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Discussion Starter #1
What do they use to tell when a car pulls up to the
drive through order speaker? I thought they were
magnetic sensors in the asphalt. The reason I ask is
the last two times I've gone through the drive through
at the local Burger King they didn't know I was there.
I was thinking maybe some kind of RF sensor listening
for the plug firings but then they would have trouble
sensing diesels as well. Not really earthshaking, but
EV related none the less ;-) The only time I'll go
through a drive through is when I'm driving the EV.
TiM



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Discussion Starter #2
----- Original Message -----
From: "TiM M" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 12:26 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs


> What do they use to tell when a car pulls up to the
> drive through order speaker? I thought they were
> magnetic sensors in the asphalt. The reason I ask is
> the last two times I've gone through the drive through
> at the local Burger King they didn't know I was there.
> I was thinking maybe some kind of RF sensor listening
> for the plug firings but then they would have trouble
> sensing diesels as well. Not really earthshaking, but
> EV related none the less ;-) The only time I'll go
> through a drive through is when I'm driving the EV.
> TiM
>
> Hi EVerybody;

Have wondered HOW the Mc Darnold and Burgler King folks hear ya in an
EV?They always DO, though. Maybe they have a camera to see you pull up, or
just assume there is someone there?

Witchcraft?

Bob
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated
> for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
> http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
>
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Discussion Starter #3
My impression was that drive-throughs use an intercom to
talk to you, so the people will normally hear the engine
of the car pulling up in their headset and know someone
arrived.
They don't hear the EV coming....
I wonder: the Prius should have the same issue?

Cor van de Water
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-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of TiM M
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 9:27 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs

What do they use to tell when a car pulls up to the drive through order speaker? I thought they were magnetic sensors in the asphalt. The reason I ask is the last two times I've gone through the drive through at the local Burger King they didn't know I was there.
I was thinking maybe some kind of RF sensor listening for the plug firings but then they would have trouble sensing diesels as well. Not really earthshaking, but EV related none the less ;-) The only time I'll go through a drive through is when I'm driving the EV.
TiM



____________________________________________________________________________________
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow

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Discussion Starter #4
Cor van de Water wrote:
> My impression was that drive-throughs use an intercom to
> talk to you, so the people will normally hear the engine
> of the car pulling up in their headset and know someone
> arrived.
> They don't hear the EV coming....

I've seen some discussion as to whether electric / hybrid cars need some
form of noise-maker for urban environments where pedestrians are used to
being able to hear traffic, including the visually impaired.

I've been toying with the idea of outfitting my (future) EV with
speakers. And some soundtracks. Like hoof beats. Sleigh bells. Tie
Fighters. I suppose dog panting might be taken amiss. X-34
Landspeeder. Etc., etc.

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Discussion Starter #6
I worked in fast food 6 years ago, and even then they had sensors; the
intercom would automatically turn on when a car pulled up. I think the
sensors are based on magnetic fields, but I don't know any specifics.

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Discussion Starter #7
I just found this info; I'm guessing drive-thru sensors are similar to
traffic light sensors:

http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/loopdet.shtml
http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/looptips.shtml

-Morgan LaMoore

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Discussion Starter #8
Wow. Cool thread.

I should note that Taco Bueno had no trouble detecting my EV last night.
On the other hand, it wouldn't have mattered much, as in addition to
whatever sensor they have there, they also have a pushbutton, which
comes in very handy when I'm on the unicycle.

I always just figured they had some sort of weight sensor. But then,
that's also what I figured the traffic-light loop sensors were, which
clearly is wrong, as Morgan's links suggest. A quick search turned up
this abstract:
http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/signals/detection.htm which goes into somewhat more detail, and has specific recommendations for bycicles. Apparently the loops are supposed to be able to detect anything metal of high enough mass.

So...they ought to detect an EV. I would be darn surprised if a fast
food joint was really expecting their drive-through employees to listen
for engine sounds. Almost as surprised as if they were using RF to
detect spark plugs going off ;-)

Hunter

Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> I just found this info; I'm guessing drive-thru sensors are similar to
> traffic light sensors:
>
> http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/loopdet.shtml
> http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/looptips.shtml
>
> -Morgan LaMoore
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Discussion Starter #9
So I went back to that same Taco Bueno this morning for breakfast on my
unicycle. (It's really the only fast food in unicycle range, or the
range of my current EV, for that matter) This time I looked for the cuts
in the concrete. They looked like very small versions of the simple (not
quadrupole) induction loops. By very small I mean about 1'x3', whereas I
think I read DOT spec was 60' long!

