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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The project I'm building is still in the consideration stage, but I
have the car (1960 Nash Metropolitan), I have the controller (Curtis
1231C) and I have the transmission and motor (S10 and a 90's vintage
23HP GE Forklift motor). I'm also putting in a 4:11 rear from an S10.
still I have to decide on front brakes (probably custom or maybe a
Mustang II rack).

But mostly I need help deciding on a battery pack.

I have a rotisserie made of old engine stands so I can easily weld in
frame reinforcements and racks to take a 950lb Pb battery pack and
that's where I need to know if I'm insane. My plotted commute at
45MPH is 21 miles each way with no charging station. All the
calculators I've used suggest that a pack that heavy should be able to
take me 55 miles to 80% DOD so it seems that my plan should fulfill my
commute requirement. It's not too hilly and traffic is light in the
morning but likely to be heavy in the evening. I can use an ICE car
for the winter months, though it doesn't get much below freezing in
these parts. The lead acid should get me some training in battery
tending and maybe BMS technology will be less expensive by the time
the batteries are spent and I can pick up some leavings from crashed
hybrids.

Does this sound about right? Or should I set my sights a little lower
and think of the EV as a bop around city car with half the range? It
will have a good amount of impact on how I build the chassis. Will it
be simply unbearable to tug a 900lb pack around or with the EV grin
overcome the mass of the project? I think quality of the drive is as
important to me as efficiency.

I know this is a bit of a wet blanket, but I'd appreciate any
criticism at this point to be sure I'm building a good project.

sean

-- =

Sean Korb [email protected] http://www.spkorb.org
'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
950 lbs of what kind of lead? AGMs don't like to go below 50% Floodies can
tolerate 80% as can Gels.

12V, 8V, or 6V batts? How many? How many AH are they rated for (20 Hr
value)?


Here's a calculation method I've found that seems to match well to what I
get for range (can't remember where I found it):

(Total pack voltage X AH rating of each battery) = watt-hours (whr) stored

whr stored X 0.57 (adjustment for Peukert effect) X 0.80 (useable DOD for
floodies or Gels) = usable whr

useable whr divided by watt-hours per mile used (conservative value =
300-350; not sure how aerodynamic the Nash is) = range in miles


Peter Flipsen Jr


Sean Korb <[email protected]> wrote:

> The project I'm building is still in the consideration stage, but I
> have the car (1960 Nash Metropolitan), I have the controller (Curtis
> 1231C) and I have the transmission and motor (S10 and a 90's vintage
> 23HP GE Forklift motor). I'm also putting in a 4:11 rear from an S10.
> still I have to decide on front brakes (probably custom or maybe a
> Mustang II rack).
>
> But mostly I need help deciding on a battery pack.
>
> I have a rotisserie made of old engine stands so I can easily weld in
> frame reinforcements and racks to take a 950lb Pb battery pack and
> that's where I need to know if I'm insane. My plotted commute at
> 45MPH is 21 miles each way with no charging station. All the
> calculators I've used suggest that a pack that heavy should be able to
> take me 55 miles to 80% DOD so it seems that my plan should fulfill my
> commute requirement. It's not too hilly and traffic is light in the
> morning but likely to be heavy in the evening. I can use an ICE car
> for the winter months, though it doesn't get much below freezing in
> these parts. The lead acid should get me some training in battery
> tending and maybe BMS technology will be less expensive by the time
> the batteries are spent and I can pick up some leavings from crashed
> hybrids.
>
> Does this sound about right? Or should I set my sights a little lower
> and think of the EV as a bop around city car with half the range? It
> will have a good amount of impact on how I build the chassis. Will it
> be simply unbearable to tug a 900lb pack around or with the EV grin
> overcome the mass of the project? I think quality of the drive is as
> important to me as efficiency.
>
> I know this is a bit of a wet blanket, but I'd appreciate any
> criticism at this point to be sure I'm building a good project.
>
> sean
>
> --
> Sean Korb [email protected] http://www.spkorb.org
> '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
> "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
> "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
>
>
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Sean

I believe there are a few Metropolitan EVs around, so you should be
able to see what others have done. At 950 lbs, is your pack heavier
than your car? Not much car for an awful lot of lead.

Also, I wouldn't plan on using a lead pack to 80% on a regular basis.
Usually you don't want to drain your pack below 50% on a regular
basis, and that might not meet your range needs. You may want to
rethink your plan, or plan on replacing your pack a little early.

