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Discussion Starter #1
I have been lurking and reading posts on the mailing lists for a while
and would like to build a small project with my two sons. I am not ready
to convert my car just yet, but I was thinking of converting a bicycle
to a hybrid electric/peddled machine. My question for the group is what
do I need to build a project on the cheep side. How big of a motor is
needed, how much battery power, and what type of controller. It would be
great if the bike would also carry my 200lb self the three miles each
way to and from work without needing a recharge. Any advice would be
appreciated.

Thanks,

Jerry

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Discussion Starter #2
Jerry,

There are many EV bikes in the EV Album,
you can check their specs.
Also EV conversion kits are available for bikes.

Usually a 300W motor, controller, throttle and
a box for 2 12V 12Ah UPS style batteries for a
24V system. They are spec'ed to move a bike
up to 20 miles, though it is healty and good for range
to pedal along with it.

If you install the motor sprocket onto the spokes
of the rear wheel, then the pedaling is not affected
and you can choose to ride with or without moving
your feet.

See some pics of my E-bike on the EV Album:
http://evalbum.com/720

Cor van de Water
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Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
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-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Owens, Jerry
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 12:55 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] Small first time EV project suggestions.

I have been lurking and reading posts on the mailing lists for a while and would like to build a small project with my two sons. I am not ready to convert my car just yet, but I was thinking of converting a bicycle to a hybrid electric/peddled machine. My question for the group is what do I need to build a project on the cheep side. How big of a motor is needed, how much battery power, and what type of controller. It would be great if the bike would also carry my 200lb self the three miles each way to and from work without needing a recharge. Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Jerry

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Discussion Starter #4
I haven't done any but the most elegant way I've seen is a front wheel
with built in hub motor. that way very little has to be modified. I
don't know who makes them but google for electric bicycle hub motor
might find it.
for battery, if it's around 30-36v, I think the idea of using dewalt 36v
packs is very elegant. it's long lived high power pack and can be gotten
for around 100$ on ebay new. they weigh less than lead acid for the
energy they hold and a single pack might well get you to work and back.
rough guess is 8km range. if not just plug in a spare : ) to recharge
you can use the standard dewalt chargers. I'm not aware of anyone who've
tried that approach but I think it would give the EV grin to use a
battery from a power tool : )
but lead acid can work too, just 3-4 times heavier

youtube for electric bicycles can be inspirational too
like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcOJZiBYA2I

ah I spoke too soon. this guy use dewalt packs :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKKvP9wWrlY

each pack can do more than 3000watt. a pro biker can do maybe 600 if I
recall correctly

Dan


Owens, Jerry wrote:
> I have been lurking and reading posts on the mailing lists for a while
> and would like to build a small project with my two sons. I am not ready
> to convert my car just yet, but I was thinking of converting a bicycle
> to a hybrid electric/peddled machine. My question for the group is what
> do I need to build a project on the cheep side. How big of a motor is
> needed, how much battery power, and what type of controller. It would be
> great if the bike would also carry my 200lb self the three miles each
> way to and from work without needing a recharge. Any advice would be
> appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jerry
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>

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Discussion Starter #6
oooh sour grapes from the dubester : ) be prepared to be bitch slapped
for your insolence : )

quick googling indicates that typical human biking power is around
80watt going 12mph. efficiency aside that would be about an hour with a
dewalt pack right? let's say we get only half, how long is that... : )
this ebike: http://www.wheelzofcelebration.com/products.html with a
360Wh pack (little over 4 dewalt packs) claims towards 25 mile range.
how much is a quarter of that? is it 1 mile? : )

he shoots, he scores : )

Dan

Bill Dube wrote:
> Almost nothing in Dan's post below is correct.
>

it doesn't have to be power optimal to be the best solution

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Discussion Starter #7
A good athelete can *produce* up to about 1 HP for 30 seconds and a healthy non-athelete can *produce* 1 HP for about 12 seconds.

A good athelete can *sustain* up to about 0.4 Hp for 8 hours and a healthy non-athelete can *sustain* up about 0.1 Hp for 8 hours.

So compared to the average healthy non-athelete the Dewalt 36V pack seems to have way more power but about 8 times less capacity.

I saw a BionX http://www.greenspeed.us/bionx_motor_bike_kit.htm at the renewable energy fair this weekend. The guy let me ride it
and I found myself with that familiar EV grin. This was the 36V 350W hub motor with the lithium ion pack. I don't know the AH
capacity of the pack but the guy said it would do about 7 unassisted miles on flat ground. The pack looks to be about 2-3 times
the size of the Dewalt 36v pack so I would guess the Dewalt 36V pack might get a light person with a light bike and good racing
tires maybe a couple miles, more if you pedal a little. Let me tell you though, 350W was enough to zing me pretty fast across the
grass. Keep in mind when reading the specs on this website, the system is designed to "assist" the rider meaning it will
automatically put out a % of the power you put in. If you want it to put out 200% of your input power, you still have to put in
power of your own. 200% of nothing is , well, nothing. It does however have a manual thumb switch which you can lay down on and
get full power with no input of your own. Just jamb down and hold on.