Anyway, according to the article I linked below the small loops should
be able to detect much smaller conductors. In fact, I'm pretty sure it
detected my unicycle; I was standing outside the pickup window (not the
order window...there were loops both places) where I could hear inside,
and when I rolled the wheel on the pavement cuts I could hear beeping
inside. Could have just been a coincidence with a fryer going off or
something, but I did it a few times and I think the guy got annoyed by
it. Next time for a better test I'll ride up to the order window (where
they can't see me) and just roll the wheel around instead of pushing the
button and see if they notice.

Obviously, different restaraunts may have totally different setups. Your
Whr/mi may vary.

Hunter


Hunter Cook wrote:
> Wow. Cool thread.
>
> I should note that Taco Bueno had no trouble detecting my EV last night.
> On the other hand, it wouldn't have mattered much, as in addition to
> whatever sensor they have there, they also have a pushbutton, which
> comes in very handy when I'm on the unicycle.
>
> I always just figured they had some sort of weight sensor. But then,
> that's also what I figured the traffic-light loop sensors were, which
> clearly is wrong, as Morgan's links suggest. A quick search turned up
> this abstract:
> http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/signals/detection.htm which goes into somewhat more detail, and has specific recommendations for bycicles. Apparently the loops are supposed to be able to detect anything metal of high enough mass.
>
> So...they ought to detect an EV. I would be darn surprised if a fast
> food joint was really expecting their drive-through employees to listen
> for engine sounds. Almost as surprised as if they were using RF to
> detect spark plugs going off ;-)
>
> Hunter
>
> On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 04:24 -0500, Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> > I just found this info; I'm guessing drive-thru sensors are similar to
> > traffic light sensors:
> >
> > http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/loopdet.shtml
> > http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/looptips.shtml
> >
> > -Morgan LaMoore
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Discussion Starter #10
Oh no, that is another calculation that has to make to run a vehicle. How
many taco's does it take to go a mile?

To power a EV from a coal generation plant, the total cost should be use.
The energy to mine the ore to make the steel, to make the steel plants, to
make the machines to mine the coal, the delivery of the coal, the building
of the power plant, the delivery of the energy and then the cost of the
energy.

I do not use any of that except for the delivery and cost of the energy. A
lot of people ask me how my EV works. I tell them it runs on solar energy
and gravity, which is the indirect energy that runs the five hydro dams we
have here in Great Falls, Montana.

Roland




----- Original Message -----
From: "Hunter Cook" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 7:10 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs


> So I went back to that same Taco Bueno this morning for breakfast on my
> unicycle. (It's really the only fast food in unicycle range, or the
> range of my current EV, for that matter) This time I looked for the cuts
> in the concrete. They looked like very small versions of the simple (not
> quadrupole) induction loops. By very small I mean about 1'x3', whereas I
> think I read DOT spec was 60' long!
>
> Anyway, according to the article I linked below the small loops should
> be able to detect much smaller conductors. In fact, I'm pretty sure it
> detected my unicycle; I was standing outside the pickup window (not the
> order window...there were loops both places) where I could hear inside,
> and when I rolled the wheel on the pavement cuts I could hear beeping
> inside. Could have just been a coincidence with a fryer going off or
> something, but I did it a few times and I think the guy got annoyed by
> it. Next time for a better test I'll ride up to the order window (where
> they can't see me) and just roll the wheel around instead of pushing the
> button and see if they notice.
>
> Obviously, different restaraunts may have totally different setups. Your
> Whr/mi may vary.
>
> Hunter
>
>
>
Hunter Cook wrote:
> > Wow. Cool thread.
> >
> > I should note that Taco Bueno had no trouble detecting my EV last night.
> > On the other hand, it wouldn't have mattered much, as in addition to
> > whatever sensor they have there, they also have a pushbutton, which
> > comes in very handy when I'm on the unicycle.
> >
> > I always just figured they had some sort of weight sensor. But then,
> > that's also what I figured the traffic-light loop sensors were, which
> > clearly is wrong, as Morgan's links suggest. A quick search turned up
> > this abstract:
> > http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/signals/detection.htm
> > which goes into somewhat more detail, and has specific recommendations
> > for bycicles. Apparently the loops are supposed to be able to detect
> > anything metal of high enough mass.
> >
> > So...they ought to detect an EV. I would be darn surprised if a fast
> > food joint was really expecting their drive-through employees to listen
> > for engine sounds. Almost as surprised as if they were using RF to
> > detect spark plugs going off ;-)
> >
> > Hunter
> >
> > On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 04:24 -0500, Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> > > I just found this info; I'm guessing drive-thru sensors are similar to
> > > traffic light sensors:
> > >
> > > http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/loopdet.shtml
> > > http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/looptips.shtml
> > >
> > > -Morgan LaMoore
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For subscription options, see
> > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter #11
Roland-

I can eat about 2 tacos per mile in the EV. More on the unicycle, less
in my ICE car.

Hope that helps...

