bed-tf4307863s25542.html#a12264662
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter #10
Roland --

Thank you so much for the detailed description of your boxes.

I'm going to show your message to a local fiberglass shop, and see if they
might have an interest in working with me on this project.

As I get deeper into it, I may want to contact you again to ask about a few
details that I don't fully understand at the moment.

Steve Kobb
--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/S10-in-a-head-on-crash---all-batts-in-bed-tf4307863s25542.html#a12266351
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Discussion Starter #11
One more thing I forgot to add. You can have them embed 3 by 3 by 3/8 inch
angle iron at the ends of the box and the sides of the box which are welded
to the end angle iron. I had large 4 x 4 x 3/8 inch angle welded to the
frame for these box supports to set on. Had to welded gusset plates across
the angle iron, because they would bend some. Bolted them together with
two 1/2 bolts at each support bracket.

You may have to construct a cross member just behind the cab that goes to
both frame rails. I made one of these out of a 4 x 4 x 1/4 inch square
steel tubing that had a offset to go under the drive line. The rear of many
pickups has a cross member, so you can bolt to this.

My EV, a El Camino has been lower 4 inches and I would be scrapping the
ground, anyway I cannot lift the bed anyway. But I use this same method to
make the fiberglass boxes to fit in the bed which places the batteries ahead
of the rear axle.

Coat the fiberglass with the sink and tub epoxy kits you can get from a
hardware store.

Roland




----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Kobb" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 7:15 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] S10 in a head-on crash - all batts in bed


>
> Roland --
>
> Thank you so much for the detailed description of your boxes.
>
> I'm going to show your message to a local fiberglass shop, and see if they
> might have an interest in working with me on this project.
>
> As I get deeper into it, I may want to contact you again to ask about a
> few
> details that I don't fully understand at the moment.
>
> Steve Kobb
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/S10-in-a-head-on-crash---all-batts-in-bed-tf4307863s25542.html#a12266351
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter #13
Steve,

I have two comments.
Handling (i.e.) steering will be much better with some batteries under the
hood. You can fit from 4 to 8 batteries there depending how you squeeze.
4 is easy if they're no bigger than a Trojan T-125 leaving I think plenty
of room for A/C equipment.

Then you're vehicle is better balanced, & easier to handle and HENCE ABLE
TO AVOID HEAD ON COLLISIONS BETTER.

Next, You're only using twelve 12 volt batteries and intend to have air
conditioning?

I think you'll be in for a surprise.
I don't have Air conditioning yet, , but am planning and willing to
sacrifice 15 miles of 50 mile range to have it on the worst hot days.

But I have to guess that only twelve batteries will equal 20 miles of range
(safely) can you sacrifice half your range to run the air conditioner?
Is it then worth it?

You would probably need a whole pack of batteries to run it which would be
better utilized increasing your range

Good luck, anything you need, ask,
Ben

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Discussion Starter #14
Steve,

I have two comments.
Handling (i.e.) steering will be much better with some batteries under the
hood. You can fit from 4 to 8 batteries there depending how you squeeze.
4 is easy if they're no bigger than a Trojan T-125 leaving I think plenty
of room for A/C equipment.

Then you're vehicle is better balanced, & easier to handle and HENCE ABLE
TO AVOID HEAD ON COLLISIONS BETTER.

Next, You're only using twelve 12 volt batteries and intend to have air
conditioning?

I think you'll be in for a surprise.
I don't have Air conditioning yet, , but am planning and willing to
sacrifice 15 miles of 50 mile range to have it on the worst hot days.

But I have to guess that only twelve batteries will equal 20 miles of range
(safely) can you sacrifice half your range to run the air conditioner?
Is it then worth it?

You would probably need a whole pack of batteries to run it which would be
better utilized increasing your range

Good luck, anything you need, ask,
Ben


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Discussion Starter #15
storm connors wrote:
> Do you really see a problem with getting batteries wet once in a
> while? What do you see as the problem?

Sealed batteries couldn't care less if they are submerged. Water has no
effect on them. Flooded batteries can leak; air will bubble out the vent
cap, and the surrounding dirty water can get inside. This has no
short-term effect (the battery still works fine), but it will shorten
its life.

The water won't hurt the motor short-term, either. It will still work
even underwater. But the water will rust or corrode things in the long
run, so you will want to clean and dry it out as quickly as practical.

Your main concern will be with the electronics. The water will murder
electronics like your controller, charger, DC/DC converter etc. in short
order! If they get wet, stop immediately! Do NOT power them up AT ALL
until they are TOTALLY cleaned and dried out. If you do, they are likely
to make their own thunder and lightning!

Otherwise, water will create all sorts of electrical leakage paths in
the batteries, motor, and other wiring. Most of these are in the
nuisance category, rather than causing any immediate problem. They won't
conduct enough to run down your batteries, or short your motor. But they
WILL conduct enough to give you an unpleasant shock, or to cause the
GFCI in a charger to trip.

In general, I like Roland's solution. Put your batteries under the bed,
in waterproof boxes. Even if they leak a little, there will be enough
air space inside to handle maybe half a gallon of leakage before it
reaches the battery tops. So driving through a flooded intersection
wouldn't stop you -- just remember to check for and drain out any water
once you get home. Likewise, the drive home should warm up the motor
sufficiently to steam off any loose water in it.

--
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citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
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Discussion Starter #16
>
> Your main concern will be with the electronics. The water will murder
> electronics like your controller, charger, DC/DC converter etc. in short
> order! If they get wet, stop immediately! Do NOT power them up AT ALL
> until they are TOTALLY cleaned and dried out. If you do, they are likely
> to make their own thunder and lightning!
>
Yeah -- the electronics are the sensitive parts. I once poured about
60 gallons of 160F water into a 11kW inverter bank (some
miscommunication from the people draining a solar thermal storage tank
upstairs from the inverter room -- sort of a bad layout), and they
survived fine -- because I hit the main DC disconnects immediately.
If they had remained on, I expect it would have been much more
exiting.... and expensive.

Z

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