Read this article to get some ideas how you could get the most out of a single Dewalt pack.
www.home.gci.net/~saintbernard/The_Aerodynamics_of_Human_Powered_Land_Vehicles_Full_Document.pdf

This sounds like a good project for a highschool competition, or some experiments on how far you can go with a single 36V Dewalt
pack :) Maybe have voltage classes at multiples of single 36V pack voltages.

Anyone up for a challenge?

> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
>
> oooh sour grapes from the dubester : ) be prepared to be bitch slapped
> for your insolence : )
>
> quick googling indicates that typical human biking power is around
> 80watt going 12mph. efficiency aside that would be about an hour with a
> dewalt pack right? let's say we get only half, how long is that... : )
> this ebike: http://www.wheelzofcelebration.com/products.html with a
> 360Wh pack (little over 4 dewalt packs) claims towards 25 mile range.
> how much is a quarter of that? is it 1 mile? : )
>
> he shoots, he scores : )
>
> Dan
>
> Bill Dube wrote:
> > Almost nothing in Dan's post below is correct.
> >
>
> it doesn't have to be power optimal to be the best solution
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter #8
Looking at the site it says 28 miles with 200% assist with a 36V 9.6Ah pack
assuming the figures are correct that's about 18 2/3 miles pure EV which =

for a dewalt pack roughly 4 times smaller is about 4=BDmiles
it doesn't say which speed that is at but still

Dan

Mike Willmon wrote:
> I saw a BionX http://www.greenspeed.us/bionx_motor_bike_kit.htm at the re=
newable energy fair this weekend. The guy let me ride it and I found mysel=
f with that familiar EV grin. This was the 36V 350W hub motor with the li=
thium ion pack. I don't know the AH capacity of the pack but the guy said =
it would do about 7 unassisted miles on flat ground. The pack looks to be =
about 2-3 times the size of the Dewalt 36v pack so I would guess the Dewalt=
36V pack might get a light person with a light bike and good racing tires =
maybe a couple miles, more if you pedal a little. =


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Discussion Starter #9
Owens, Jerry wrote:
> I would like to build a small project with my two sons. I am not ready
> to convert my car just yet, but I was thinking of converting a bicycle
> to a hybrid electric/peddled machine. My question for the group is what
> do I need to build a project on the cheep side. How big of a motor is
> needed, how much battery power, and what type of controller. It would be
> great if the bike would also carry my 200lb self the three miles each
> way to and from work without needing a recharge. Any advice would be
> appreciated.

This is a great way to get started. Electrics make great simple vehicles.

What *type* of vehicle would you like? What would be the most
interesting and appropriate for your sons? Electric bike, motor scooter,
go-kart, ATV, NEV, etc.

For years I've been mentoring 4th-6th graders (8 to 12 year olds) to
build electric vehicles. See www.bestoutreach.com for details. They are
amazingly creative contraptions! It generally takes them 10-20 hours,
and costs under $100. The vehicles typically go 10-20 mph and have a
range of 10 miles or more. They use a surplus 12v sealed battery, one or
two automotive motors rated 12v at 15 amps or so, and a variety of
scrounged and recycled parts from old bicycles, scrap lumber, used pipe,
old furniture, metal shelving, etc.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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Discussion Starter #10
Lee,

Thanks for the information. I was thinking of a bicycle because I have
one laying around, but I think the boys may prefer something like a
go-kart. Out of curiosity, what are you using for a motor and batteries?


Jerry

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 11:47 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Small first time EV project suggestions.

Owens, Jerry wrote:
> I would like to build a small project with my two sons. I am not ready
> to convert my car just yet, but I was thinking of converting a bicycle
> to a hybrid electric/peddled machine. My question for the group is
what
> do I need to build a project on the cheep side. How big of a motor is
> needed, how much battery power, and what type of controller. It would
be
> great if the bike would also carry my 200lb self the three miles each
> way to and from work without needing a recharge. Any advice would be
> appreciated.

This is a great way to get started. Electrics make great simple
vehicles.

What *type* of vehicle would you like? What would be the most
interesting and appropriate for your sons? Electric bike, motor scooter,

go-kart, ATV, NEV, etc.

For years I've been mentoring 4th-6th graders (8 to 12 year olds) to
build electric vehicles. See www.bestoutreach.com for details. They are
amazingly creative contraptions! It generally takes them 10-20 hours,
and costs under $100. The vehicles typically go 10-20 mph and have a
range of 10 miles or more. They use a surplus 12v sealed battery, one or

two automotive motors rated 12v at 15 amps or so, and a variety of
scrounged and recycled parts from old bicycles, scrap lumber, used pipe,

old furniture, metal shelving, etc.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


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Discussion Starter #11
Owens, Jerry wrote:
> Out of curiosity, what are you using for a motor and batteries?

All different ones; it depends on what got donated or what we could find
a good "deal" on as surplus. We want every team have the same battery,
circuit breaker, and motors.

The batteries are always sealed AGM lead-acids, usually 12v and 30ah or
more. We install a 20a or 30a circuit breaker right on the battery, so
kids can't do too much harm by shorting them. This also insures that
every team has the same voltage and current, thus the same power. That
way, it's fair no matter what or how many motors or controllers they use.

The motors have been various automotive grade 12v motors, the type used
for heater blower and radiator fans. One year we had windshield wiper
gearmotors from some big truck or RV. Another year we had a bunch of
surplus EV Warrior electric bike motors (which were really Ford radiator
fan motors).

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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