Hunter

Roland Wiench wrote:
> Oh no, that is another calculation that has to make to run a vehicle. How
> many taco's does it take to go a mile?
>
> To power a EV from a coal generation plant, the total cost should be use.
> The energy to mine the ore to make the steel, to make the steel plants, to
> make the machines to mine the coal, the delivery of the coal, the building
> of the power plant, the delivery of the energy and then the cost of the
> energy.
>
> I do not use any of that except for the delivery and cost of the energy. A
> lot of people ask me how my EV works. I tell them it runs on solar energy
> and gravity, which is the indirect energy that runs the five hydro dams we
> have here in Great Falls, Montana.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hunter Cook" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 7:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs
>
>
> > So I went back to that same Taco Bueno this morning for breakfast on my
> > unicycle. (It's really the only fast food in unicycle range, or the
> > range of my current EV, for that matter) This time I looked for the cuts
> > in the concrete. They looked like very small versions of the simple (not
> > quadrupole) induction loops. By very small I mean about 1'x3', whereas I
> > think I read DOT spec was 60' long!
> >
> > Anyway, according to the article I linked below the small loops should
> > be able to detect much smaller conductors. In fact, I'm pretty sure it
> > detected my unicycle; I was standing outside the pickup window (not the
> > order window...there were loops both places) where I could hear inside,
> > and when I rolled the wheel on the pavement cuts I could hear beeping
> > inside. Could have just been a coincidence with a fryer going off or
> > something, but I did it a few times and I think the guy got annoyed by
> > it. Next time for a better test I'll ride up to the order window (where
> > they can't see me) and just roll the wheel around instead of pushing the
> > button and see if they notice.
> >
> > Obviously, different restaraunts may have totally different setups. Your
> > Whr/mi may vary.
> >
> > Hunter
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 05:57 -0500, Hunter Cook wrote:
> > > Wow. Cool thread.
> > >
> > > I should note that Taco Bueno had no trouble detecting my EV last night.
> > > On the other hand, it wouldn't have mattered much, as in addition to
> > > whatever sensor they have there, they also have a pushbutton, which
> > > comes in very handy when I'm on the unicycle.
> > >
> > > I always just figured they had some sort of weight sensor. But then,
> > > that's also what I figured the traffic-light loop sensors were, which
> > > clearly is wrong, as Morgan's links suggest. A quick search turned up
> > > this abstract:
> > > http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/signals/detection.htm
> > > which goes into somewhat more detail, and has specific recommendations
> > > for bycicles. Apparently the loops are supposed to be able to detect
> > > anything metal of high enough mass.
> > >
> > > So...they ought to detect an EV. I would be darn surprised if a fast
> > > food joint was really expecting their drive-through employees to listen
> > > for engine sounds. Almost as surprised as if they were using RF to
> > > detect spark plugs going off ;-)
> > >
> > > Hunter
> > >
> > > On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 04:24 -0500, Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> > > > I just found this info; I'm guessing drive-thru sensors are similar to
> > > > traffic light sensors:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/loopdet.shtml
> > > > http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/looptips.shtml
> > > >
> > > > -Morgan LaMoore
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > For subscription options, see
> > > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For subscription options, see
> > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Discussion Starter #12
I wndoer if you taped a small magnet to your unicucle if it would
distrub the induction loop in the sensor enough to make a small metal
mass detectable.
Hell my small two seater car is often not detected at street lights.

Hunter Cook wrote:
> Wow. Cool thread.
>
> I should note that Taco Bueno had no trouble detecting my EV last
> night.
> On the other hand, it wouldn't have mattered much, as in addition to
> whatever sensor they have there, they also have a pushbutton, which
> comes in very handy when I'm on the unicycle.
>
> I always just figured they had some sort of weight sensor. But then,
> that's also what I figured the traffic-light loop sensors were, which
> clearly is wrong, as Morgan's links suggest. A quick search turned up
> this abstract:
> http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/signals/detection.htm
> which goes into somewhat more detail, and has specific recommendations
> for bycicles. Apparently the loops are supposed to be able to detect
> anything metal of high enough mass.
>
> So...they ought to detect an EV. I would be darn surprised if a fast
> food joint was really expecting their drive-through employees to listen
> for engine sounds. Almost as surprised as if they were using RF to
> detect spark plugs going off ;-)
>
> Hunter
>
> On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 04:24 -0500, Morgan LaMoore wrote:
>> I just found this info; I'm guessing drive-thru sensors are similar to
>> traffic light sensors:
>>
>> http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/loopdet.shtml
>> http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/looptips.shtml
>>
>> -Morgan LaMoore
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Discussion Starter #13
People have said that for years. They sell the magnet for motorcycles
to do just that. Most don't work. I thought they were actually a fiber
of light that gets pinched when weight is on the slab.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of GWMobile
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 12:31
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs

I wndoer if you taped a small magnet to your unicucle if it would
distrub the induction loop in the sensor enough to make a small metal
mass detectable.
Hell my small two seater car is often not detected at street lights.

