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70 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
David,

Thanks for the feedback. I agree that the root cause is the wrong clamp
style for the posts. Part of the problem is that I have the wrong post type
for the cables I'm using. In Trojan's terminology these are Low Profile
Terminal as found at
http://www.trojanbattery.com/Products/terminal_types.aspx

I made the mistake of using cables that were designed for AP terminals.

An interesting twist on this is that I did replace the first battery that
had a melted post. The new posts (same battery, supposedly, but different
posts) was the Universal Terminal type. This is a much better fit for the
cable connection, but was one of the first posts to melt after replacement.

If I were to continue to use these style posts, I'd want to go with lug
terminal connectors that would bolt on. However, I'm not confident that this
would improve the situation if the posts are made of cast lead, which I
believe they are.

It may be worth a try if it didn't cost too much to have "a good battery
shop" fix the bad batteries. I just don't want to spend a lot of money when
I'll be laying out over $20K on a Leaf in about a year.

I'll keep listening to the advice I receive here and look at all options.

Greg

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 1:22 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solution to Melted battery posts

Greg,

Your batteries aren't the best for the application, but I don't think that's

the cause of your post-melting problem.

The fact that it's always a negative post which melts is a dead giveaway.
My guess is that all you really need to do is put the proper size clamps on
the negative cables. They're probably positive-size clamps and don't make
good contact.

You'll also want to repair or replace the damaged batteries. If you haven't

let them sit for a long time while discharged (which would cause sulfation),

a good battery shop can cast new terminals onto the "stumps" and make them
usable again.

I'd hate to see you give up on an EV for something as minor as this.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" an "etpost" addresses will not
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Registered
Joined
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Hello Greg,

The cable lugs connected to the stud on the low profile post will not work.
I had these type of post on my Trojans. The specs say to tighten them to
95-105 inch lbs, but at 75 inch lbs some of them started to turn and pull
out.

I found that the stud was a standard hex head bolt that was only embedded
about 1/16 to 1/8 inch below the surface of the pad.

I call the Trojan tech line and he actually said these batteries are not
design for a street type electric vehicle. The studs in the AP high post
are rated for this torque of 95-105 lbs, but these low profile post are to
be only hand tighten with the wing nut.

For a fix, I purchase all positive battery clamps that I can open up a bit
with a battery clamp spreader and install them around the 3/8 inch pad. I
want to use my battery links that had the cable lugs on them, so I purchase
from the WirthCo at www.wirthco.com the Quick Fit Gold-Plated Battery
Terminal clamps #22206 - Positive only. This clamps are a 1/2 inch narrow
band with grooves that grip this low profile post. Back in 2002, I paid
$1.75 each for them if you order a standard pack. I had to have 60 of them
for my pack of 30 batteries.

They come with a 5/16 inch stud that is actually a hex head bolt threaded in
from the bottom of this battery clamp. Instead of using the wing nut, I
install a stainless flat washer, lock washer and nut. The clamping nut and
bolt is a 10mm size. Was a little too short to get this clamp open enough
to get it over the low profile battery post, so I use a longer bolt which I
to clamp the battery clamp which press ring groves into the battery post. I
then can remove this longer bolt and install the gold plated shorter bolt.

Install these type of battery clamps, the battery clamp was about 1/8 inch
higher than the top of the battery post. So I place in a lead washer I made
by turning 1/8 inch lead wire that you can get from a fish and tackle store
which is use for making lead weights.

This lead washer went around the stud and place a stainless steel washer,
lock washer and nut on this stud. I just tighten down enough to keep the
battery clamp from slipping off. Then you can tighten the battery clamp as
hard as you want. This put addition pressure one the hex head stud, where I
can actually torque this down which puts additional battery clamp pressure
against the base of the low profile stud.

I just replace these batteries with the US-6 volt T-145's and gave them to a
guy for his EV.

You can see this type of battery clamp on the low profile post at:

http://go-ev.net/pics/016.html

Roland




----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Tyler" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 11:08 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Solution to Melted battery posts - Post style