DAC

Sean Korb <[email protected]> wrote:
> The project I'm building is still in the consideration stage, but I
> have the car (1960 Nash Metropolitan), I have the controller (Curtis
> 1231C) and I have the transmission and motor (S10 and a 90's vintage
> 23HP GE Forklift motor). I'm also putting in a 4:11 rear from an S10.
> still I have to decide on front brakes (probably custom or maybe a
> Mustang II rack).
>
> But mostly I need help deciding on a battery pack.
>
> I have a rotisserie made of old engine stands so I can easily weld in
> frame reinforcements and racks to take a 950lb Pb battery pack and
> that's where I need to know if I'm insane. My plotted commute at
> 45MPH is 21 miles each way with no charging station. All the
> calculators I've used suggest that a pack that heavy should be able to
> take me 55 miles to 80% DOD so it seems that my plan should fulfill my
> commute requirement. It's not too hilly and traffic is light in the
> morning but likely to be heavy in the evening. I can use an ICE car
> for the winter months, though it doesn't get much below freezing in
> these parts. The lead acid should get me some training in battery
> tending and maybe BMS technology will be less expensive by the time
> the batteries are spent and I can pick up some leavings from crashed
> hybrids.
>
> Does this sound about right? Or should I set my sights a little lower
> and think of the EV as a bop around city car with half the range? It
> will have a good amount of impact on how I build the chassis. Will it
> be simply unbearable to tug a 900lb pack around or with the EV grin
> overcome the mass of the project? I think quality of the drive is as
> important to me as efficiency.
>
> I know this is a bit of a wet blanket, but I'd appreciate any
> criticism at this point to be sure I'm building a good project.
>
> sean
>
> --
> Sean Korb [email protected] http://www.spkorb.org
> '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
> "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
> "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



-- =

http://www.evalbum.com/2149

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks,

I was thinking of Golf Cart type flooded. 10 12V US Battery XC or
Trojan t1275 or in for a penny in for an extra 80 lbs and go with an
8V flooded pack of T-875.

Frontal area is small, though the aerodynamics are that of a brick.
120 X 155 AH =3D 18,600 (whr) stored

18600 X 0.57 X 0.80 =3D ~8480 whr

18600/300 (I'm an optimist) =3D 28 miles

That's a lot of battery to go 30 miles. Maybe I should shoot for 15
miles instead. Lighter pack and that still gets me to downtown and
back for excursions and they have a charging station there. It might
also get me to a Park & Ride.

It does seem like I'm asking a lot from that little car. For
something to do 45mile duty every day, a truck might be a better fit.
Or maybe a '60s compact like a Dart or Falcon. I'd like to drive an
exotic looking electric to work and back but I might have to wait just
a little longer for more accessible technology. Maybe I can do 45
miles with 700lbs of Prius batteries or take the plunge and try my
hand at LiIon :)


SLPinfo.org <[email protected]> wrote:
> 950 lbs of what kind of lead? AGMs don't like to go below 50% Flood=
ies can
> tolerate 80% as can Gels.
>
> 12V, 8V,or 6V batts? How many? How many AH are they rated for=
(20 Hr
> value)?
>
>
> Here's a calculation method I've found that seems to match well to what I
> get for range (can't remember where I found it):
>
> (Total pack voltage X AH rating of each battery) =3D watt-hours (whr) sto=
red
>
> whr stored X 0.57 (adjustment for Peukert effect) X 0.80 (useable DOD for
> floodies or Gels) =3D usable whr
>
> useable whrdivided by watt-hours per mile used(conservative value =
=3D
> 300-350; not sure how aerodynamic the Nash is) =3D range in miles
>
> Peter Flipsen Jr
>
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 2:05 PM, Sean Korb <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> The project I'm building is still in the consideration stage, but I
>> have the car (1960 Nash Metropolitan), I have the controller (Curtis
>> 1231C) and I have the transmission and motor (S10 and a 90's vintage
>> 23HP GE Forklift motor). I'm also putting in a 4:11 rear from an S10.
>> still I have to decide on front brakes (probably custom or maybe a
>> Mustang II rack).
>>
>> But mostly I need help deciding on a battery pack.
>>
>> I have a rotisserie made of old engine stands so I can easily weld in
>> frame reinforcements and racks to take a 950lb Pb battery pack and
>> that's where I need to know if I'm insane. My plotted commute at
>> 45MPH is 21 miles each way with no charging station. All the
>> calculators I've used suggest that a pack that heavy should be able to
>> take me 55 miles to 80% DOD so it seems that my plan should fulfill my
>> commute requirement. It's not too hilly and traffic is light in the
>> morning but likely to be heavy in the evening. I can use an ICE car
>> for the winter months, though it doesn't get much below freezing in
>> these parts. The lead acid should get me some training in battery
>> tending and maybe BMS technology will be less expensive by the time
>> the batteries are spent and I can pick up some leavings from crashed
>> hybrids.
>>
>> Does this sound about right? Or should I set my sights a little lower
>> and think of the EV as a bop around city car with half the range? It
>> will have a good amount of impact on how I build the chassis. Will it
>> be simply unbearable to tug a 900lb pack around or with the EV grin
>> overcome the mass of the project? I think quality of the drive is as
>> important to me as efficiency.
>>
>> I know this is a bit of a wet blanket, but I'd appreciate any
>> criticism at this point to be sure I'm building a good project.
>>
>> sean
>>
>> --
>> Sean Korb [email protected] http://www.spkorb.org
>> '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #13=
82
>> "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
>> "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
>>
>