Hunter Cook wrote:
> Wow. Cool thread.
>
> I should note that Taco Bueno had no trouble detecting my EV last
> night.
> On the other hand, it wouldn't have mattered much, as in addition to
> whatever sensor they have there, they also have a pushbutton, which
> comes in very handy when I'm on the unicycle.
>
> I always just figured they had some sort of weight sensor. But then,
> that's also what I figured the traffic-light loop sensors were, which
> clearly is wrong, as Morgan's links suggest. A quick search turned up
> this abstract:
> http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/signals/detection
> .htm which goes into somewhat more detail, and has specific
> recommendations for bycicles. Apparently the loops are supposed to be
> able to detect anything metal of high enough mass.
>
> So...they ought to detect an EV. I would be darn surprised if a fast
> food joint was really expecting their drive-through employees to
> listen for engine sounds. Almost as surprised as if they were using RF

> to detect spark plugs going off ;-)
>
> Hunter
>
> On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 04:24 -0500, Morgan LaMoore wrote:
>> I just found this info; I'm guessing drive-thru sensors are similar
>> to traffic light sensors:
>>
>> http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/loopdet.shtml
>> http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/looptips.shtml
>>
>> -Morgan LaMoore
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.

www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.

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Discussion Starter #14
Some motorcyclists try this. I believe the consensus is that you need
very strong magnets.
--
Martin K


GWMobile wrote:
> I wndoer if you taped a small magnet to your unicucle if it would
> distrub the induction loop in the sensor enough to make a small metal
> mass detectable.
> Hell my small two seater car is often not detected at street lights.
>
>

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Discussion Starter #15
Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G wrote:
> People have said that for years. They sell the magnet for motorcycles
> to do just that. Most don't work. I thought they were actually a fiber
> of light that gets pinched when weight is on the slab.

The usual traffic sensor is a loop of wire buried in the pavement. It
forms an inductor. The circuit measures the inductance of this loop.
When a vehicle drives over it, the iron and steel in its chassis
increases the loop's inductance. This is sensed to trigger the "vehicle
present" indicator.

A permanent magnet won't have any effect, except that due to the small
amount of iron it adds. Water, snow, wet leaves etc. only have a trivial
effect. Interestingly, conductive non-ferrous metals like copper or
aluminum *decrease* the inductance of the loop. My old Comutavan had
plenty of iron, but had even more aluminum and so did not trigger these
vehicle detectors.

If you need something really small and light to trigger it, you could
use a loop of wire with a variable capacitor across the ends. You'd have
to tune it to a lower frequency than the traffic sensor was using. When
your coil passed over theirs, it would pull their frequency down to
trigger it. Unfortunately, this method only works for that certain
make/model of traffic detector. There is no "standard" frequency for
these things, so they vary from place to place.

[When I was in college, they had a traffic sensor to control the gate to
enter the parking lot. As a prank, we made a loop out of coat hanger
wire with a capacitor across the end, and tuned it to be detected. The
loop was duct taped to the gate itself. Every time the gate went down,
it detected a car, and opened it. Now it didn't see a car, and closed
the gate, which went back up again, etc. The gate went up-down-up-down
until the car counter thought the lot was full, at which time it stopped
letting more people in. People were confronted with an empty lot and a
sign that said "Full"!]

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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Discussion Starter #16
well they could be using a reflective light emitting relay like is used on production lines . however the most likely device is a proximity sensor .
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Hart<mailto:[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs


Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G wrote:
> People have said that for years. They sell the magnet for motorcycles
> to do just that. Most don't work. I thought they were actually a fiber
> of light that gets pinched when weight is on the slab.

The usual traffic sensor is a loop of wire buried in the pavement. It
forms an inductor. The circuit measures the inductance of this loop.
When a vehicle drives over it, the iron and steel in its chassis
increases the loop's inductance. This is sensed to trigger the "vehicle
present" indicator.

A permanent magnet won't have any effect, except that due to the small
amount of iron it adds. Water, snow, wet leaves etc. only have a trivial
effect. Interestingly, conductive non-ferrous metals like copper or
aluminum *decrease* the inductance of the loop. My old Comutavan had
plenty of iron, but had even more aluminum and so did not trigger these
vehicle detectors.

If you need something really small and light to trigger it, you could
use a loop of wire with a variable capacitor across the ends. You'd have
to tune it to a lower frequency than the traffic sensor was using. When
your coil passed over theirs, it would pull their frequency down to
trigger it. Unfortunately, this method only works for that certain
make/model of traffic detector. There is no "standard" frequency for
these things, so they vary from place to place.