> David,
>
> Thanks for the feedback. I agree that the root cause is the wrong clamp
> style for the posts. Part of the problem is that I have the wrong post
> type
> for the cables I'm using. In Trojan's terminology these are Low Profile
> Terminal as found at
> http://www.trojanbattery.com/Products/terminal_types.aspx
>
> I made the mistake of using cables that were designed for AP terminals.
>
> An interesting twist on this is that I did replace the first battery that
> had a melted post. The new posts (same battery, supposedly, but different
> posts) was the Universal Terminal type. This is a much better fit for the
> cable connection, but was one of the first posts to melt after
> replacement.
>
> If I were to continue to use these style posts, I'd want to go with lug
> terminal connectors that would bolt on. However, I'm not confident that
> this
> would improve the situation if the posts are made of cast lead, which I
> believe they are.
>
> It may be worth a try if it didn't cost too much to have "a good battery
> shop" fix the bad batteries. I just don't want to spend a lot of money
> when
> I'll be laying out over $20K on a Leaf in about a year.
>
> I'll keep listening to the advice I receive here and look at all options.
>
> Greg
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf
> Of EVDL Administrator
> Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 1:22 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solution to Melted battery posts
>
> Greg,
>
> Your batteries aren't the best for the application, but I don't think
> that's
>
> the cause of your post-melting problem.
>
> The fact that it's always a negative post which melts is a dead giveaway.
> My guess is that all you really need to do is put the proper size clamps
> on
> the negative cables. They're probably positive-size clamps and don't make
> good contact.
>
> You'll also want to repair or replace the damaged batteries. If you
> haven't
>
> let them sit for a long time while discharged (which would cause
> sulfation),
>
> a good battery shop can cast new terminals onto the "stumps" and make them
> usable again.
>
> I'd hate to see you give up on an EV for something as minor as this.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" an "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3126 - Release Date: 09/11/10
> 02:34:00
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
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| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Registered
Joined
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Greg Tyler wrote:
> ... I have the wrong post type for the cables I'm using. In Trojan's
> terminology these are Low Profile Terminals as found at
> http://www.trojanbattery.com/Products/terminal_types.aspx
> I made the mistake of using cables that were designed for AP terminals.

Aha. That is indeed a problem. There isn't enough contact area in the
low profile posts to carry high current.

> I did replace the first battery that had a melted post. The new posts
> was the Universal Terminal type. This is a much better fit for the
> cable connection, but was one of the first posts to melt after replacement.

But again, it has much less contact area than a real automotive post.

> If I were to continue to use these style posts, I'd want to go with lug
> terminal connectors that would bolt on. However, I'm not confident that
> this would improve the situation if the posts are made of cast lead,
> which I believe they are.

That is correct, Going to a ring terminal on a 5/16" stud is a step in
the wrong direction.

> It may be worth a try if it didn't cost too much to have "a good battery
> shop" fix the bad batteries. I just don't want to spend a lot of money when
> I'll be laying out over $20K on a Leaf in about a year.

Understood. But recognize that an "old master" could cast a new
automotive post onto your old batteries in just a few minutes each.

What kind of terminals do you have on your wires? Are they also cast
lead, or something better? Also, how are the wires attached to these
terminals? Just bolted (the so-called "emergency" repair terminals sold
for car starting batteries)? Or are they crimped and/or soldered?

Best case: You have good cast copper terminals, with 1/0 or 2/0 wire
properly crimped into them. They all test good when you measure the
resistance between the terminal and the crimp. In this case, I would
have automotive posts cast onto the batteries, and re-use your old
terminals and wires.

Worst case: You have junky cast lead terminals, and smaller gauge wire,
which is poorly crimped or corroding. In this case, throw them away. Get
some flat copper buss bar material, about 1/8" thick and 1.5" wide.
Drill a hole in each end that lets it fit over your battery's stubby
low-profile posts. (Positive and negative will be slightly different
sizes). Clean 'em, flux 'em, and dunk these bars in molten solder or
lead to coat them.

Bend the bars into _/\_ shapes so they will fit between the batteries,
and aren't flat (the bends allow the batteries to move slightly relative
to each other, so it won't break the seals and make the batteries leak).

Drop the bar over the batteries, and heat the end of the stubby post
with an acetylene torch to melt it. The lead will melt, and "weld" the
post to the buss bar. You have to use a hot acetylene torch for this,
because it has to be done FAST -- just a few seconds at most, our you'll
melt the entire post.

You can't remove the batteries without cutting the buss bar, but I
guarantee you won't have any more terminal failures! This is how
industrial EV batteries are connected, because it is so reliable.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

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Registered
Joined
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Lee,

Thanks for the feedback.

In response to your questions, "What kind of terminals do you have on your
wires? Are they also cast lead, or something better? Also, how are the wires
attached to these terminals? Just bolted (the so-called "emergency" repair
terminals sold for car starting batteries)? Or are they crimped and/or
soldered?"

The terminals are definitely better than cast lead. I believe they are
plated copper. The cable is 2/0 and quite flexible, so I believe it's
welding cable. Although I haven't tried any strength tests on them as
recommended in response to my earlier query, I believe they are very solidly
crimped.

So, I will look around for an "old master." If I can find one, and get all
my batteries recast with the correct posts, all I'll have to do is clean,
and maybe reshape my existing cable terminals and replace any that can't be
reshaped to the right size. I think the existing cables do have the
different sizes of terminals for positive and negative, so I'll have to
watch that when having the posts recast.

Greg

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Lee Hart
Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 5:24 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solution to Melted battery posts - Post style

Greg Tyler wrote:
> ... I have the wrong post type for the cables I'm using. In Trojan's
> terminology these are Low Profile Terminals as found at
> http://www.trojanbattery.com/Products/terminal_types.aspx
> I made the mistake of using cables that were designed for AP terminals.