-- =

Sean Korb [email protected] http://www.spkorb.org
'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
This is an in-progress entry: http://www.evalbum.com/1898
This is a 48V version: http://www.evalbum.com/2939
This era of car makes me think of Bob Aronson's Mars II.

With that big of a tranny and rear end, you must be planning on some
heavy current draws. For both high current and capacity, a small pack
of Hawkers and a lithium pack of slightly higher voltage come to mind,
but then you would have to put up with some Chinese bits.

> The project I'm building is still in the consideration stage, but I
> have the car (1960 Nash Metropolitan), I have the controller (Curtis
> 1231C) and I have the transmission and motor (S10 and a 90's vintage
> 23HP GE Forklift motor). I'm also putting in a 4:11 rear from an S10.
> still I have to decide on front brakes (probably custom or maybe a
> Mustang II rack).
>

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
On 27 Jan 2011 at 18:34, Sean Korb wrote:

> For something to do 45mile duty every day, a truck might be a better
> fit. Or maybe a '60s compact like a Dart or Falcon.

Very interesting! Hmm, I'm thinking 1967 Dart ... or even more interesting,
1966 Barracuda.

These cars had lots of battery room, and weren't as heavy as you might
think; most were under 3000lb. That's not much more than a modern compact
such as a Corolla or Focus.

In terms of performance, these cars might be similar to a modern small
pickup truck, or perhaps even better. In fact many of today's pickups trace
their fundamental design back about this far. They've changed very little
since the early 1960s.

I've often thought that the 1965 Opel Kadett I drove (ICE) for a while, back
in the 1970s, would have made a good EV conversion candidate. The trunk was
HUGE for such a small car. If I'd put the motor in the driveshaft tunnel, I
would have had lots of battery room front and rear.

It only weighed 1500lb in ICE trim, IIRC, so it would have been relatively
easy to get 50% of the car's weight in batteries, for range in the 60-80
mile neighborhood. I think it could have handled the weight, as it was a
typically overbuilt monocoque design (engineers didn't design to minimum
strength / weight / material using computers in those days).

I suspect that some slightly later models of the Kadett, say 1967-9, would
have much the same advantages. Opel made the trunk less optimal for
batteries in later years as they made the cars look sleeker, but they were
still large and deep (the gas tank was tucked into the left side of the
trunk - shades of the Pinto!).

A newer car with some of the same advantages for conversion would be a late-
80s Chevy Sprint (AKA Suzuki Swift, I think). Some of them weighed in the
1300lb range as ICEs, IIRC.

Of course any time you convert a 25-50 year old car, you have hassles with
getting spare parts, so its practicality as a daily driver is something to
consider.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
To pick a vehicle for a conversion, I first look at the parts and equipment
available for that vehicle. Some vehicles all the way back into the 50's
still can have all its body parts, suspensions, and drive line replace with
either original or reproduction.

For my 1977 El Camino, I actually can replace every thing with stock items
or light weight panels and bumpers as some of the new cars have now. I have
replace the power steering and vacuum brake system with a electric
hydro-boost braking system. No need for a vacuum pump.

Discarded the suspension springs and shocks with a Air Ride system. Some of
the guys have reduce the weight of these types of vehicles down to 1800 lbs
which includes a 800 hp 450 cu in engine on a chrome moly space frame.