[When I was in college, they had a traffic sensor to control the gate to
enter the parking lot. As a prank, we made a loop out of coat hanger
wire with a capacitor across the end, and tuned it to be detected. The
loop was duct taped to the gate itself. Every time the gate went down,
it detected a car, and opened it. Now it didn't see a car, and closed
the gate, which went back up again, etc. The gate went up-down-up-down
until the car counter thought the lot was full, at which time it stopped
letting more people in. People were confronted with an empty lot and a
sign that said "Full"!]

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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Discussion Starter #17
What about methane emissions from your unicycle's power plant after
refueling at Taco Bell? 8^)

Dave

>From: Hunter Cook <[email protected]>
>Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs
>Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 09:21:00 -0500
>
>Roland-
>
>I can eat about 2 tacos per mile in the EV. More on the unicycle, less
>in my ICE car.
>
>Hope that helps...
>
>Hunter
>
>
Roland Wiench wrote:
> > Oh no, that is another calculation that has to make to run a vehicle.
>How
> > many taco's does it take to go a mile?
> >
> > To power a EV from a coal generation plant, the total cost should be
>use.
> > The energy to mine the ore to make the steel, to make the steel plants,
>to
> > make the machines to mine the coal, the delivery of the coal, the
>building
> > of the power plant, the delivery of the energy and then the cost of the
> > energy.
> >
> > I do not use any of that except for the delivery and cost of the energy.
>A
> > lot of people ask me how my EV works. I tell them it runs on solar
>energy
> > and gravity, which is the indirect energy that runs the five hydro dams
>we
> > have here in Great Falls, Montana.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Hunter Cook" <[email protected]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 7:10 AM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs
> >
> >
> > > So I went back to that same Taco Bueno this morning for breakfast on
>my
> > > unicycle. (It's really the only fast food in unicycle range, or the
> > > range of my current EV, for that matter) This time I looked for the
>cuts
> > > in the concrete. They looked like very small versions of the simple
>(not
> > > quadrupole) induction loops. By very small I mean about 1'x3', whereas
>I
> > > think I read DOT spec was 60' long!
> > >
> > > Anyway, according to the article I linked below the small loops should
> > > be able to detect much smaller conductors. In fact, I'm pretty sure it
> > > detected my unicycle; I was standing outside the pickup window (not
>the
> > > order window...there were loops both places) where I could hear
>inside,
> > > and when I rolled the wheel on the pavement cuts I could hear beeping
> > > inside. Could have just been a coincidence with a fryer going off or
> > > something, but I did it a few times and I think the guy got annoyed by
> > > it. Next time for a better test I'll ride up to the order window
>(where
> > > they can't see me) and just roll the wheel around instead of pushing
>the
> > > button and see if they notice.
> > >
> > > Obviously, different restaraunts may have totally different setups.
>Your
> > > Whr/mi may vary.
> > >
> > > Hunter
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 05:57 -0500, Hunter Cook wrote:
> > > > Wow. Cool thread.
> > > >
> > > > I should note that Taco Bueno had no trouble detecting my EV last
>night.
> > > > On the other hand, it wouldn't have mattered much, as in addition to
> > > > whatever sensor they have there, they also have a pushbutton, which
> > > > comes in very handy when I'm on the unicycle.
> > > >
> > > > I always just figured they had some sort of weight sensor. But then,
> > > > that's also what I figured the traffic-light loop sensors were,
>which
> > > > clearly is wrong, as Morgan's links suggest. A quick search turned
>up
> > > > this abstract:
> > > >
>http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/signals/detection.htm
> > > > which goes into somewhat more detail, and has specific
>recommendations
> > > > for bycicles. Apparently the loops are supposed to be able to detect
> > > > anything metal of high enough mass.
> > > >
> > > > So...they ought to detect an EV. I would be darn surprised if a fast
> > > > food joint was really expecting their drive-through employees to
>listen
> > > > for engine sounds. Almost as surprised as if they were using RF to
> > > > detect spark plugs going off ;-)
> > > >
> > > > Hunter
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 04:24 -0500, Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> > > > > I just found this info; I'm guessing drive-thru sensors are
>similar to
> > > > > traffic light sensors:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/loopdet.shtml
> > > > > http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/looptips.shtml
> > > > >
> > > > > -Morgan LaMoore
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > For subscription options, see
> > > > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > For subscription options, see
> > > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For subscription options, see
> > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Discussion Starter #18
They're bad.