Aha. That is indeed a problem. There isn't enough contact area in the
low profile posts to carry high current.

> I did replace the first battery that had a melted post. The new posts
> was the Universal Terminal type. This is a much better fit for the
> cable connection, but was one of the first posts to melt after
replacement.

But again, it has much less contact area than a real automotive post.

> If I were to continue to use these style posts, I'd want to go with lug
> terminal connectors that would bolt on. However, I'm not confident that
> this would improve the situation if the posts are made of cast lead,
> which I believe they are.

That is correct, Going to a ring terminal on a 5/16" stud is a step in
the wrong direction.

> It may be worth a try if it didn't cost too much to have "a good battery
> shop" fix the bad batteries. I just don't want to spend a lot of money
when
> I'll be laying out over $20K on a Leaf in about a year.

Understood. But recognize that an "old master" could cast a new
automotive post onto your old batteries in just a few minutes each.

What kind of terminals do you have on your wires? Are they also cast
lead, or something better? Also, how are the wires attached to these
terminals? Just bolted (the so-called "emergency" repair terminals sold
for car starting batteries)? Or are they crimped and/or soldered?

Best case: You have good cast copper terminals, with 1/0 or 2/0 wire
properly crimped into them. They all test good when you measure the
resistance between the terminal and the crimp. In this case, I would
have automotive posts cast onto the batteries, and re-use your old
terminals and wires.

Worst case: You have junky cast lead terminals, and smaller gauge wire,
which is poorly crimped or corroding. In this case, throw them away. Get
some flat copper buss bar material, about 1/8" thick and 1.5" wide.
Drill a hole in each end that lets it fit over your battery's stubby
low-profile posts. (Positive and negative will be slightly different
sizes). Clean 'em, flux 'em, and dunk these bars in molten solder or
lead to coat them.

Bend the bars into _/\_ shapes so they will fit between the batteries,
and aren't flat (the bends allow the batteries to move slightly relative
to each other, so it won't break the seals and make the batteries leak).

Drop the bar over the batteries, and heat the end of the stubby post
with an acetylene torch to melt it. The lead will melt, and "weld" the
post to the buss bar. You have to use a hot acetylene torch for this,
because it has to be done FAST -- just a few seconds at most, our you'll
melt the entire post.

You can't remove the batteries without cutting the buss bar, but I
guarantee you won't have any more terminal failures! This is how
industrial EV batteries are connected, because it is so reliable.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3126 - Release Date: 09/11/10
02:34:00

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I have fixed melted posts myself! make a form out of heavey gage tin, then =
seal =

around bottom with duct sealand pour hot lead in.E have a repaired post =
that is =

2 years old. Then file or shape posts.It is a little work but well worth it=
! =

good luck!
72 datsun Electk =





________________________________
From: Greg Tyler <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sat, September 11, 2010 11:08:22 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Solution to Melted battery posts - Post style

David,

Thanks for the feedback. I agree that the root cause is the wrong clamp
style for the posts. Part of the problem is that I have the wrong post type
for the cables I'm using. In Trojan's terminology these are Low Profile
Terminal as found at
http://www.trojanbattery.com/Products/terminal_types.aspx

I made the mistake of using cables that were designed for AP terminals.

An interesting twist on this is that I did replace the first battery that
had a melted post. The new posts (same battery, supposedly, but different
posts) was the Universal Terminal type. This is a much better fit for the
cable connection, but was one of the first posts to melt after replacement.

If I were to continue to use these style posts, I'd want to go with lug
terminal connectors that would bolt on. However, I'm not confident that this
would improve the situation if the posts are made of cast lead, which I
believe they are.

It may be worth a try if it didn't cost too much to have "a good battery
shop" fix the bad batteries. I just don't want to spend a lot of money when
I'll be laying out over $20K on a Leaf in about a year.

I'll keep listening to the advice I receive here and look at all options.

Greg

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 1:22 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solution to Melted battery posts

Greg,

Your batteries aren't the best for the application, but I don't think that's

the cause of your post-melting problem. =


The fact that it's always a negative post which melts is a dead giveaway.=
=

My guess is that all you really need to do is put the proper size clamps on =

the negative cables. They're probably positive-size clamps and don't mak=
e =

good contact. =


You'll also want to repair or replace the damaged batteries. If you have=
n't

let them sit for a long time while discharged (which would cause sulfation),

a good battery shop can cast new terminals onto the "stumps" and make them =

usable again.

I'd hate to see you give up on an EV for something as minor as this. =


David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

=3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D=
=3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
=3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D=
=3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =

Note: mail sent to "evpost" an "etpost" addresses will not =

reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my =

email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
=3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D=
=3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D


_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com =

Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3126 - Release Date: 09/11/10
02:34:00

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



=

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