Another thing to look at is the dealer or mechanic shop manual which gives
you how many hours to replace something in one vehicle as compare to another
vehicle. I stay away from one vehicle that was listed to take 8 hours to
replace a heater core as compare to my vehicle that takes 45 minutes.

Roland




----- Original Message -----
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sanity check


> On 27 Jan 2011 at 18:34, Sean Korb wrote:
>
> > For something to do 45mile duty every day, a truck might be a better
> > fit. Or maybe a '60s compact like a Dart or Falcon.
>
> Very interesting! Hmm, I'm thinking 1967 Dart ... or even more
> interesting,
> 1966 Barracuda.
>
> These cars had lots of battery room, and weren't as heavy as you might
> think; most were under 3000lb. That's not much more than a modern compact
> such as a Corolla or Focus.
>
> In terms of performance, these cars might be similar to a modern small
> pickup truck, or perhaps even better. In fact many of today's pickups
> trace
> their fundamental design back about this far. They've changed very little
> since the early 1960s.
>
> I've often thought that the 1965 Opel Kadett I drove (ICE) for a while,
> back
> in the 1970s, would have made a good EV conversion candidate. The trunk
> was
> HUGE for such a small car. If I'd put the motor in the driveshaft tunnel,
> I
> would have had lots of battery room front and rear.
>
> It only weighed 1500lb in ICE trim, IIRC, so it would have been relatively
> easy to get 50% of the car's weight in batteries, for range in the 60-80
> mile neighborhood. I think it could have handled the weight, as it was a
> typically overbuilt monocoque design (engineers didn't design to minimum
> strength / weight / material using computers in those days).
>
> I suspect that some slightly later models of the Kadett, say 1967-9, would
> have much the same advantages. Opel made the trunk less optimal for
> batteries in later years as they made the cars look sleeker, but they were
> still large and deep (the gas tank was tucked into the left side of the
> trunk - shades of the Pinto!).
>
> A newer car with some of the same advantages for conversion would be a
> late-
> 80s Chevy Sprint (AKA Suzuki Swift, I think). Some of them weighed in the
> 1300lb range as ICEs, IIRC.
>
> Of course any time you convert a 25-50 year old car, you have hassles with
> getting spare parts, so its practicality as a daily driver is something to
> consider.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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> reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
A 1995-1998 Honda Odyssey is more than perfect for a donor vehicle. It
weighs 3100 lbs and where the rear seat folds down into the floorboard is
already there to place the batteries (not counting on where the gas tank
was).

I am still driving a '98 I've had for years and had a '96 before that.

I am a used car dealer (25yrs+) with a body shop.



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 2:33 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sanity check



On 27 Jan 2011 at 18:34, Sean Korb wrote:



> For something to do 45mile duty every day, a truck might be a better

> fit. Or maybe a '60s compact like a Dart or Falcon.



Very interesting! Hmm, I'm thinking 1967 Dart ... or even more interesting,


1966 Barracuda.



These cars had lots of battery room, and weren't as heavy as you might

think; most were under 3000lb. That's not much more than a modern compact

such as a Corolla or Focus.



In terms of performance, these cars might be similar to a modern small

pickup truck, or perhaps even better. In fact many of today's pickups trace


their fundamental design back about this far. They've changed very little

since the early 1960s.



I've often thought that the 1965 Opel Kadett I drove (ICE) for a while, back


in the 1970s, would have made a good EV conversion candidate. The trunk was


HUGE for such a small car. If I'd put the motor in the driveshaft tunnel, I


would have had lots of battery room front and rear.



It only weighed 1500lb in ICE trim, IIRC, so it would have been relatively

easy to get 50% of the car's weight in batteries, for range in the 60-80

mile neighborhood. I think it could have handled the weight, as it was a

typically overbuilt monocoque design (engineers didn't design to minimum

strength / weight / material using computers in those days).



I suspect that some slightly later models of the Kadett, say 1967-9, would

have much the same advantages. Opel made the trunk less optimal for

batteries in later years as they made the cars look sleeker, but they were

still large and deep (the gas tank was tucked into the left side of the

trunk - shades of the Pinto!).



A newer car with some of the same advantages for conversion would be a late-

80s Chevy Sprint (AKA Suzuki Swift, I think). Some of them weighed in the

1300lb range as ICEs, IIRC.



Of course any time you convert a 25-50 year old car, you have hassles with

getting spare parts, so its practicality as a daily driver is something to

consider.



David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA

EVDL Administrator



= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not

reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my

email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .

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