On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 23:15 +0000, Dave Davidson wrote:
> What about methane emissions from your unicycle's power plant after
> refueling at Taco Bell? 8^)
>
> Dave
>
> >From: Hunter Cook <[email protected]>
> >Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> >To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> >Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs
> >Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 09:21:00 -0500
> >
> >Roland-
> >
> >I can eat about 2 tacos per mile in the EV. More on the unicycle, less
> >in my ICE car.
> >
> >Hope that helps...
> >
> >Hunter
> >
> >On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 08:03 -0600, Roland Wiench wrote:
> > > Oh no, that is another calculation that has to make to run a vehicle.
> >How
> > > many taco's does it take to go a mile?
> > >
> > > To power a EV from a coal generation plant, the total cost should be
> >use.
> > > The energy to mine the ore to make the steel, to make the steel plants,
> >to
> > > make the machines to mine the coal, the delivery of the coal, the
> >building
> > > of the power plant, the delivery of the energy and then the cost of the
> > > energy.
> > >
> > > I do not use any of that except for the delivery and cost of the energy.
> >A
> > > lot of people ask me how my EV works. I tell them it runs on solar
> >energy
> > > and gravity, which is the indirect energy that runs the five hydro dams
> >we
> > > have here in Great Falls, Montana.
> > >
> > > Roland
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Hunter Cook" <[email protected]>
> > > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 7:10 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs
> > >
> > >
> > > > So I went back to that same Taco Bueno this morning for breakfast on
> >my
> > > > unicycle. (It's really the only fast food in unicycle range, or the
> > > > range of my current EV, for that matter) This time I looked for the
> >cuts
> > > > in the concrete. They looked like very small versions of the simple
> >(not
> > > > quadrupole) induction loops. By very small I mean about 1'x3', whereas
> >I
> > > > think I read DOT spec was 60' long!
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, according to the article I linked below the small loops should
> > > > be able to detect much smaller conductors. In fact, I'm pretty sure it
> > > > detected my unicycle; I was standing outside the pickup window (not
> >the
> > > > order window...there were loops both places) where I could hear
> >inside,
> > > > and when I rolled the wheel on the pavement cuts I could hear beeping
> > > > inside. Could have just been a coincidence with a fryer going off or
> > > > something, but I did it a few times and I think the guy got annoyed by
> > > > it. Next time for a better test I'll ride up to the order window
> >(where
> > > > they can't see me) and just roll the wheel around instead of pushing
> >the
> > > > button and see if they notice.
> > > >
> > > > Obviously, different restaraunts may have totally different setups.
> >Your
> > > > Whr/mi may vary.
> > > >
> > > > Hunter
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 05:57 -0500, Hunter Cook wrote:
> > > > > Wow. Cool thread.
> > > > >
> > > > > I should note that Taco Bueno had no trouble detecting my EV last
> >night.
> > > > > On the other hand, it wouldn't have mattered much, as in addition to
> > > > > whatever sensor they have there, they also have a pushbutton, which
> > > > > comes in very handy when I'm on the unicycle.
> > > > >
> > > > > I always just figured they had some sort of weight sensor. But then,
> > > > > that's also what I figured the traffic-light loop sensors were,
> >which
> > > > > clearly is wrong, as Morgan's links suggest. A quick search turned
> >up
> > > > > this abstract:
> > > > >
> >http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/signals/detection.htm
> > > > > which goes into somewhat more detail, and has specific
> >recommendations
> > > > > for bycicles. Apparently the loops are supposed to be able to detect
> > > > > anything metal of high enough mass.
> > > > >
> > > > > So...they ought to detect an EV. I would be darn surprised if a fast
> > > > > food joint was really expecting their drive-through employees to
> >listen
> > > > > for engine sounds. Almost as surprised as if they were using RF to
> > > > > detect spark plugs going off ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Hunter
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 04:24 -0500, Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> > > > > > I just found this info; I'm guessing drive-thru sensors are
> >similar to
> > > > > > traffic light sensors:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/loopdet.shtml
> > > > > > http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/looptips.shtml
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Morgan LaMoore
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > For subscription options, see
> > > > > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > For subscription options, see
> > > > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > For subscription options, see
> > > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For subscription options, see
> > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >For subscription options, see
> >http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: A word scramble
> challenge with star power.
> http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_hotmailtextlink2_oct
>
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Speaking of bad emissions ( and very fun threads) , try this science
question my seventh grade daughter got as tonight's homework; "How
fast is electricity?" I told her to say that for AC average is 0 mph
and to let me know if she gets marked down. The next question was "How
fast is sound?" My answer...Mach 1.
Hunter Cook wrote:

> They're bad.
>
> On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 23:15 +0000, Dave Davidson wrote:
>> What about methane emissions from your unicycle's power plant after
>> refueling at Taco Bell? 8^)
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>> From: Hunter Cook <[email protected]>
>>> Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
>>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs
>>> Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 09:21:00 -0500
>>>
>>> Roland-
>>>
>>> I can eat about 2 tacos per mile in the EV. More on the unicycle,
>>> less
>>> in my ICE car.
>>>
>>> Hope that helps...
>>>
>>> Hunter
>>>
>>> On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 08:03 -0600, Roland Wiench wrote:
>>>> Oh no, that is another calculation that has to make to run a
>>>> vehicle.
>>> How
>>>> many taco's does it take to go a mile?
>>>>
>>>> To power a EV from a coal generation plant, the total cost should be
>>> use.
>>>> The energy to mine the ore to make the steel, to make the steel
>>>> plants,
>>> to
>>>> make the machines to mine the coal, the delivery of the coal, the
>>> building
>>>> of the power plant, the delivery of the energy and then the cost of
>>>> the
>>>> energy.
>>>>
>>>> I do not use any of that except for the delivery and cost of the
>>>> energy.
>>> A
>>>> lot of people ask me how my EV works. I tell them it runs on solar
>>> energy
>>>> and gravity, which is the indirect energy that runs the five hydro
>>>> dams
>>> we
>>>> have here in Great Falls, Montana.
>>>>
>>>> Roland
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Hunter Cook" <[email protected]>
>>>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 7:10 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> So I went back to that same Taco Bueno this morning for breakfast
>>>>> on
>>> my
>>>>> unicycle. (It's really the only fast food in unicycle range, or the
>>>>> range of my current EV, for that matter) This time I looked for the
>>> cuts
>>>>> in the concrete. They looked like very small versions of the simple
>>> (not
>>>>> quadrupole) induction loops. By very small I mean about 1'x3',
>>>>> whereas
>>> I
>>>>> think I read DOT spec was 60' long!
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, according to the article I linked below the small loops
>>>>> should
>>>>> be able to detect much smaller conductors. In fact, I'm pretty
>>>>> sure it
>>>>> detected my unicycle; I was standing outside the pickup window (not
>>> the
>>>>> order window...there were loops both places) where I could hear
>>> inside,
>>>>> and when I rolled the wheel on the pavement cuts I could hear
>>>>> beeping
>>>>> inside. Could have just been a coincidence with a fryer going off
>>>>> or
>>>>> something, but I did it a few times and I think the guy got
>>>>> annoyed by
>>>>> it. Next time for a better test I'll ride up to the order window
>>> (where
>>>>> they can't see me) and just roll the wheel around instead of
>>>>> pushing
>>> the
>>>>> button and see if they notice.
>>>>>
>>>>> Obviously, different restaraunts may have totally different setups.
>>> Your
>>>>> Whr/mi may vary.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hunter
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 05:57 -0500, Hunter Cook wrote:
>>>>>> Wow. Cool thread.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I should note that Taco Bueno had no trouble detecting my EV last
>>> night.
>>>>>> On the other hand, it wouldn't have mattered much, as in addition
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> whatever sensor they have there, they also have a pushbutton,
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> comes in very handy when I'm on the unicycle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I always just figured they had some sort of weight sensor. But
>>>>>> then,
>>>>>> that's also what I figured the traffic-light loop sensors were,
>>> which
>>>>>> clearly is wrong, as Morgan's links suggest. A quick search turned
>>> up
>>>>>> this abstract:
>>>>>>
>>> http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/signals/
>>> detection.htm
>>>>>> which goes into somewhat more detail, and has specific
>>> recommendations
>>>>>> for bycicles. Apparently the loops are supposed to be able to
>>>>>> detect
>>>>>> anything metal of high enough mass.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So...they ought to detect an EV. I would be darn surprised if a
>>>>>> fast
>>>>>> food joint was really expecting their drive-through employees to
>>> listen
>>>>>> for engine sounds. Almost as surprised as if they were using RF to
>>>>>> detect spark plugs going off ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hunter
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 04:24 -0500, Morgan LaMoore wrote:
>>>>>>> I just found this info; I'm guessing drive-thru sensors are
>>> similar to
>>>>>>> traffic light sensors:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/loopdet.shtml
>>>>>>> http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/looptips.shtml
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Morgan LaMoore
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> For subscription options, see
>>>>>>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> For subscription options, see
>>>>>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> For subscription options, see
>>>>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> For subscription options, see
>>>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> For subscription options, see
>>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: A word scramble
>> challenge with star power.
>> http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?
>> icid=starshuffle_hotmailtextlink2_oct
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
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>

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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
I remember a physics problem I had where I had to calculate how long
it took an electron to travel from a wall socket to a lightbulb in a
lamp. The distance was 2m. I don't remember what the time was but to
say the average speed of AC is 0mph isn't exactly correct. It is,
however, quite slow, IIRC.

David Nelson

On 10/2/07, Bruce Williford <[email protected]> wrote:
> Speaking of bad emissions ( and very fun threads) , try this science
> question my seventh grade daughter got as tonight's homework; "How
> fast is electricity?" I told her to say that for AC average is 0 mph
> and to let me know if she gets marked down. The next question was "How
> fast is sound?" My answer...Mach 1.
>
Hunter Cook wrote:
>
> > They're bad.
> >
> > On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 23:15 +0000, Dave Davidson wrote:
> >> What about methane emissions from your unicycle's power plant after
> >> refueling at Taco Bell? 8^)
> >>
> >> Dave
> >>
> >>> From: Hunter Cook <[email protected]>
> >>> Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> >>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> >>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs
> >>> Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 09:21:00 -0500
> >>>
> >>> Roland-
> >>>
> >>> I can eat about 2 tacos per mile in the EV. More on the unicycle,
> >>> less
> >>> in my ICE car.
> >>>
> >>> Hope that helps...
> >>>
> >>> Hunter
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 08:03 -0600, Roland Wiench wrote:
> >>>> Oh no, that is another calculation that has to make to run a
> >>>> vehicle.
> >>> How
> >>>> many taco's does it take to go a mile?
> >>>>
> >>>> To power a EV from a coal generation plant, the total cost should be
> >>> use.
> >>>> The energy to mine the ore to make the steel, to make the steel
> >>>> plants,
> >>> to
> >>>> make the machines to mine the coal, the delivery of the coal, the
> >>> building
> >>>> of the power plant, the delivery of the energy and then the cost of
> >>>> the
> >>>> energy.
> >>>>
> >>>> I do not use any of that except for the delivery and cost of the
> >>>> energy.
> >>> A
> >>>> lot of people ask me how my EV works. I tell them it runs on solar
> >>> energy
> >>>> and gravity, which is the indirect energy that runs the five hydro
> >>>> dams
> >>> we
> >>>> have here in Great Falls, Montana.
> >>>>
> >>>> Roland
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Hunter Cook" <[email protected]>
> >>>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 7:10 AM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> So I went back to that same Taco Bueno this morning for breakfast
> >>>>> on
> >>> my
> >>>>> unicycle. (It's really the only fast food in unicycle range, or the
> >>>>> range of my current EV, for that matter) This time I looked for the
> >>> cuts
> >>>>> in the concrete. They looked like very small versions of the simple
> >>> (not
> >>>>> quadrupole) induction loops. By very small I mean about 1'x3',
> >>>>> whereas
> >>> I
> >>>>> think I read DOT spec was 60' long!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Anyway, according to the article I linked below the small loops
> >>>>> should
> >>>>> be able to detect much smaller conductors. In fact, I'm pretty
> >>>>> sure it
> >>>>> detected my unicycle; I was standing outside the pickup window (not
> >>> the
> >>>>> order window...there were loops both places) where I could hear
> >>> inside,
> >>>>> and when I rolled the wheel on the pavement cuts I could hear
> >>>>> beeping
> >>>>> inside. Could have just been a coincidence with a fryer going off
> >>>>> or
> >>>>> something, but I did it a few times and I think the guy got
> >>>>> annoyed by
> >>>>> it. Next time for a better test I'll ride up to the order window
> >>> (where
> >>>>> they can't see me) and just roll the wheel around instead of
> >>>>> pushing
> >>> the
> >>>>> button and see if they notice.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Obviously, different restaraunts may have totally different setups.
> >>> Your
> >>>>> Whr/mi may vary.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hunter
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 05:57 -0500, Hunter Cook wrote:
> >>>>>> Wow. Cool thread.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I should note that Taco Bueno had no trouble detecting my EV last
> >>> night.
> >>>>>> On the other hand, it wouldn't have mattered much, as in addition
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>> whatever sensor they have there, they also have a pushbutton,
> >>>>>> which
> >>>>>> comes in very handy when I'm on the unicycle.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I always just figured they had some sort of weight sensor. But
> >>>>>> then,
> >>>>>> that's also what I figured the traffic-light loop sensors were,
> >>> which
> >>>>>> clearly is wrong, as Morgan's links suggest. A quick search turned
> >>> up
> >>>>>> this abstract:
> >>>>>>
> >>> http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/signals/
> >>> detection.htm
> >>>>>> which goes into somewhat more detail, and has specific
> >>> recommendations
> >>>>>> for bycicles. Apparently the loops are supposed to be able to
> >>>>>> detect
> >>>>>> anything metal of high enough mass.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So...they ought to detect an EV. I would be darn surprised if a
> >>>>>> fast
> >>>>>> food joint was really expecting their drive-through employees to
> >>> listen
> >>>>>> for engine sounds. Almost as surprised as if they were using RF to
> >>>>>> detect spark plugs going off ;-)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hunter
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 04:24 -0500, Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> >>>>>>> I just found this info; I'm guessing drive-thru sensors are
> >>> similar to
> >>>>>>> traffic light sensors:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/loopdet.shtml
> >>>>>>> http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/looptips.shtml
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -Morgan LaMoore
> >>>>>>>
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